Flattening sheet metal

[ray66v]

They're found in my body shop. I have two. You don't see them in hack shops because nobody knows how to use them. Besides that, few shops "repair" anything. Autobody Steel after about 1976 doesn't take kindly to straightening. They replace parts or slap filler over the dents. And they're not very good at that either. Time is money in a production body shop so the intent is to get the job out fast. Repair is not in the equation. But apparently, you already knew that.

Pull up to a local body shop in a 1908 Buick, 1912 Ford or even a '58 Hudson. They'll laugh in your face if you ask them to repair body damage. Most won't even paint the parts you bring in. Lord help ya if you tell them not to use filler or make a door skin for a '25 Model T. I can't imagine real repairs to autobodies without an E-wheel. So our opinions differ on that.

You don't live in the same world as I do.

Yes, you do need production to be able to survive in today's world of direct repair. And if an English wheel helped in that department, everyone would have one instead of virtually no one.

If you have a restoration business, or some sort of business that caters to people who are willing to spend the money for custom work, that's great. However; your assertion that everyone who does not have an English wheel, (virtually every body shop out there), is a hack shop, and does not do real repairs, is both ignorant and offensive. Sure, there are plenty of butcher shops out there, they are the minority.

Our shop had a very good reputation, I worked very hard for. There are also many good shops in this area.

Since most of us do not work on classics or antiques, using antiquated repair methods is usually not the best approach. I have dealt with this; I learned this from an old timer, or I am an old timer, so my way is best, mentality, from my first day on the job working next to my father, and many like him, over the last 30 years.

If you have spent time in the business, you should know, there are always different ways to do the same repair.

I almost always made more money, and ended up with a happier customer, because, I was able to do a more seamless repair, as a result of fixing a fender, rather than changing it.

Anyone can do a good, job lasting job, on a car they were able to work on for months, or a year. Then this car is babied, never sees snow, stored for the winter, mostly kept out of the sun.

What is difficult, is only having 2-5 days to do a really good job, lasting job. One where you actually have to match nearly impossible colors. Colors that instead of having 3 or 5 tints, have 10 different ones, including multiple special effects. Now, you're not going to be able to sand and buff it, so its got to be flawless right out of the booth. And, you have to guarantee the job, your reputation hangs on it, for life. The minute its finished, this job goes right out into the real world. To do all that, with a high degree of success, is what really takes skill. That's why so many, apparently including you, think it is not even possible.... Sorry, it is.

 

[RWolf]

Ok now that I've seen the blades here's my take on your project. Initially you need to determine what's good and what's bad concerning the metal. I see some that are salvageable and some that are not. Is this to be a working windmill or yard art? Depending on what your intentions is how far you are going to have to take this project. If it's yard art then straigthening, cleaning and painting will all that's needed. If it's to be functioning then you will need to determine what's good metal and what's bad. Some of those blade look pretty bad to me. After carefully removing all blades from the rings determine which blades are just to far rusted/corroded to work with and set those aside for now. The better looking blades will probably just need some minor work with the dolly and hammer. The metal looks to be about 18 gauge so it will be relatively easy to work with. After disassembly first clean everything up with a wire wheel on a drill or if you have a compressor a 90 deg. angle grinder. Once you have everything cleaned then you can move on to shaping/straigtening. Use the blades that are the worst for you practice (that's why I said set them aside). You will need to purchase at least one sheet of steel the same gauge as the blades (my area 18 gauge 4x10=$112). Now you can use metal shears or if you know someone with a plasma cutter (nice toy, I don't know how I got along without one ) you can use one of the blades as a template and cut the number of blades you need. You will also need to find someone with a bead roller to create the the bead at the top of the blade (again strength).

That's just starting. Maybe those $20 blades aren't so exepensive after all. You have quite a project and will be looking forward to how you accomplish it. As I've said earlier I do metal fabrication as a hobby and am only just beginning to get "adiquate" in it. What I've found so far is that to do the job right it takes alot of patience and the right tools. I have found bargains in tools that has made it much easier such as a plasma cutter I got through Northern tools for under $700 (on special). But you can do the job with basic hand tools also.

Good luck.

 

[zzvyb6]

This a Flint & Walling Star 26. Its an 8' wheel, direct stroke, oil bath bearings. The shaft hub is a left hand thread, which usually caused major problems when the uniformed used brute force to remove it. In a gale force wind, its about 1.5 hp. In case you were all thinking of switching your tractors to wind power, you're gonna need a bigger fan. The steel in these machines is good stuff. Much better than today's crap that is very brittle. The blades were easy to straighten and re-rivet, I used some zinc paint because the whole deal was galvanized. I found an Amish fellow in the town near where the F&W pump company still exists in Indiana. He had head stuff, fans, ladder parts, winches, and deck stands. I have the original pump and the pump jack. The well I pounded was NFG but maybe I will get back to it someday...

I have a few more pix around here of the windmill park I visited in Indiana somewhere (I forgot already). They will have your Dempster on display. There is a windmill fair there once a year I believe.

It did not take much to pound back into shape the fan blades. The steel tower was ginked, but I cut the angle iron at the problem areas and welded it back together straight.

You will have to rotate the px. I forgot....

 

[zzvyb6]

Here's how it all fits into my landscape (the big picture)...

 

[Sherweld]

I say go for it, and more power to you!

If it doesn't work out, you will still have learned a lot without (hopefully) a big investment except for your time.

In days gone by, the old timers had to be self sufficient and fix a lot of stuff on their own with simple tools and lots of ingenuity because there wasn't many other resources to run to.

Good luck to you, it looks like a fun project.

Regards
Sherweld

 

[AlanB]

What RWolf said pretty much sums up my thoughts as well.

Removing rivets, drill to just below the head, with one size smaller bit, say 3/16 rivets use a #11 or 12 bit. Anyway, center, (with a punch if needed) then drill down so you are just below the lower surface of the rivet head, then take a pin punch the diameter of the rivet, put it in the hole and wiggle it around, if you have done your drilling correctly, this will break off the head of the rivet. Then put the shop head or tail, or whatever you want to call the other side of the rivet over a draw bar or rivet removing bar, or plate or whatever, basicly a bucking bar with a hole in it that you put the tail in the hole and it has a way to drop the tails out clear, then punch out the rivet with your pin punch and hammer. That said, they also make a special tool for drilling off rivet heads, If yours are 3/16 or smaller contact me on PM and I will lend you one for the job. It is basicly a guide to center on the rivet head and then you drill down through it.
They look like this. Rivet Removal Tool

The other thing I would add is take your best blade and set it somewhere safe, then take your second best blade and work it into a pattern then make the others match that one. Don't do your learning on that blade, AS HE SAID, make sure you practice with a toast blade first.

If I were doing it, I would get them sandblasted, but a wire brush will do too, it is all about a time vs money decision that only you can make. Check with your local monument (headstone) shops and it may be cheap if you can work on their schedule. I think those would blast amazingly quickly.

I did not catch the bead rolled edge, but if you need a bead done, I have a roller, if you blank them and mark them I can probably help, or you could use the roller but for the price of shipping you could probably get them done locally.

That gentle curve in them is the forte of the english wheel by the way, but imo by the time you got to the point of doing those on a wheel, you may as well have bought new ones, unless it is a skill you want and plan to use more.

Press forming or hammerforming into a die would work fine for what it is, and probably how they were originally made.

If it were mine, and I was trying to do it cheap, I would do the following.

Buy that HF cheap hammer and dolly set.
Find a big log section to use as an anvil, prefer hardwood, get set up so you are comfortable working by either getting a chair the right height or raising the wood up to comfortable working height.

Get a heat dragon propane torch, they are available form HF as well, I forget the right name but basicly a weed burner, get that one that you can turn on and off easy.

Set the weed burner up so that it is fixed, and easy to light right beside the stump.

Set up a slack tub.

Nail a couple of RR spikes into your stump a little a way from each one (varying distances)

Clean the blades in whatever manner you decide.

Carve a bit of a recess into the stump to somewhat mimic the blade shape (nothing precise needed.

The procedure would then go heat blade, bend kind of to shape on the pins (especially those that are curved / rolled around) You will find that both where and how much heat (how it is glowing) and where you place it in the pins, and how far apart the pins are, will give you different results, each blade will be a bit different, you will just have to play at it.

After you get them basicly too shape, then work it to final shape using the depression in the stump, heat from the torch and lots of patience, remember that working the metal less is usually better.

As too tempering and stretching, I think you will be fine on those so long as you don't get too carried away beating them, and I don't think you will.

Good luck, looks like a neat project.

 

[ray66v]

Rather than do all that, how about, you take a piece of sheet metal, press it over a log, or a piece of pipe, with your hands, (looks like about 6" in diameter will do). lay an original blade over it until the contours match up. Trace it out. Cut it out, with a good pair of ducks (sheet metal snips). Repeat 15x.

 

[AlanB]

Rather than do all that, how about, you take a piece of sheet metal, press it over a log, or a piece of pipe, with your hands, (looks like about 6" in diameter will do). lay an original blade over it until the contours match up. Trace it out. Cut it out, with a good pair of ducks (sheet metal snips). Repeat 15x.

Because running that bead in the last 6 inches will be tough without a bead roller.

 

[ray66v]

Because running that bead in the last 6 inches will be tough without a bead roller.

Bead? We don't need no stink'in bead.

If you make all new blades, you have Carte blanche. This makes a lot more sense because you have to replace a lot of them anyway, they are scrap. You can then make them the way you want, with what tools, and ability you have.

If your going to suggest the beads are absolutely necessary, (I doubt it), there are lots of easier ways to stiffen the blades, if your hand making them. A simple applied strip, of hand curved metal, at the point of the bead, 2 or 3 rivets, and your good to go.

Or, how about folding over the end of the blade 1/2", before forming? The shop you get the scrap from, can be enlisted to fold over some edges, but this can be done by hand, with a simple seaming tool.

Or, how about using 1 gauge heavier steel?

Or, If your really gonna get fussy, have someone roll the beads after you cut them out, and simply reform them as necessary.

There are also lots of simple ways to make the holes too, IF your making all new blades.

You really want to worry about something, I would be more worried about how he's going to get those rings that hold this all together, round and true, Without a lot of help.

 

[AlanB]

Bead? We don't need no stink'in bead.

If you make all new blades, you have Carte blanche. This makes a lot more sense because you have to replace a lot of them anyway, they are scrap. You can then make them the way you want, with what tools, and ability you have.

If your going to suggest the beads are absolutely necessary, (I doubt it), there are lots of easier ways to stiffen the blades, if your hand making them. A simple applied strip, of hand curved metal, at the point of the bead, 2 or 3 rivets, and your good to go.

Or, how about folding over the end of the blade 1/2", before forming? The shop you get the scrap from, can be enlisted to fold over some edges, but this can be done by hand, with a simple seaming tool.

Or, how about using 1 gauge heavier steel?

Or, If your really gonna get fussy, have someone roll the beads after you cut them out, and simply reform them as necessary.

There are also lots of simple ways to make the holes too, IF your making all new blades.

I guess we see it different.

I think the beads are important, I think you would have flap and fatique problems if they were not there.

I also think if they were not needed, that the manufacturer would not have taken the time to put them in.

Either way, the OP has to make his decision as to the best way of proceeding forward.

 

[ray66v]

If you felt the beads are necessary, then you could put a simple stiffener on them.

These were stamped on a press, no time was really spent on the bead, except for the making of the die. The bead was no doubt used to help them hold their shape. However; it is not very substantial, suggesting it was not a major issue. I believe it is more to retain the shape during transport and assembly. If you careful working with them, or use heavier metal, I would bet, they are not absolutely necessary.

We still don't even know if this thing is ever going to spin, or just be a static display.

After seeing my neighbors modern wind mill, blow out all the bearings from very minor damage to the blades, I can tell you what I expect to happen if this thing ever spins.

Update: I checked my neighbors windmill when I went out for lunch, It has very similar blades, about the same dimensions, same amount of extension on the ends, with no bead.

 

[chickenman]

the bead could be simulated with 1/4" or 3/8" square bent and tack welded in place

 

[bcarwell]

Thanks again to all for the continuing suggestions. I have some reading and thinking to do. By the way, would a 20 ton shop press and some stiff 1/2 inch plates with a fan blade in between and then squashing the sandwich with the press do any good ?

I removed one of the blades and started playing with reshaping it (just purchased a shrinking hammer/dolly set from HF I'll be playing with) and rust removal. Got side tracked on getting a home made abrasive cabinet since it appears that is the way to go rather than wire brushes/grinder etc. Picked up a used 40 lb. HF abrasive blaster for cheap (thanks again, Craig's List) and will be kludging the cabinet together. Some really ingenious ideas on the internet for a homemade sand blasting cabinet from Rubber Maid plastic storage tubs, discarded dishwashers and stoves (which have a built in view window !), etc., using shop vac for dust evacuation, etc. Figured I would eventually be sandblasting the windmill motor parts, so might as well get sandblasting capability now and use it on the fan blades to speed things up.

I may have to fab some or all the blades but one reason I wanted to do what I could to save as many as possible is the windmill (a Model 12 Dempster) was made the year I was born, 1947, so I want to keep as much original as I can. And there's something satisfying about keeping costs down even if time IS money...

Bob

 

[schmism]

i find the most straight org blade i could.

it should have some natural curve to it.

I would make a wooden dolley to fit that patter so the blade layed in it nicely.

then take the bent up ones and use the wooden dolly to beat them back into the correct shape. They may not be perfect, but they will be a lot better than what you got now.

 

[AlanB]

Maybe looking at the picture, I am getting a distorted view.

The blades look like they have a gentle round curve in them, I would not want to put them, "flat" and then try and bring them back to curved. (referring to your press comment)

The press could well be used if you were willing to make up the forms, to press out new blades, bead and all, but that would defeat the saving the old parts idea.

The less you work the metal to get it too position, the better off you will be.

 

[zzvyb6]

Don't laugh, but many windmill fan blades were wood and outlasted the sheet metal for many reasons. The wooden blades are nearly identical to cedar siding boards (tapered). Yes, they are flat. If you're not going to take the Dempster to the Antiques Roadshow for appraisal, make up a new wheel from steel banding and the boards. No need to run the band thru the blades, just bolt then thru some tabs. It will probably be down in power from 1.75 to 1.60 hp, but the gain in time and effort will make up the difference. Need I add that replacement will be easier when the time comes? Your neightbor's kids and their .22 will teach you why I said this...

 

[Farmerford]

Thanks Bob and zzbyv6. The Flint & Walling Star 26 looks just like mine looked when I was a child, except my tower may have one more section , and it has (had) a wooden tank in the fourth section.

I haven't removed the head yet, so I have no idea of the condition of the crank, etc.

Any thoughts from either of you will be appreciated.

 

[RWolf]

As mentioned for the rings I wouldn't try and recover those. Flat bar stock of the same size shouldn't break the bank. To make a gentle bend you could use a telephone pole and gentle tug on each side of the pole (bar stock) to create your initial bend. If done gently and carefully you will be able to approximate the diameter of the ring. For fine tuning a body hammer and concrete floor to refine your diameter. As many have noted and during your trials take a straight piece of metal and a hammer. On the concrete floor as you hammer away (and it doesn't need to be hard) you will observe the metal bending. If done carfully you can make some pretty amazing complex bends.

Good luck.

 

[CCWKen]

Beads and curves, Oh my! Looks like were back to real metal shaping.

You "ignorant and offensive" folks, as Ray puts it, are running the poor guy around in circles and confusing him with the hack shop "repairs".

Bring the blades here and we'll have them done in a few hours. Probably before lunch; Which you can buy. Won't have to use no stinking telephone poles or weld-on beads either. Sheesh!

 

[ray66v]

You "ignorant and offensive" folks, as Ray puts it,

Please don't put words in my mouth. That statement was not aimed at anyone else's comments.