A Battery Rejuvenator

[ETpilot]

Well, this circuit is not my own. It was posted on an aviation website and I copied it. The person that posted it had used it often. Others had used it. I just made one and it seemed to work for me. I have used it often too. Since posting this the negative side of it has emerged. So I am using it with caution based on the info here and on the other thread.

I did add a fuse today. First I used 1/2 amp fast acting fuse. It blew as I plugged it in. I then put in 1.5 amp and that worked. I use this in a well ventilated area and now outside the shop.

I will probably just retire it after reading here and on the other side. Maybe not a good idea after all.

 

[Treemonkey1000]

Your fuse may vary depending on how depleted the battery is. The one posting with the Smart charger for $30 may be a worthwhile investment. I have to keep a trickle charger on my Kubota right now because the battery is tired. I did take it to my Auto parts store a few months ago to have it tested because it wouldn't start the tractor. They said it was weak but they could put it on their "pulse charger" and see if that would help. It was free. I picked it up a couple of hours later and it started the tractor no problem. My guess it is just a smart charger with enough power to basically dump larger charging pulses into the battery. Can't say for sure as I didn't see what they hooked it up to. Saved having to buy a $180 dollar battery that day was fine with me.

 

[user.69169]

Have you seen what happens when two metal objects are close together in a microwave, it arcs and sparks. So now, you are planning on putting a battery in a microwave. If there is any hydrogen gas in there at all, I think you will explode the microwave. . What was it that Steven Segal made up and put in the microwave in the movie about the battleship and submarine. Anyway, it blew up his kitchen.

I went and measured, and there is about 8" between them metal battery posts. Are you saying that those are close enough to rach other to spark or are you saying they might spark to the top of the microbox?

If its a matter of sparking I can put some good electric tape on them metal terminals, still got a few rolls tucked under the bed from when a relative worked at the power company before they went bankrupt.

 

[J_J]

I am talking about anything metal, including inside the battery, etc.

 

[Ken]

I have been reading and thinking this battery ideas need to go back to how is a battery built. in each cell of the battery there is a lead rivit to connect to next cell inside the battery. when the cell fails to provide its voltage the connection inside the battery has opened. when current is applied this is where the spark will cause a explosion. Older batterys this was done on top of battery but the new Chinese cheap made for Wal-Mart type batterys there is almost no clearance for the material that falls off the plates to build up on the bottom. so guickly fails. if warrenty is 1 year there research has determined this is how long it will provide current. then time to replace. some longer usually not.
Putting a/c voltage across a battery about the same as putting voltage on fuse wire connected to stick of explosive material. if there is a open connection inside and spark developes any hydrogen inside will explode.
Kitchen table expermints using half baked ideas usually get bad results.

Just my 2 cents worth
ken

 

[ETpilot]

I have been reading and thinking this battery ideas need to go back to how is a battery built. in each cell of the battery there is a lead rivit to connect to next cell inside the battery. when the cell fails to provide its voltage the connection inside the battery has opened. when current is applied this is where the spark will cause a explosion. Older batterys this was done on top of battery but the new Chinese cheap made for Wal-Mart type batterys there is almost no clearance for the material that falls off the plates to build up on the bottom. so guickly fails. if warrenty is 1 year there research has determined this is how long it will provide current. then time to replace. some longer usually not.
Putting a/c voltage across a battery about the same as putting voltage on fuse wire connected to stick of explosive material. if there is a open connection inside and spark developes any hydrogen inside will explode.
Kitchen table expermints using half baked ideas usually get bad results.

Just my 2 cents worth
ken

You are probably right. I have already decided not to use this device again and not do the battery test. Bad idea.


I guess it was good to post this as I got other points of view on this device. All told it seems more negative than positive. I think I will move on to other projects.

 

[kenstrac]

You are probably right. I have already decided not to use this device again and not do the battery test. Bad idea.


I guess it was good to post this as I got other points of view on this device. All told it seems more negative than positive. I think I will move on to other projects.

Today, 08:29 AM #46 (permalink)
Ken
Silver Member


Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: North Central Arkansas
Posts: 140 Re: A Battery Rejuvenator

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I have been reading and thinking this battery ideas need to go back to how is a battery built. in each cell of the battery there is a lead rivit to connect to next cell inside the battery. when the cell fails to provide its voltage the connection inside the battery has opened. when current is applied this is where the spark will cause a explosion. Older batterys this was done on top of battery but the new Chinese cheap made for Wal-Mart type batterys there is almost no clearance for the material that falls off the plates to build up on the bottom. so guickly fails. if warrenty is 1 year there research has determined this is how long it will provide current. then time to replace. some longer usually not.
Putting a/c voltage across a battery about the same as putting voltage on fuse wire connected to stick of explosive material. if there is a open connection inside and spark developes any hydrogen inside will explode.
Kitchen table expermints using half baked ideas usually get bad results.

Just my 2 cents worth
ken


NOW this is the smartest thing in this whole thread DON'T DO IT!
I was waiting for the next thread on this to be in the safety forum under BATTERY BLOWS UP IN FACE!

 

[Ken]

Gentlemen I didn't want to be this blunt on batterys. But have worked around Stand/by Gen. that when shut off after several days/months of service had to wait for battery to cool or it would blow up as soon as the start switch was flipped. Hydrogen is dangerous.
Saw the hood blown off a car loose battery connection was determined the cause. it sparked as trying to start and the battery gas blew.
Some time when nothing to do carefully remove the top of a car battery. there is only a lead rivit to connect the cells and and if in manufactue this rivit is not properly attached it will wear so no connection made then a charger on the battery will re weld the connection temperary only to again open. The sediment on bottom will cause the battery to weaken but it is what has fallen off the plates so current cannot flow in cell.
Low water is cause of battery failure more so than any other thing I know.
Station battery supplies for power usually have a small amouint of mineral oil on top to keep the water from evaporating.

If there were a method to prolong a battery the world would beat a path to your door.And I'm fairly sure it is not 60 cyc. a/c.

again my 2 cents worth
ken

 

[J_J]

Although some are trying to condemn ETpilot for wanting to test a theory, it is just that, a test, and there are always risk. To set this straight, does anyone know what would happen if you apply 120 V AC to a battery through three light bulbs with a shorted diode. The current through this battery will be the resistance of the battery, and the resistance of the light bulbs. The AC voltage might forced the voltage to go to zero due to the AC voltage shifting between neg and positive cycles.

If one wants to know, let him test, and give us the results. I was a Navy aviation electronics technician for about 12 years, and I did many experiments. On this particular circuit, with the AC on the battery, I have no idea what will happen. If some of you know what will happen, you have not mentioned the exact results.

Speaking of batteries exploding and causing a fire.

I had a golf cart on charge, and when I returned, the golf cart was destroyed by fire. My only conclusion was that when charging, hydrogen gas was generated, and a spark from something set it off. I now know to lift the seat when charging, so the gas can not collect under there and perhaps explode.

Anyway, if this circuit does work at rejuvenating a battery, then it is a good thing.
The fuse or circuit breaker is an added safety feature. I think we all have had bad or unusable batteries, that could have been rejuvenated, and we all should have one of these units.

I believe the same principle works on the cordless drill batteries, to extend the life cycle. Unless you use those batteries often, they will go bad. AT $75 for a drill battery, we need something.

 

[Matt_Jr]

I'm with J_J on this. I think this is a great project. I'm no battery expert, and I know we can't make them last forever, but if there's a way to make them last longer, even just a little bit, I'm for it.

One nice cool saturday morning I was at work, boss just finished charging the battery in a '68 mustang. You know the type. All original, wiped down every weekend, never driven in the rain type. Customer said it was cranking slow. The battery charger was one bought for around $200 with wheels and a big handle to pull around. Topped off the water before charging, measured specific gravity, put the caps back on after charging, reinstalled in the car, shut the hood, owner turned the key and boooooom. Sounded like a shotgun goin off. Water(acid) dripped all down the floor. It was everywhere. I quickly grabbed a 12 pound bag of baking soda(kept for just this reason) and mixed with hot water and spashed it over the whole car and garage floor. We then hosed off everything under the hood and the paint, then everything the acid could have touched. After washing it down, we installed a brand new battery, and the customer thanked me for being so quick with the baking soda. The hood didn't blow off, the window didn't break, the paint is still ok, nothing caught on fire, and nobody got hurt. Cool thing to see, and I was only a few feet from this car when this happend. Not a hundred. It was the first, and last time I ever saw a battery explode.

My point is, if a battery explodes, it can happen with a good charger, or a homemade one. If you keep your distance, be careful, who cares if explodes. Just plug it in waaaay over there. I'm planning on making one of these things. I'm gonna play with it. If all those with great ideas allowed others to shut them down, we wouldn't have a lot of things that we do today. Hey guess what.. ha.. I ride motorcycles. Shhhh, don't tell my mom. I know.. crazy huh?

 

[Egon]

Experiment is fine but on a battery I'm gona use I'll pass.

It would be my luck to have this rejuvenated battery fail at some remote spot and getting everything back to normal would cost much more than the savings achieved by the extended battery life!:thumbsup:

 

[Matt_Jr]

Thanks a lot Egon. That's what's gonna happen to me now.

 

[dcyrilc]

Thanks a lot Egon. That's what's gonna happen to me now.

When it does, just remind yourself that it would have broke down last time you were in a remote location and it saved you the agrivation and expense until now.

 

[patrick_g]

I was a Navy aviation electronics technician for about 12 years, and I did many experiments.

What model of Wright Flyer did the Navy have when you were in?

I was USAF and I think I remember Wilbur and Orville coming to our base to try to sell us airplanes.[/QUOTE

The internal resistance of a battery is quite low (otherwise it would have a difficult time sourcing 100-200 amps or more.)

When a battery is charging the current flow into the battery is reduced by the battery voltage, i.e. if you apply 20 volts through a 10 ohm resister, don't expect anywhere near 2 amps because the battery will subtract its voltage (10-13 or thereabouts depending on state of charge) Say the battery was down to 10 volts, then in the example above you'd be giving it about 1 amp. Don't call the electricity police as Ohm's law is not being violated. You have to use a little 'rithmetic (Algebra?) to account for the "backwards" voltage of the battery which subtracts from the "frontwards" voltage of your charger machine thingy.

Need proof? Put three flashlight batts in series but with one of them backwards to the other two. (They are about 1.5 volts each. Measure the voltage across the combination and you'll see it is equal to about one batt, i.e. 2-1=1 and there is no Magic Conveyor Belt involved.

Pat

 

[Redbug]

I have had this page bookmarked, but have never tried it. Then I ran across this thread.
Lead_Acid_Car_Battery_Repair

The magnesium sulfate helps dissolve the sulfation. Think it works?
What say you?

 

[J_J]

I was a Navy aviation electronics technician for about 12 years, and I did many experiments.

What model of Wright Flyer did the Navy have when you were in?

I was USAF and I think I remember Wilbur and Orville coming to our base to try to sell us airplanes.[/QUOTE

The internal resistance of a battery is quite low (otherwise it would have a difficult time sourcing 100-200 amps or more.)

When a battery is charging the current flow into the battery is reduced by the battery voltage, i.e. if you apply 20 volts through a 10 ohm resister, don't expect anywhere near 2 amps because the battery will subtract its voltage (10-13 or thereabouts depending on state of charge) Say the battery was down to 10 volts, then in the example above you'd be giving it about 1 amp. Don't call the electricity police as Ohm's law is not being violated. You have to use a little 'rithmetic (Algebra?) to account for the "backwards" voltage of the battery which subtracts from the "frontwards" voltage of your charger machine thingy.

Need proof? Put three flashlight batts in series but with one of them backwards to the other two. (They are about 1.5 volts each. Measure the voltage across the combination and you'll see it is equal to about one batt, i.e. 2-1=1 and there is no Magic Conveyor Belt involved.

Pat

No, I am not that old, but I did stay at the Holiday INN, and I did fly in P2V, and P3C aircraft for about 22 years.

Now tell me Patrick, have you ever charged a 12 volt battery with 120 v AC? This all started with a circuit to rejuvenate a 12 V lead cell batteries. Now someone said it would be dangerous if the diode shorted, so he was going to test out what would happen. So, if you know for sure what will happen, . by all means go ahead and post your theory. I think you jumped in here not fully informed. I don't discredit what you know, so just tell the true facts as you know them.

 

[Egon]

Golly, I was in an Argus!

 

[WVBill]

...and there is no Magic Conveyor Belt involved.

Pat

Pat - are you trying to revive the "will it take off" thread. :laughing:

 

[patrick_g]

Sorry, JJ, I'm not intending to rile you. Stuff doesn't always come across like we wish it did. I don't claim to be a battery expert but I have some experience and knowledge with them although most of my electronic engineering experience was with much lighter duty circuits than batteries. I did get involved with the design/modifications of a battery operated arc welder and managed to blow the caps off a 12V batt. They went 20 ft in the air and hit the overhead pretty hard. I was lucky not to take any lead shrapnel and get a sulphuric acid shower.

The rejuvenate thingy has some merit but since the circuit is not transformer isolated if anyone (child, pet, user...) touches parts of it or anything connected to it (like if the batt is in the car, plane, whatever) they could be touching 120VAC with no protection except a 15-20 amp breaker. Not a good idea. In fact, it would be Consumer Reports rated lethal, first time every time!

Decades ago when 6 transistor Japanese radios were popular and used up 9 volt "transistor" batteries too quick for my limited funds, I built a battery eliminator. I used the X sub C of a capacitor to make a series voltage drop and a full wave bridge of diodes to rectify the AC to DC and a capacitor to filter the DC. IT worked fine BUT... if any of the metal trim on the radio was connected to the ground of the radio ckt board you could touch it and get a nasty shock. In theory and practice it worked fine but it was not safe. UL would have had a heart attack.

If anyone persists with experimenting with the rejuvenate thingy to be safe they need to get a 1 to 1 transformer capable of handling an amp or two to isolate the line voltage from the test circuit. If you have difficulty finding a 1 to 1 then use two identical transformers and connect their secondaries together. The first will transform the 120 volts to xx volts and the second will transform the xx volts back up to 120. The 120 volt windings need to be able to handle the amp or two you are messing with and the secondaries must be able to handle the same power as the primaries. For instance:

IF the transformer takes 120 down to 12 then the current in the 12 volt winding is 10 times as much as in the 120 volt windings. Suitable transformers are cheap on the surplus market and not that bad new.

There, I did a good deed for the day. I offered a way to experiment without electrocuting yourself (so easily.)

With a fuse or breaker of any reasonable size there will never be 120 volts across the battery. The internal resistance of the battery is very low and will act almost like a short (with a 10-15 volt reverse voltage coming out of it.) Any reasonable size fuse will blow out first.

Dumping the electrolyte, filtering it and returning it to the battery after flushing the battery is a good thing to do if you want to go to the trouble. If I were going to "rejuvenate" my battery I would definitely want to flush it afterward since rejuvenation removes some "gunk" from the plates which in turn falls to the bottom of the battery (if you are lucky it doesn't bridge across the neg to pos of a cell and short it out--- another good reason to flush it.)

Again, I'm sorry if I inadvertently hit a nerve with anyone. This is NOT the proper forum to try to teach a class on battery maintenance. Discussing a rejuvenate thingy is a fine topic here I think. If we have any ex diesel boat submariners on board with battery experience,. they can tell you what is what. I have a friend who rebuilt batteries onboard ship when he was in the Nav but he isn''t interested in getting into the fray. He has some exploding battery stories that are truly amazing.

Pat

 

[Coyote machine]

ETpilot,
To answer a question you posed early on in the discussion of your gizmo- the date of Sept '03 is the put into service date of the battery and NOT the manufacturer's date of manufacture. The date of manufacturer is 'coded' and usually embossed on the edge of the battery case. It is decoded by the manufacturer like a vin on a car.