4300 PTO won't disengage.

[billt102]

OK, Right off the bat, I have a bad feeling that i am going to hate how this discussion ends up.

Yesterday I hooked up the brush hog to my 4300 (standard trans, synch-reverser) for the first time since I bought the tractor in January. I pushed in the clutch with the tractor at idle engaged the PTO.
Immediately the shaft started turning... odd i thought, seems like the PTO should not engage until the clutch is released.

i started off to mowing... about a ten minutes in, i noticed my brush hog was losing its momentum everytime i hit heavy brush. I looked down and it looked like the PTO lever was not pushed completely forward. I idled down, pushed in the clutch and shoved the lever forward. it seemed to "lock in" and I'm thinking, that's weird, guess it either slipped out or was never engaged all the way, anyway it did not lose momentum any more after that, it was fully engaged and mowed great.

well when I was done with one area I tried to disengage the PTO lever and it would move back freely a little ways and then just stopped like the linkage was bound.

Sensing "issues" i took the tractor, pto still running the mower, to a decent place where I could work on it and turned it off, thinking maybe it would disengage with the tractor off. Nothing. could not get it to disengage. Better yet it will not start, of course, with the PTO engaged.

Anyone have a similar issue? is it possible it is a linkage issue?

IF it is the dreaded PTO clutch issue known to plague 4300's would it meet these symptoms? I heard no noise from it. no clunk, no grinding. I am hoping it is linkage related, but the fact that the PTO does not disengage with the clutch... well that sounds like PTO clutch.
Thanks guys. I still have not finished my FEL hydraulic rebuild project that I have another thread on... wanted to get some grading and shredding done before i took the thing out of service...

 

[jd110]

First of all, the foot clutch does not release the pto. The 4x00 series have an independent clutch setup. The pto lever engages the pto clutch. I would first check that there is nothing obstructing the movement of the pto lever. If the lever and linkage are clear, I would then lubricate all the pivot points on the linkage. If that doesn't help, then you have an internal clutch problem.

 

[arrabil]

I second the lubrication. I would get some kind of silicone spray onto every moving part of every linkage under there. I had to do it three times over the course of a three months before I was happy with all the knobs and levers. And I mean saturate the crap out of them.

 

[kennyd]

Get some Fluid Film:thumbsup:

 

[billt102]

OK.
This is the first time I have used the PTO. Every other tractor i have ever used (not an extensive list) engaged and disengaged the pto with the clutch I was pretty sure it was the linkage, the "bind" feels like it is right at the bottom of the lever.

that is better news than I expected. I will get the pesky cover off this afternoon and see what i find.

 

[beenthere]

Do you have the mid-PTO on this model?

Like already said, the PTO clutch is separate from the tractor clutch. There are three positions to the PTO lever. Forward is engaged, mid-position is neutral (the PTO shaft will turn free) and full-back which is disengaged and braked.

The mid-PTO engages/disengages mechanically and cannot be engaged when the Rear PTO is running. Grinding of gears and possible damage. The idea is to engage the mid-PTO and then operate it with the PTO lever in one of the three positions.

Hope you find it binding, and no internal damage.

 

[billt102]

Yes it does have the mid PTO. and the mid pto was disengaged (the lever pushed down).
I will let you know how it comes out.

 

[billt102]

It is not the linkage. The "lever" outside the case is moving about 10 degrees, but it appears to be hitting something solid. seems like that rod is maybe out of line with whatever it pushes or pulls to engage or disengage the PTO clutch internally.

SO IN I GO. I guess i will go in through the back. I am going to read the "4300 rebuild" post as i know he rebuilt the PTO clutch. hopefully it is not too major.

 

[mr.offroad]

Got a manual? read up on one online otherwise. No surprises as to how they operate, then!:thumbsup:

 

[beenthere]

billt102
Attached are a couple pages from the tech manual, on PTO clutch and brake removal.

Thought the least I could do was post them for a place for you to start.

 

[dfkrug]

You can access the PTO brake thru the rear cover, and you may be
able to see the problem from there. You take off the PTO gears
and the rear bulkhead. If you have to remove the clutch, that
requires taking the 3-pt cyl housing off. When you remove the rear
cover, you may find your broken parts in the bottom of the gearcase.

In this photo, you can see me removing the brake basket from the
rear (snap ring pliers reqd). At the top you can see some of the
fingers or pawls that may be your problem. They can hang up or
brake off.

BEENTHERE's manual photos should help, too.

 

[dfkrug]

Here is the photo I mentioned.

 

[billt102]

OK, thanks for the manual photos beenthere. very helpful. I was going to pull the rock shaft housing off the top, as you did in your rebuild dfkrug, but I may just remove it from the back per the manual, that looks pretty simple. I can tell the fork is hitting something solid inside, I know that much. I'll get her apart and see what i find.

 

[billt102]

ya I got a manual but it doesn't go into much detail about wether the pto disengages with the clutch or not. Seemed like it SHOULD work that way but guess its just the 9n, massey 245 and JD 4020 in me... call me old school.

 

[dfkrug]

ya I got a manual but it doesn't go into much detail about wether the pto disengages with the clutch or not.

Bill, the PTO control lever is designed to be engaged or braked....there
is no neutral in between. The springs that hold the shifter in either
position are quite strong. If the lever can hold the shifter between
engaged and braked, there is already something wrong.

This is an unusual PTO mechanism for any tractor, and there were lots
of problems with it. Enough problems that JD dumped it on the 4x10
models. Mine is fixed, but it still does not always engage smoothly. It
works better if the the oil is warmed up and flowing (splashing).

To start and use your tractor in the interim, you need to put a jumper
across the PTO safety switch on the left upper side of the gearcase. You
can see the switch (with the connector off) in this photo on the left edge
of the picture.

 

[defed]

Bill, the PTO control lever is designed to be engaged or braked....there is no neutral in between. The springs that hold the shifter in either position are quite strong. If the lever can hold the shifter between
engaged and braked, there is already something wrong.

my 4300 does have a neutral position...which i believe is PTO OFF, but not braked. it free spins, but w/ no real power. it is in between ENGAGED and OFF BRAKED.

 

[beenthere]

I agree with you defed. My 4300 clearly has a neutral position, but am thinking either later models may have that either/or lever. The lever has a distinct position for engage, and disengage (braked) with a neutral spot resting in between. It snaps into engage as well as braked with a distinct feel to it. My 4300 is an older model ('99)

Might it have come along with the ehydro?

 

[dfkrug]

I agree with you defed. My 4300 clearly has a neutral position, but am thinking either later models may have that either/or lever. The lever has a distinct position for engage, and disengage (braked) with a neutral spot resting in between. It snaps into engage as well as braked with a distinct feel to it. My 4300 is an older model ('99)

Might it have come along with the ehydro?

Mine is a 2000 model with HST. The 4x10s (eHydro and Gear) have gone
to a PTO system that uses electric control.

I went back to the owner's manual when you guys reported having a PTO
lever neutral positon. There is no reference to a Neutral anywhere for
either Gear or HST tractors. All mention of engagement/disengagement
of the rear PTO told of an Off position and an On position only. In one
place, the OM talked of pushing in the foot clutch on a Gear model before
moving the PTO lever to On. Then there is this photo in the manual, which
shows the PTO lever in a middle position, which is marked with some
unreadable graphic. My tractor's plastics are all new, so I don't have this
graphic. Does anyone else?

When I reassembled my PTO clutch/brake system, but before I put the
3-pt cylinder cover back on, I operated the PTO control lever repeatedly
to make sure everything worked. There was no middle (neutral) position.
Perhaps there are some variants that DO have a neutral, but I suspect that
some systems are just not working correctly.

One final note: I was working on the 4300 yesterday (subframe fab) and
I operated the PTO lever. It has always been balky, esp when going to
the OFF position. It engaged OK, but it did not want to go OFF for a while
as the tractor warmed up. I did not want to force the lever and break it.
Eventually, I got it to disengage.

 

[defed]

i have a 2001 4300. in my manual, it does not say anything about a neutral. it does have the 3 graphics as your picture shows. one is obviously engaged, the other off, the middle one is a picture of a tractor w/ an arrow in the middle. i have to go check for sure, i can't remember exactly what it is. i can get a pic this wkend that shows it better.

i did ask about this on this forum and it was said that it is a neutral so you can spin it by hand w/ the engine off to align implements easier. granted, beenthere said it in both threads. :laughing:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...ng/166556-power-take-off-lever-positions.html

 

[dfkrug]

i have a 2001 4300. in my manual, it does not say anything about a neutral. it does have the 3 graphics as your picture shows. one is obviously engaged, the other off, the middle one is a picture of a tractor w/ an arrow in the middle. i have to go check for sure, i can't remember exactly what it is. i can get a pic this wkend that shows it better.

i did ask about this on this forum and it was said that it is a neutral so you can spin it by hand w/ the engine off to align implements easier. granted, beenthere said it in both threads.

I found the graphic. It is as you said: a tractor pictograph. The arrow
is pointing at the rear of the tractor. Just a complicated way to say, "rear
PTO".

The PTO brake basket on my 4300 is designed to freely rotate maybe 120
degrees while the PTO is Off (braked) so you can turn the PTO shaft by
hand to get the driveshaft to go on. It is not a neutral.