Security & Theft Securing tractor from theft

   / Securing tractor from theft #121  
Sound I still have yet to get a comment from you about my solution. a bouncing betty style paint/sound/teargas mine under the bucket. another similer device in the cab to spray the guy if they forget to turn off the inside one...

lojack/cell heartbeet = good 2ndary
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #122  
While a permanent dye/paint marker system like a bank may use would mark the target.. I have a feeling the tear gas would be a violation of law.. even though it is non lethat in most cases.. there are limits to the legalities of booby-traps.. etc.

soundguy
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #123  
Soundguy said:
While a permanent dye/paint marker system like a bank may use would mark the target.. I have a feeling the tear gas would be a violation of law.. even though it is non lethat in most cases.. there are limits to the legalities of booby-traps.. etc.

soundguy

10 Ga spring gun!

Pat
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #124  
Soundguy said:
While a permanent dye/paint marker system like a bank may use would mark the target.. I have a feeling the tear gas would be a violation of law.. even though it is non lethat in most cases.. there are limits to the legalities of booby-traps.. etc.

soundguy


In Texas they are. If you see them and shoot them that's ok. But no booby-traps because you are not there and they can't harm you.

But just look at the Stella Liebeck files. A guy could hurt himself while trying to cut the chains off your tractor to steal it and sue you. And in many cases...they win!!
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #125  
Those are the kind of laws that should be changed. If a personal commits a criminal act, and is injured doing so.. it should be his(her) own responsibility.

I know if 2 criminals are committing an illegal act, and one is killed.. the other can be charged with his death... they should expand that a little and make the victom judgement proof.. Some states self defense laws are similar to that.. I believe florida castle doctrine offers some protection to victoms that have to defend themselves..e tc.

soundguy
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #126  
There are two disjoint sets of circumstances, groups of situations/scenarios which truly are mutually exclusive.

On the one hand we have people who are in the process of committing an illegal act will full knowledge of forethought, a premeditated (even if the act came immediately after recognizing the opportunity) action. This includes such things as theft. The bad guy knows it is theft. There is no doubt in his mind that the object of his attentions is NOT HIS and yet he takes action to possess it. This includes people sneaking onto your property to poach deer, birds, fish, or whatever as well asa steal your tractor. They know the animals are on property that does not belong to them or that the tractor isn't theirs. There is nothing accidental about their taking your tractor, fish, or whatever. Climbing or cutting a fence that is not yours and for which you have no permissioin is an affirmative action that clearly serves as prima facie evidence of intent to do damage and or trespass and the perpetrator should do so at his own peril with no civil recourse by himself, his heirs, or assigns irrespective of any injury he may sustain up to and including the use of lethal force against him.

I would like to see the law modified to protect the rightful owner, his legal lessee(s) or duly appointed security person(s) from any and all civil actions arising out of interactions with persons violating the rights of possession of the property (real property/trespassing or personal property/goods.) Spring guns and other booby traps may be excluded from legal use but direct action, including such force as is deemed necessary by the owner, his lessee(s), or duly authorized security person(s) should be permitted up to and including lethal force.

What benefit does a society derive by protecting such persons as would be harmed by allowing direct action as described above?

On the other hand there is a possibility that someone could trespass by accident such as if they lost control of their car and drove through your fence. They might then walk up your drive and knock on your door to try to get assistance or make arrangements for repairs. Shooting such folks as these with no clear justification would not be encouraged nor tolerated without additional information indicating circumstances justifying the action. An inquest could determine if there was a truly accidental nature to the trespass or property damage and that the safety and security of the owner and or his representatives were or were not endangered.

If the above were the law of the land there would be less property crime and lower recidivism in the ranks of thieves.

I venture to speculate that it would not take long before most trespassers and thieves would find other activities to occupy their time. If a thief knew that he was fair game and could be killed with impunity if caught in flagranti the risk vs gain calculations would favor not doing small crime.

Although there might be a brief period of thieves getting dispatched with great frequency, as the gravity of the situation sinks in it is likely the behavior of the thieves (and ex thieves) will be modified.

Once society gets used to the NEW order of handling interactions between the lawful owners and thieves/trespassers (20-25 years) it is likely the boundaries of what is legal to do to thieves via remote means could be shifted toward more effective deterrents. There would need to be guidelines to enforce public safety but after that let the lawbreaker beware. Signs and tall fences allow the use of attack dogs in many jurisdictions. Similar is reasonable for the employ of "booby traps." If you have to climb an 8 ft chain link fence topped with razor wire or electric wire to get to a tractor and then are harmed by a booby trap, oh well, too bad for you.

Reason demands that criminals not be afforded legal redress for any injuries, however severe at the hands of the lawful parties. We need to make it universally accepted that if you choose to break the law and violate the rights of others you have also chosen to give up your own rights.

A natural extension of the pendulum swinging toward reason is to grant licenses to duly trained and tested individuals to act as bounty hunters with reasonable bounties set on the lawbreakers according to the severity of the crime. Crimes of violence against a person should automatically initiate a dead or alive bounty.

It has been said that it takes all kinds to make the world go around. It doesn't.

Pat
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #128  
I knew there was a silver lining in that message somewhere!

( good post by the way.. )

soundguy

patrick_g said:
Although there might be a brief period of thieves getting dispatched with great frequency, Pat
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #129  
Dogs,

Big yard no fence, 3 dogs, No problems yet. Other Ideas. Live in the Yukon, I own one of maybe 50 working tractors within a 100 mile radius. And to my knowledge only one of 2 Jinmas. To steel it would like painting your face blue and waiting on main street.

Population of Yukon Canada is about 35000 people.

If you steel you get caught. Period

YukonKing
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #130  
My Thoughts on the topic:
I liked the idea of a distinctive vehicle (the camo/rust/dents) Most thieves want to remain as annonimous(?)as possible. If the locals see them with Jakes tractor/trailer/ATV then it gives someone a chance to take notes. The pro would rather take a standard unit that no one notices.
Around here, when a piece of equipment goes missing the owner normally starts phoning his buddies to see if it has been borrowed, before they call the cops.
Its the spurr of the moment joy-rides that give us the most worries. They often wind up in a lake or mudhole. If you make the unit just a little bit awkward to hop in and start with the key from another machine it often works to end the fun.
Sometimes a "For Sale-Needs engine" sign can go a long way if there is also a hidden kill switch......Electric fuel pumps or fuel solenoids are great places to install these.
Some years back I was involved with a road construction site security problem. Patrols every half hour were not frequent enough to stop dozers and excavators from vanishing along highway 401......during the middle of the night.
My sons company just had 8000gallons of fuel oil (diesel) vanish from an underground tank, 24hrs after it was filled. If the return is great enough, they will take it......
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #131  
YukonKing said:
Dogs,

Big yard no fence, 3 dogs, No problems yet. Other Ideas. Live in the Yukon, I own one of maybe 50 working tractors within a 100 mile radius. And to my knowledge only one of 2 Jinmas. To steel it would like painting your face blue and waiting on main street.

Population of Yukon Canada is about 35000 people.

If you steel you get caught. Period

YukonKing
I was in alaska two weeks ago and one of trips we took we went into canada about 12 or 15 miles from the Yukon. I would think that buy the time you paid for fuel to get to the yukon you could buy a good used tractor for the fuel bill.
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #132  
Reading this thread and the other one regarding vacant property, and thinking about ways to prevent entry to a locked container. Heavy steel plates ( boxes) covering hinges and locks, heavy steel crossbar across both doors and add a coating of something on the outside and inside of the plates and bar to prevent successful cutting with a cutting torch or grinder. Think - Reactive Armor.

Im not going to detail any severe methods that might be utilized but some milder forms could be coating the inside and outside of the plates with epoxy resin and then a thick rubber coating such as truck bedliner or undercoating so that any attempts to cut it will result in large amounts of noxious fumes and smoke which I would think would cause anyone to give up , unless they showed up with a torch and a firesuit and supplied air respirator.
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #133  
You could encase the thing in a concrete dome and make it safer.. but all that adds to difficulty for the owner too. All them heavy beefy crossbars and extra big hinges and stuff gonna move real good with an inch of truck bedliner clinging to it.. my guess is the latch mechanism won't work at all..

soundguy
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #134  
Forget all about the encasement systems. Set up a tracer system so you can find it whenever you wish.:D :D

And then set up up two more if the first one is found.:D

Actually you set one up that is easy to find, the next is a little more complicated but the third is very well hid!:D :D
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #135  
My tractor insurance is about 150.00 a year. How many years of those payments will the cost of some of these schemes cost ?
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #136  
Exactly.. 2000-3000$ of space age notification and satalite tracking and super-human prevention methods start tipping the practicality way over the line..

soundguy
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #137  
My tractor insurance is about 150.00 a year. How many years of those payments will the cost of some of these schemes cost ?

Right on, Thomas. Of course to be entirely fair you need to consider your deductible, any loss of use issues, and the fact that the insurance company probably isn't going to deliver a shiny Montana to your driveway but just mail a check. You will have to invest time in the replacement process. What all this is worth can be different for different folks.

I agree with your basic economic assumptions which are not invalidated by my comments.

The most bang for the buck is not a system that makes theft impossible. It is a system that makes your tractor enough harder to take than the other guy's and or yours enough hassle to give the thief pause to consider.

I still assert that my anti theft "alarm wire system" is an awful lot of bang for the buck BUT unfortunately is only practical if your normal parking location is near a monitored alarm system (your house or whatever.) Although remoting that protection up to a thousand feet or so is not much of a technical challenge, distances commonly discussed in miles runs the cost up considerably AND could quickly succumb to your cost/benefit comments.

These days we should be glad if no one strips the copper wire off our tractors or siphons the fuel given the costs.

Pat
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #138  
There you go.. drilling the tractor fuel tank to get that 20g of diesel.. at todays price.. that's like 100$ ..

soundguy
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #139  
Im not going to detail any severe methods that might be utilized but some milder forms could be coating the inside and outside of the plates with epoxy resin and then a thick rubber coating such as truck bedliner or undercoating so that any attempts to cut it will result in large amounts of noxious fumes and smoke which I would think would cause anyone to give up , unless they showed up with a torch and a firesuit and supplied air respirator.

Of course the bed liner will catch on fire and burn up everything inside the container. Back to insurance.
 
   / Securing tractor from theft #140  
Forget all about the encasement systems. Set up a tracer system so you can find it whenever you wish.:D :D

And then set up up two more if the first one is found.:D

Actually you set one up that is easy to find, the next is a little more complicated but the third is very well hid!:D :D

These are compact tractors, not a lot of room to hide something. Mine does not have a truck!! :D Inside the gearbox might affect the sat signal. Can you hear me now? hehe
 

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