Grapple HD grapple shopping advice needed

[ManAtArms]

Hi Gang,

I've been following a few grapple threads on TBN with great interest. I'm grapple shopping for my Kubota M59, but I'm seriously concerned that I will bend/break a grapple made from mild steel (A36). This includes HD models from many reputable makers like Markham/Gator, WR Long, Unlimited Fabrication, Wildcat, etc. The "high-end" grapples (Anbo, Eagle Talon, Bradco i.e. - expensive) are all made from T1 or AR400 steel. From my research, it appears that T1 is twice as strong as A36, and AR400 is stronger still.

I知 looking at using the grapple to dig out small trees and roots, move firewood logs (log length, bucked up and splits) and move lots of really big boulders. The M59 has a lift capacity of about 4k.

I致e been talking to various makers of grapples over the last few weeks, and the cost of a T1 or AR400 grapple ($3500 - $5000) is typically 2x that of a HD model from mild steel ($1700 - $2000). I assume the cost of the raw materials (steel plate) explains the difference in price.

The makers of the expensive ones will tell you that mild steel does not belong on a grapple, for example, http://www.skid-steer-solutions.com/White Papers/White Paper - T1 vs AR.pdf

Not having seen any of these T1/AR400 grapples next to a mild steel grapple, I have no idea if this is marketing BS or the truth. I知 not too concerned with how heavy the grapple is, rather if it can take the abuse of lifting and moving 2000lb.+ rocks. At the end of the day I want something that will last for the best price possible. If t1 or AR400 is overkill?I will gladly buy one made from A36 and save quite a bit of cash.

To complicate matters, it appears most of the 塗igh-end grapple designs are of the 途oot rake variety with a single 田law (I think some call it a clamshell). I知 told this design might not be good for picking up bucked up logs and splits. If one piece of wood is positioned such that it stops the complete closure of the grapple before it grabs the rest of the load?t will just lose the pile because the short lower tines will not support a load without the top claw creating pressure.

Here痴 an example of the 途oot rake type (bradco from everythingattachments.com):

Maybe I知 better off with the 澱rush grapple design, with split claws from (bradco from Messicks):

Why are there so many **** grapple designs and names??? This is really confusing.

Does anyone have experience with a mild steel grapple on a loader with 3k or greater lift capacity, or one of the big skid steers or industrial backhoe? How about picking up logs and firewood?

-Mark

 

[dex3361]

I have the Anbo Grapple Root rake and I love using it. You have nailed the shortcoming of the root rake design but they do offer the ability to back rake. Here is a link to a post from some work I did last weekend.
The Anbo is tough and light for its size.

 

[dex3361]

I am able to exceed the capacity of my tractor if I am not careful. It handles what I need it to do very well. Disregard the Jack Russel Terrier I let him run the grapple every now and again or he gets a bit grumpy.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Just my opinion here, but I doubt that you really need an industrial beat the heck out of it everyday grapple. I very well could be wrong, but to be able to make full use of one of the $5K grapples, you would most likely have to abuse your machine and that would be a bad thing.

I have one of the Skid Steer loader Root Grapple Heavy Duty. The extreme duty was not available when I purchased the HD unit. My tractor is about 12,000 lbs and the heavy duty unit has held up fine for me. Now I do not abuse it, have moved a few boulders and parts of downed trees, brush, scrub oak and the like. What I feel has been the hardest on it has been when I have the front edge about 8 inches in the dirt and then move forward to dig up roots and the like, after all it is a Root Rake Grapple.

Believe me, I am a believer in HD implements, had a few medium duty that just ended up costing me more money. I don't know if any of this helps, but I hope that it might.

 

[Cat_Driver]

I got mine here and this thing is bullet proof. Also hey have made some specialty stuff for me, great people to deal with and their prices beat most out there.

Root Grapple

 

[IslandTractor]

I don't understand the fascination with heavy duty grapples for tractors. The M59 is a powerful machine but it is not a bulldozer or skidsteer. The FEL is designed to lift not ram. Why do you think you would need to spend three or four times as much on a heavy duty grapple than a light duty? For that difference in price you could easily buy two light duty grapples (which no one, including a M59 owner) has "broken" yet and have one to use while the other is in the shop for ????needed repairs.

I have a 48" light duty Millonzi grapple on a tractor with 2700lb lift capacity. I have put it to heavy use in digging out rocks, stumps, trees and brush and except for one busted hose (snag) and splaying out the tips of the upper grapple while digging out large rocks (heat, bend back, weld on reinforcing gussets fixed that). The Millonzi is no longer made but it is lighter duty than a slightly beefed up Markham 48 "light duty" ordered with 1/2 inch end tines and extra spacer tines. The Markham is considerably less money than most other grapples on the market now and they have had a pretty uniformly positive experience reported on TBN.

A light duty grapple weighs about 300-350lbs. A heavy duty grapple weighs 500-700lbs and that difference in weight comes right off your net lift capacity. Mild steel can be easily rebent with heat and easily welded. High tech steel becomes fragile with heating so repairs are not likely to be as successful.

Clamshell grapples are nice for collecting small brush as they can compress it but as you noted they are less ideal for assymmetric hard materials and can actually be damaged by applying pressure to an offset rock or stump where the "clam top" gets twisted. Two upper grapples is more flexible but adds weight and cost. A single upper grapple is quite versatile and in four years I have never had any object I could fit into the grapple fail to be clamped. Yes, small stuff will fall down between the bottom tines as it will with any style grapple but anything larger than the bottom tine gap can be securely held for transport with a single upper jaw.

I'd suggest you PM Charlesaf3 who has the same grapple I do on his M59. See what he thinks.

 

[HCJtractor]

After researching many posts here, I bought a Markham a year ago. My M-6800 Kubota 4 WD with loaded tires is pretty heavy and powerful, but it's lift capacity is around 2600 (If I remember correctly) My Markham is the 48" built with 1/2 steel with extra spacer tines. We have really worked this hard uprooting trees, clearing land, moving logs, debris, rocks, etc. Believe me, it has held up to everything we have put it through. Works great. The single top "claw" holds everything securely. I don't see how a double would improve things. Other than a minor bend of one spacer tine, the grapple is untouched. I personally would never spend more on an Anbo or other brand. THis Markham works great and has held up to extreme use.

 

[Charlesaf3]

Island Tractor, who is pretty much the resident grapple expert, is precisely right.

I have the lightest duty Millonzi 48 on my m59. I've bent the tines - no biggie whatever. If I cared I'd bend them back and gusset them. Its not important.

The dozer style grapples are great, but not for what you want - that's more of a fancy york rake if you think about it. For forestry, the millonzi/bradco/markham is much better.

Get a beefed up Markham (from what I've read here). Its the millonzi improved, and perfect for the m59.

And as Island tractor has mentioned elsewhere, no need to get full width, and actually downsides. I have a 48" wide, and wouldn't go much wider.

 

[dex3361]

I don't understand the fascination with heavy duty grapples for tractors. The M59 is a powerful machine but it is not a bulldozer or skidsteer. The FEL is designed to lift not ram. Why do you think you would need to spend three or four times as much on a heavy duty grapple than a light duty? For that difference in price you could easily buy two light duty grapples (which no one, including a M59 owner) has "broken" yet and have one to use while the other is in the shop for ????needed repairs.

I have a 48" light duty Millonzi grapple on a tractor with 2700lb lift capacity. I have put it to heavy use in digging out rocks, stumps, trees and brush and except for one busted hose (snag) and splaying out the tips of the upper grapple while digging out large rocks (heat, bend back, weld on reinforcing gussets fixed that). The Millonzi is no longer made but it is lighter duty than a slightly beefed up Markham 48 "light duty" ordered with 1/2 inch end tines and extra spacer tines. The Markham is considerably less money than most other grapples on the market now and they have had a pretty uniformly positive experience reported on TBN.

A light duty grapple weighs about 300-350lbs. A heavy duty grapple weighs 500-700lbs and that difference in weight comes right off your net lift capacity. Mild steel can be easily rebent with heat and easily welded. High tech steel becomes fragile with heating so repairs are not likely to be as successful.

Clamshell grapples are nice for collecting small brush as they can compress it but as you noted they are less ideal for assymmetric hard materials and can actually be damaged by applying pressure to an offset rock or stump where the "clam top" gets twisted. Two upper grapples is more flexible but adds weight and cost. A single upper grapple is quite versatile and in four years I have never had any object I could fit into the grapple fail to be clamped. Yes, small stuff will fall down between the bottom tines as it will with any style grapple but anything larger than the bottom tine gap can be securely held for transport with a single upper jaw.

I'd suggest you PM Charlesaf3 who has the same grapple I do on his M59. See what he thinks.

Well I feel so bad for buying a Anbo Grapple after reading Island tractors post. I may just sell the Anbo now there will be no joy in ownership from here on out. When I think about using it now to stack brush and stack debris I imagine now I will just do it by hand. Naaa. Really now my Anbo weighs only #340 and it is a 66" I got a good deal really(I bought it used) can you cut a guy a break and let him in the grapple club(even if it looks like a root rake). I went for a lighter unit because my FEL will only lift about 1500# at bucket center.

 

[IslandTractor]

Well I feel so bad for buying a Anbo Grapple after reading Island tractors post. I may just sell the Anbo now there will be no joy in ownership from here on out. When I think about using it now to stack brush and stack debris I imagine now I will just do it by hand. Naaa. Really now my Anbo weighs only #340 and it is a 66" I got a good deal really(I bought it used) can you cut a guy a break and let him in the grapple club(even if it looks like a root rake). I went for a lighter unit because my FEL will only lift about 1500# at bucket center.

I still cannot bring myself to believe your grapple weighs #340. Someone at Anbo was dreaming when they published that number. It is a very nice grapple I agree and you got a deal but I think it costs a lot more new than the Markham so I tend to steer people to the Markham. I'd like to have a clamshell as a second grapple but would personally take a standard root grapple for general work as it is simpler and usually lighter etc. You do have a premium grapple at a great price and deserve to be happy with it though.

 

[dex3361]

Thanks IslandTractor I feel much better now I may go ahead and keep it. Does this mean I can join the grapple club?

 

[ManAtArms]

Thanks for all of the responses and advice, particularly regarding the durability of the "light duty" models. If I decide to go with a "root grapple" design, I notices some design the tip of the lower tines to slope downward (like in the pic of the bradco) and some design them to have a slight upward curl...like this pic:

Part of the problem is that I've never used a grapple before. I assume different designs require different techniques to perform the same task.

If I want to grab a large, oblong boulder, would I "bite" it from the top down then roll the grapple back to shift the payload onto the lower tines? Or do you try to slide under it and shimmy it up? Do you think the 1st design (bradco with downward pointing lower tines) would make it harder to grab large boulders?

Thanks again,

mark

 

[IslandTractor]

If I want to grab a large, oblong boulder, would I "bite" it from the top down then roll the grapple back to shift the payload onto the lower tines? Or do you try to slide under it and shimmy it up? Do you think the 1st design (bradco with downward pointing lower tines) would make it harder to grab large boulders?

I haven't used a clamshell style (Bradco, Anbo, WRLong) so my comments are based on use of a "traditional" root grapple (Millonzi, Markham, WRLong OMG, others) with the style as indicated in my avatar.

The upper jaw of any grapple is not as strong as the lower jaw and IMO upper jaws are really just for securing the load rather than doing any real work. The lifting and digging is generally done by using the loader lift and curl functions with the lower grapple jaw digging under the object of your desire. Ideally then the upper jaw is really not involved in any serious lifting or bashing or whatever, it just serves to powerfully compress and secure the load once it is inside the lower jaw. That said, it doesn't always work out that way. I can think of a few instances where the upper jaw on a root grapple does work. First is when you come down directly on top of the object rather than scooping from underneath. This top down grappling of loose surface objects is fine and particularly useful with brush piles or single logs for example. Rocks that are not embedded can also easily be lifted that way. Typically you would first clamp the load (top down) and then close the upper grapple, lift and then curl to transfer the weight to the bottom of the grapple. I've posted a few photos of that method to pick up brush piles where it works well on smaller piles that would just be pushed along the ground if you used the typical bottom grapple first technique.

I would suggest avoiding active digging with the top grapple though as it is not nearly as well engineered for digging as the bottom tines. I have inadverently used the top grapple to grasp a large (well over a ton) embedded boulder (the hole was three feet deep once I pulled it out). I was able to get it out. I thought stupidly it was a small rock based on the "tip of the iceberg" that kept hitting my flail mower blades. In the end, when I yanked the rock out of the ground it was being held by the bottom grapple and a single upper jaw tine. The upper jaw tine was slightly bent but essentially it had lifted over a ton just being compressed against the tip of the rock. I would not suggest doing that as a habit but it does show how tough these "light duty" grapples are.

Photos show top down approach to brush and also use of the bottom grapple first approach in ripping through roots or brush. Inadvertent use of upper grapple to pull out a rock is pictured along with more appropriate bottom grapple use in moving rocks.

 

[ManAtArms]

Island,

Thanks for the info and pics. So, in your 7th picture, with the large rectangular slab...were you able to get under the rock with the lower tines, or did you grab that from the top side?

-Mark

 

[IslandTractor]

Island,

Thanks for the info and pics. So, in your 7th picture, with the large rectangular slab...were you able to get under the rock with the lower tines, or did you grab that from the top side?

-Mark

I just used the lower tines. You'll see that the upper grapple is not closed as this was right after I busted a hydraulic hose and could not close it.

 

[dex3361]

Part of the problem is that I've never used a grapple before. I assume different designs require different techniques to perform the same task.

If I want to grab a large, oblong boulder, would I "bite" it from the top down then roll the grapple back to shift the payload onto the lower tines? Or do you try to slide under it and shimmy it up? Do you think the 1st design (bradco with downward pointing lower tines) would make it harder to grab large boulders?

Thanks again,

mark

If I were going to pick up a large boulder I would tilt the Anbo Root grapple forward and sink the lower teeth below the boulder and the loosen the rock if possible by tilting the grapple back and breaking the boulder loose.

I would then close the upper tines to (and may clamshell it as you stated) clamp the boulder the upper tines have a combined clamping force (at the tips of the tines) of aprox. #2400 to #3000 depending on your hydraulic pressure. An irregular shaped object will not hurt the upper tines they are designed to fully clamp at the outer edges and not bend.

The picture of the slab on Islandtractors pic shows what a root grapple can't do and that is carry anything without the upper clamping tines.

They both have their places and they are great tools the Markham is about 60% cheaper in cost and with likely be just useful and maybe more so in some instances.

The weight may be an issue and the Anbo GRM series is a weight conscious build for CUT's as opposed to the heavier Bradco Root grapple. I needed the lightest strongest I could afford and I stumbled onto a used Anbo GRM 66" that filled the bill.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

If I want to grab a large, oblong boulder, would I "bite" it from the top down then roll the grapple back to shift the payload onto the lower tines? Or do you try to slide under it and shimmy it up? Do you think the 1st design (bradco with downward pointing lower tines) would make it harder to grab large boulders?

Thanks again,

mark

If I were going to pick up a large boulder I would tilt the Anbo Root grapple forward and sink the lower teeth below the boulder and the loosen the rock if possible by tilting the grapple back and breaking the boulder loose.

I would then close the upper tines to (and may clamshell it as you stated) clamp the boulder the upper tines have a combined clamping force (at the tips of the tines) of aprox. #2400 to #3000 depending on your hydraulic pressure. An irregular shaped object will not hurt the upper tines they are designed to fully clamp at the outer edges and not bend.

The picture of the slab on Islandtractors pic shows what a root grapple can't do and that is carry anything without the upper clamping tines.

They both have their places and they are great tools the Markham is about 60% cheaper in cost and with likely be just useful and maybe more so in some instances.

The weight may be an issue and the Anbo GRM series is a weight conscious build for CUT's as opposed to the heavier Bradco Root grapple. I needed the lightest strongest I could afford and I stumbled onto a used Anbo GRM 66" that filled the bill.[/quote]

I'm confused, his top grapple is not down on that slab, in fact his hydraulic hose was broken at that time and could not be used. Am I looking at a different picture than you? Why do you think that they can't carry anything without the grapple?

 

[dex3361]

I am talking about the Anbo type that I have would not carry a slab like the Markham's or Millzonni's that Islandtractor has. With the Anbo you have to have the upper tines clamped or it will roll out. I am pointing out the benefit of the type in the pic. Like this pic of mine Anbo Root Rake/Grapple.

 

[IslandTractor]

Regarding carrying the slab, I think we just have a terminology confusion. I call the type of grapple that Dex has a "clamshell" not a root grapple. I suppose others may use the terms differently. I use "root" grapple or "standard" grapple interchangably and that may lead to confusion. From my perspective, my Millonzi LD48 is a root grapple/standard grapple and Dex's grapple is a clamshell. The comment he made about picking up the big slab of concrete without using the upper grapple jaw should refect the fact that his grapple (clamshell in my terminology) cannot do that without the clamping pressure of the upper jaw.

Sorry for the confusion. I think my terminology is based on WRLong but may not be entirely consistent. (or even wrong see below)

 

[MtnViewRanch]

My misunderstanding of what was being said, sorry.