Yet Another Well Pump Issue

[QueBota]

Thanks Carl, good info, here is the data printed on the side of the pipe, it is a little hard to read, I imagine it was sitting out for a little over 20 years before I found the "scraps" laying in the woods while cleaning up after we moved in. Whoever built this house just disposed of their excess materials by scatttering them in the woods beside and behind the house.

Cresline HD 100 SDH9 PE 3408 NSF ASTM D 2239

I think the HD 100 may really read HD 160. The pipe is minimally flexible, it would take a good deal of force to bend it in half to put a kink in it.

Didn't have much time last night, I will measure OD, ID and wall thickness when I get home. My best guess it is 1" pipe.

Unfortunately at this time I am only going to expose the minimum amount of pipe necessary to install a small splice or patch. My neighbor suggested the "rubber" lined sleave type patches that you slide over the pipe the clamp shut with two bolts at either end. Might go that route for a short term fix. However, in order to do that I am literally going to have to chisel some root out from below the pipe to provide enough clearance to slide the patch sleave under the pipe to center it around the leak. I have seen these sleaves used on copper pipe successfully.

Still waiting for Miss Utility to come out and mark the electric lines, I know from previous markings they are very close by. What is the current best material to use as a replacment line? Is there something flexible enough to install in, say a 4" conduit. If I am going to go through the trouble of replacing the line I was thinking of using a rented trencher and burying conduit, then installing the line in conduit. Don't know if that is worth the trouble or not.

Will also try to post pics this afternoon/evening. Rain/Thunderstorms are in the forecast.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Carl_NH]

Dave,

1" 100 PSI Polyethlene Pipe will have a wall thickness of .070-.080" and 1" 160 PSI pipe will have wall thickness of .115-.120".

200PSI pipe will be in the .150" wall thickness

I would definitely sleeve your pipe - you can use 2" Poly and run 1" inside of it along with the wires to the pump. The poly will slide better inside poly than in PVC with joints it will hit along the way,

I wouldnt waste time putting a sleeve over where it is leaking I would take a sawzall and cut the tree roots for clearance and put in a new section of pipe and fittings for now.

Carl

 

[QueBota]

Carl,

Thanks for the input. If I get create enough room for the sleeve and/or the "magic" silicon sealing tape I will have to go with that for the next couple of days, hopefully that can eliminate or reduce the leak enough to give me some breathing room.

It is going to take quite a few hours to free up enough pipe to and create enough room to make a repair in reasonable working conditions. Fortunately I have my 15 yo son to help me, he is physically very able but not field/farm/yardwork savy, plus he likes to argue a lot.

Glad you mentioned the wiring for the pump motor, I have been so fixated with the electrical service and locating and fixing the water line that I neglected to consider the power for the well pump. Are the well pump power lines normally run in close proximty to the water line? Would they be encased in conduit? Would hate to grab hold of those or cut them by mistake.

Hopefully I can take pics when I get home so you can see what I am dealing with. Words alone can't describe the roots I have to deal with. Some of the "roots" are actually portions of the trees below the ground, d#%ned Sweet Gums.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[turnkey4099]

Actually it does accomplish something, It works in conjunction with the 'foot' valve in the pump end.Its been standard practice here for 45 years that I know of.But yes its just a quick fix in this case.It doesnt sound like he has a pin hole leak at this point..Hopefully its an easy splice fix when its located.

??? What does it accomplish that the standard checkvalve in the sumbersible pump isn't already doing?

May be standard practice there but not out here. My well is fairly new and doesn't have one, neither does my neigherbors "community well" that I used to be on. That shallow well pump was replaced with a submersible about 10 years ago by a well drilling outfit and they did not put a checkvalve at the tank.

Harry K

 

[turnkey4099]

Carl,

Thanks for the input. If I get create enough room for the sleeve and/or the "magic" silicon sealing tape I will have to go with that for the next couple of days, hopefully that can eliminate or reduce the leak enough to give me some breathing room.

It is going to take quite a few hours to free up enough pipe to and create enough room to make a repair in reasonable working conditions. Fortunately I have my 15 yo son to help me, he is physically very able but not field/farm/yardwork savy, plus he likes to argue a lot.

Glad you mentioned the wiring for the pump motor, I have been so fixated with the electrical service and locating and fixing the water line that I neglected to consider the power for the well pump. Are the well pump power lines normally run in close proximty to the water line? Would they be encased in conduit? Would hate to grab hold of those or cut them by mistake.

Hopefully I can take pics when I get home so you can see what I am dealing with. Words alone can't describe the roots I have to deal with. Some of the "roots" are actually portions of the trees below the ground, d#%ned Sweet Gums.

Thanks,
Dave

1. The pump wiring should be in the same trench and probably not in coduit, very easy to "scrape" while digging.

2. I have my doubts about your plan to use one of the clamps you describe. Plastic pipe, even the rigid PVC will deform under pressure. I used to use a compression fitting to connect/disconnet my irrigation pump to a PVC line. Didn't take many years before the PVC pile had necked down a good 1/4". For a temporary patch it might work but I for sure wouldn't bury it.

3. By all means run a new pipe trhough conduit. due ot the tree root problem the sturdier the better.

4. Yes, if that is all you get from pump cut in to cutout, you are overdue for a recharge. You probably already know this but if not. Repressurize with tank empty to 2psi below the cut-in pressure.


Harry K

 

[dodge man]

Carl,

Fortunately I have my 15 yo son to help me, he is physically very able but not field/farm/yardwork savy, plus he likes to argue a lot.

Thanks,
Dave

I have a 17 year old son, trust me, it won't get any better.:laughing:

If the leak has been there for a while, the tree roots will actually grow to the water source, like it does on sewer lines. That could be the reason for all the tree roots at the leak.

 

[Carl_NH]

Harry,

Out east its common practice to put the check valve at the tank and also use the one at the pump. This prevents tank / potable water flowing back into the well and it also "holds" the water in the pipe (think finger on the end of a plastic straw) unless there is a leak in the service line from the well.

These are usually 200-400' deep wells and if you have a high water table 20' or so and a 80-100' well its not such a big deal. I also think the thought process was having two is better than one.. if the pump one fails the system still works.

I agree on the wrapping Dave wants to do - thats likely an ineffective bandaid.

On the wire Dave, check inside at the pump if you have yellow/red/black single strands at the switch leading outside then look for that in the trench somewhere, if a UF coated single cable be on the look out for that.

Another option Dave is to buy 200' of 160PSI well pipe, and 150' of wire then dig the line out at the well head and do a temporary line above ground with the new pipe and wiriing., Then you can dig and trench as much as you want around the pipe at your leasure.

 

[QueBota]

I have a 17 year old son, trust me, it won't get any better.:laughing:

If the leak has been there for a while, the tree roots will actually grow to the water source, like it does on sewer lines. That could be the reason for all the tree roots at the leak.

I hear you, my only son is a great kid, very proud of him, good student, good athlete, very responsible and helpful around the place. He is always learning, we live in a semi-rural environment and I guarantee he knows more about running an operation/household than most of the guys in his high school. He likes to get out and work with me, he just has a different opinion on how everything should be done, even though he hasn't done it before.

I guess it's a guy thing, we love to push each others buttons while working. Sometimes it's fun, other times I'd really like to whip his butt. He wrestles the 170 lb class as a freshman, I'm a little heavy at 6' 2" around 250, he likes to test me all the time, hasn't been successful .... yet.

If I need a helper to plow snow or get livestock back in the pen in the middle of the night, he is there to help me without question.

Now I know why I drove my father crazy, he always told me I would understand when I got older if I had a son. I only wish he was here to witness my "payback". I sure he is looking down and chuckling at me.

Dave

 

[QueBota]

Harry,


I agree on the wrapping Dave wants to do - thats likely an ineffective bandaid.

On the wire Dave, check inside at the pump if you have yellow/red/black single strands at the switch leading outside then look for that in the trench somewhere, if a UF coated single cable be on the look out for that.

Another option Dave is to buy 200' of 160PSI well pipe, and 150' of wire then dig the line out at the well head and do a temporary line above ground with the new pipe and wiriing., Then you can dig and trench as much as you want around the pipe at your leasure.

Right now, any "bandaid" I can apply that significantly reduces or stops the leak is a good thing, that will give me some time to evalute my options, hard to think when the "girls" are complaining about a lack of water 24/7.

The wire appears to be the standard inground rated insulated 2 wire + ground. There is no "paper" insulation between the wires. Haven't seen it in the ground yet but that's not surprising considering all the mud and water we are dealing with.

The above ground solution appeals to me at this time, will give me time to run the line the in a manner that makes sense.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[QueBota]

1. The pump wiring should be in the same trench and probably not in coduit, very easy to "scrape" while digging.

2. I have my doubts about your plan to use one of the clamps you describe. Plastic pipe, even the rigid PVC will deform under pressure. I used to use a compression fitting to connect/disconnet my irrigation pump to a PVC line. Didn't take many years before the PVC pile had necked down a good 1/4". For a temporary patch it might work but I for sure wouldn't bury it.

3. By all means run a new pipe trhough conduit. due ot the tree root problem the sturdier the better.

4. Yes, if that is all you get from pump cut in to cutout, you are overdue for a recharge. You probably already know this but if not. Repressurize with tank empty to 2psi below the cut-in pressure.


Harry K

1.After approx 32 years, the trench is no longer easy to see, they back filled with mixed clay and topsoil, so it's hard to tell what is going on. I would assume when the layed the pipe it was level, now from what little I have seen, I imagine it rises and falls at least a foot among the tree roots between the casing and the house. Keeping a close eye out for the wires that power the pump.

2.If I use the repair clamp I don't plan on cranking down on it hard, just enough to reduce the leak by 1/2 or more would work for me right now. No plans on burying it, just trying to buy some time. I have a full time job and family issues to keep me busy, this water line repair is a part time thing, sure can't pay someone to do it at this point. At this time, not enough access to try to wrap the "miracle" Locktite sealing tape around the leak. I have been pretty impressed with some of the leaks that the silicon based tapes have been able to seal.

3. Would love to put the 1" pipe in something larger, will have to see what hat is going cost and see if it makes sense.

4. I guess the waterlogged pressure tank is a good thing at this point, the pump runs a little more often put the amount of water put into/onto the ground is reduced.

Dave

 

[Carl_NH]

Dave,

Sounds like you have things under control - sorta now.

Time to stop typing and start piping - ha ha..

Carl

 

[Looking4new]

I have a 17 year old son, trust me, it won't get any better.:laughing:

Mine is 44 and it don't get any better.

Just to clarify something here, are we talking about a dug well or a drilled well?
What is the diameter of the casing?

 

[QueBota]

Drilled well, circa 1979, based on previous owner and neighbors accounts wells are around 225' +/- deep. PVC casing at the surface, I installed a "modern" plastic cap on the casing few years ago, the old metal one was a bear to remove, looked like it hadn't been touched in a while.

Casing appears to be approx. 4" in diameter, water feed line from casing to pressure tank is 1" standard black poly pipe.

Dave

 

[QueBota]

Photolink at Snapfish, not sure if this will work. Will try to annotate pics sometime this AM.

For some reason the allow browsing without creating an account is not working at this time, looks like Snapfish wants you to create an account before it will allow you to browse the pics. Working on that and adding some explanatory notes.

Added the notes, looks like you have to create an account to view. The pictures don't do the roots justice, there are way more than you can see and they are larger and more massive than you could imagine, some a like trees underground.

http://www5.snapfish.com/snapfish/t...k/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/] Well Pipe Leak Pics

Dave

 

[Carl_NH]

Dave,

You can just add pics here - two or three should get the general idea. Go to manage attachments and add them - there is a 1MB per photo size limit. If they are bigger than that you can compress them too.

I get enough junk mail now without signing up for another photo acct etc.

From the one pic I did see you need to expand your hole a bit I think..

 

[turnkey4099]

Due to the roots and other issues it looks like you have a real major project. I had much the same (no roots at least) in a 1/4 mile run to a community well. Leaked badly, basically wouild leak almost the entire out put of the the pump.

Happened also in the spring. My solution was to string a temporary line (I used PVC) between house and well, wait for after harvest, rent ditch witch and just "go for it ignoring any wire/pipe etc encounted, except for the phone line, I had that marked and handdug that stretch. When ditch was finished I just moved the new piping over and dropped it in.

Temp line above ground would only require digging a bit at the well and house ends, cutting existing line (and wire if unavoidable) and patching the temp pipe in. that would give you all summer/fall to do the replacement right without being rushed.

Harry K

 

[QueBota]

UPDATE my own thread.

Finally had enough time to work on my "project" for several hours in a row.

Had to dig approx. 3 feet further towards the house and 3 feet down. Fortunately at this point the water line was clear of the incredible mass of roots. Looks like I was lucky for a change. The break in the water line appears to have been caused by the levering effect of the root mass it was passing through.

There was a small stress crack on the top of the line where the roots were really tweaking the pipe. I cut the pipe off as close to the root bound section as possible and installed a "patch" section about 3 feet long. Took a bit of wrestling to get the patch to align with the rest of line. I had to run it in a loose curve above the mass of roots. I used irrigation style barbs and double clamps to install the patch. If I went with brass or the standard poly barbs they would have been to long to accomadate the bend/twist in the patch section. Had to tap the barbs into the existing pipe ends with a soft block of wood the forced the patch ends onto the barbs, they didn't want to sit square to the shoulder.

My son had to hold the patch in place will I clamped down the patch section. The nice thing about the irrigation barbs is they are a bit shorter than standard barbs, have a nice shoulder in the center, and I think they are slightly flexible, which enabled the patch section to be clamped to the barb in a circle instead of an oval, the longer barbs would have levered the pipe away from the barbs.

I thought they were going to blow apart when we turned on the pump, but knock on wood, no leaks as of this AM, approx. 12 hours since the splice was installed. Waiting for the next weak spot to spring a leak now that this leak has been addressed.

Now that I have regular water service for the wife and girls I can remove the giant root mass and lay the pipe flat in the trench. I plan on digging a new trench during the summer and placing the power feed and water line in a larger pipe or conduit.

Will take some pics and post them to the photo section this evening, never could get the SnapFish photo links to work out the way I wanted them to.

Thanks for all the good advice,
Dave