Working on tractor with loader up...do you?

[gemini5362]

Renze I believe the problem is people that look to this website for information. There will be some people that have never had a tractor with FEL before and know absolutely nothing about hydraulics.

so...the conclusion is that the majority of people here agrees that i'm an idiot, because what i say might misguide some rookies that never been around FELs before, who follow blindly what they read here ?? Then who are the idiots

lifting chains might break. They are tested annually in a hydraulic test bench that strains them to somewhere about 150% of the nominal permitted work load. If they hold, they are safety approved for professional use for another year.

when i attack the muck heap with my loader, the rear end of my Zetor 5245 comes loose when i back out of the bunk silo because there´s a nasty 1 foot high ridge to keep effluent in and rain water out.
When there is just an empty bucket, the pressure in the cylinder will be somewhere about 10% of the scenario when it is loaded to full lift capacity and you ride over a bump.-
The chance that the hydraulic system will just break, is next to non existant.
IF it does break, there is so little pressure in the cylinder that it takes quite some time before all the oil is pressed out and the loader is down.

Now there might be a chance that it starts going down due to a leaking cylinder o ring. If there was enough leakage to make oil seep past the o ring on an empty loader, the fully loaded loader will drop down so fast that you´d sure noticed. In that scenario i might think it over, but with leakage within normal operating margins, i dont care at all to work under it.
When i hide myself behind a welding helmet, i do check the loader every few minutes just to be sure, but for a 100 hour service, the risk of getting hurt by a dropping loader is a 1000 times smaller than getting hurt by the flower pot that falls off the balcony of the 5th floor....

I can respect your opinion about safety, so i expect you to respect mine as well (unless you´re an idiot off course)

I believe I have stated in another post that previous to my present position I worked in a steel mill as part of the maintenance department. I have seen several instances where hydraulics stopped working all of a sudden. I have seen front end loaders with a very light load all of a sudden drop to the ground. I have seen hydraulics that tilted a furnace weighing in excess of a 100 tons fail or fall forward onto the mechanical stops. Most of the cases I have seen have been from something in the valving and a lot of time it was from a check valve. The mill where I worked often chained 15 to 30 ton steel bars to lifting magnets on a crane and moved them around the plant. I do not ever remember one instance of a lifting chain breaking. I am glad that you have not been privy to catastrophic failure. I dont know why you check the loader every few minutes when you are under a welding helmet if you are sure that instantaneous failures cannot occur. There should be no need to stop welding just to check. That sounds very counter productive to me.

I agree anyone that would come on here and see your anti-safety advice then follow it without reading all the rest of the posts about being safe is an idiot.

I am glad you can respect my opinion about safety but I dont believe there is anywhere that says I have to respect your opinion. I am not an idiot I just happen to believe you are wrong. I do not respect any opinion that says it is ok to work unsafely and makes fun of people that do work safely.

 

[Soundguy]

At least on our manlift.. there are safety check pilots on the hyd cyl itself...

I'm sure something similar is used in many other modern man-lift applications

We have a couple units that also have inertial drop arrestors built into the mechaincal telescoping framework... not sure how common that is.. but that model I'm speaking of is a small electric over hyd unit to be used indoors to work on ceiling lighting.. etc..

Soundguy

If hydraulics are so uncertain is using a man platform or a cherry picker dangerous ? I used to have a tree care business where we used a telehandler with a work platform attached to it for high work, the boys seemed to prefer that to hanging on a rope with a chainsaw tied to your belt.
Previously i said that i use angle iron when working under loaders but only for something major like an inframe motor rebuild , use common sense when greasing or whatever you can avoid standing directly under the bucket.

 

[Renze]

I am glad you can respect my opinion about safety but I dont believe there is anywhere that says I have to respect your opinion. I am not an idiot I just happen to believe you are wrong. I do not respect any opinion that says it is ok to work unsafely and makes fun of people that do work safely.

Then you might have a problem.... MY opinion is that it is safe. I dont make fun of anyone that thinks it is not safe to work under raised loader booms, it's your assumption, because i reply to people agreeing that i am an idiot for doing so...

I did not say it is o.k. to work unsafe. My conception of safe working practice is just a little different than yours, I dont have any problems with that at all, but it seems you do....

Every footstep you set might be your last. every one of them involves a risk. Some more than others, some steps involve so much risk that not everybody is willing to take them, others so little that nobody even thinks of their existance. Inbetween is a grey area, it aint black and white.
I dont think it makes sense to create black or white from the grey inbetween.

"what is truth? "

 

[gemini5362]

Then you might have a problem.... MY opinion is that it is safe. I dont make fun of anyone that thinks it is not safe to work under raised loader booms, it's your assumption, because i reply to people agreeing that i am an idiot for doing so...

I did not say it is o.k. to work unsafe. My conception of safe working practice is just a little different than yours, I dont have any problems with that at all, but it seems you do....

Every footstep you set might be your last. every one of them involves a risk. Some more than others, some steps involve so much risk that not everybody is willing to take them, others so little that nobody even thinks of their existance. Inbetween is a grey area, it aint black and white.
I dont think it makes sense to create black or white from the grey inbetween.

"what is truth? "

OK, where do i begin, first of all some of the comments about turning this into an idiot versus paranoid discussion, talking about living in fear, etc is making fun of people that advocate safety. What I get out of your statement above is. YOU dont say it is ok to work unsafe, YOU just decide what is and isnt safe, If it is something that you feel is safe and others feel that it is unsafe they are either paranoid or living in fear. It is interesting that every other poster in this topic feels that working under raised and unblocked loader arms is unsafe. Not just a few but every person that posted to this topic besides you feel that it is unsafe. Your response to them was once again that they were paranoid and living in fear. You mentioned that you respond to people calling you an idiot. I believe in one of your earlier posts that you said " I TOO AM AN IDIOT." in the same post someone posted one of the reasons working under raised loader arms being unsafe was because an " O " ring might break. Your response to that was a literary reply of "That is crap" I do not know that people are calling you an idiot or just agreeing with you that you are one. I have said that you have the right to your opinion as do I and the other posters on this website. If you want to work under those conditions feel free to do so. It is just sad that you feel the need to make disparaging comments to those that disagree with you.

 

[jimmysisson]

Years ago I used a TLB to help hoist a barn frame into place. Guys were swarming all over the thing to set braces and pin tenons. Worked great, saved lots of manual labor. Next day, neighbor borrows TLB to spread a little gravel, empty bucket drops (from 2' up) zap! to ground when hose ruptures. Ever since (35 yrs) I've been cautious, not paranoid, around raised implements. Nothing teaches like a near accident.
Jim

 

[mjarrels]

My rule is that anything that is man-made will at some point fail.

mark

 

[Soundguy]

You are exactly correct.

In post #21.. he called himself an idiot. In post # 24, I said, literally, that I agreed with him.

For the record.. OSHA and every equipment manufacturer than i can find has warnings about working under unsupported hyds. That's why my batwing mower has safety decals all over it, and swing down, pin-in-place' safety arms that prevent the wings from falling, and swing down supports to hold the lift wheels up if the lift cyl leads down.

I also agree.. with your take on the situation. Renze doesn't say it is ok to be unsafe.. but he does say that it is up to him to decide what is unsafe.. thus defacto.. he is saying it is ok to do things that are generally accepted to be unsafe as long as he is ok with it.. Gotta love circular logic and rationilization..

Soundguy

OK, where do i begin, first of all some of the comments about turning this into an idiot versus paranoid discussion, talking about living in fear, etc is making fun of people that advocate safety. What I get out of your statement above is. YOU dont say it is ok to work unsafe, YOU just decide what is and isnt safe, If it is something that you feel is safe and others feel that it is unsafe they are either paranoid or living in fear. It is interesting that every other poster in this topic feels that working under raised and unblocked loader arms is unsafe. Not just a few but every person that posted to this topic besides you feel that it is unsafe. Your response to them was once again that they were paranoid and living in fear. You mentioned that you respond to people calling you an idiot. I believe in one of your earlier posts that you said " I TOO AM AN IDIOT." in the same post someone posted one of the reasons working under raised loader arms being unsafe was because an " O " ring might break. Your response to that was a literary reply of "That is crap" I do not know that people are calling you an idiot or just agreeing with you that you are one. I have said that you have the right to your opinion as do I and the other posters on this website. If you want to work under those conditions feel free to do so. It is just sad that you feel the need to make disparaging comments to those that disagree with you.

 

[Renze]

I was getting back to what was written in these posts:

Okay, I'll step up to the podium: My name is George and I'm an idiot.

Guess that I am an idiot, have cleaned the screen with the loader up.

Now i dont find it interesting enough to dig into the linguistic details etcetera to determin if i called myself an idiot, or i was being sarcastic about the direction this thread was taking...

Then somethign else: i didnt say that it was crap to not work under raised loaders. I said that it is crap thinking that everything with a .59$ct part in it that might defunct, is unsafe.

My remark about paranoids vs. stupid, it was only a sketch of the direction this thread was taking after some smart people decided to teach us how they think everybody else should work.... It just aint working that way

About making fun of people that advocate safety, did that hurt you ?? Or are you just uncomfortable with people that advocate their opinion ?

I think i better withdraw from this discussion, it's getting us nowhere.
Renze

 

[Soundguy]

You may be on to something here. it seems the rest of the responders in this threas are thinking fairly rationally, and DON'T advocate doing something that is unsafe, that can be made safe VERY EASILY in just a couple minutes or less, an with no cost.

Kinda like putting your cigarette out before looking down into your gas tank, vs not doing it. One is obviously safer than the other.. The safe options takes virtually no time and is free. Doing it the unsafe way may not ever get you hurt.. until that one time the cherry falls into the tank.. it's that slim chance / 1 time that rational people take some modest steps to avoid, reguardless if the chance of it happening is slim or wide.... Hard to put up a credible argument against that sort of thing..

In all fairness.. i don't think anyone disagrees with you that the liklyhood of a failure is very remote.. it's just that no one wants to take the chance when it is so easy to get mitigate the danger.. Perhaps if it was a different set of circumstances.. then opinions may be different.. however.. for this set of circumstances.. it's pretty apparrent what the majority is thinking.

good luck

Soundguy

I think i better withdraw from this discussion, it's getting us nowhere.
Renze

 

[Redbug]

At work, we are taught that when working in a condition that is unsafe we either... 1. Do not continue the work in an unsafe manner... 2. Engineer a safer way to continue the work, either through certain safe practices/procedures or using physical means of safety such as barriers, shields, etc. But, why take chances? I know some people just HAVE to jump out of a perfectly safe plane for the fun of it...but...in most cases Darwin's Law sooner or later, (depending upon the odds), will weed out the rest.

So...that means using pipe sections with tie wraps on the cylinders as stops, a brace of some sort or some other method. Here's another method...

 

[Defective]

Here's another method...

Almost...

I'd chalk the wheels.

 

[Renze]

I wonder if you'd be the one to initiate a lawsuit against the manufacturer when the hydraulics eventually fail...

No, actually i'd be the one that builds his own loader from scratch....
So i'm not really the type for lawsuits...

 

[CDsdad]

Renze, using your logic, I assume you would have no problem with your children, grandchildren, or whatever child you may have playing under a raised loader. Since it is safe (according to you) to work under it should be more than OK for YOUR child to play under it. Stay in Holland, we got some idiots to send you so you won't be lonely.

 

[mwark]

In all fairness.. i don't think anyone disagrees with you that the liklyhood of a failure is very remote.. it's just that no one wants to take the chance when it is so easy to get mitigate the danger.. Perhaps if it was a different set of circumstances.. then opinions may be different.. however.. for this set of circumstances.. it's pretty apparrent what the majority is thinking.

good luck

Soundguy

I have read this entire post and after reading this the penny dropped for me. I think I understand the point that Renze is trying to make.
I wonder how many of us that are having an almost religious reaction to “safety” issues like working under an unsupported loader, do thing like smoke cigs, drive a car without a seat belt, fishing with no life jacket, are 20 of more pounds over weight, drink more than two adult beverages a day.
With out question these activities and many more like them are going to do much more harm too many more to our members than working under an unsupported loader.

I’ll continue to eat right not smoke wear my seat belt and support my loader.:

 

[Soundguy]

Maybee less than you think.

I don't smoke, I wear a seatbelt in any vehicle equipped with one, If I'm on a boat I'm wearing a flotation vest, I'm at my ideal weight, and drink only a couple adult beverages a year...

As freud would say.. sometimes a cigar is a cigar. regardles sof the fact that smoking IS bad for you.. standing under an unsuported loader is STILL unsafe.

Soundguy

 

[mwark]

Maybee less than you think.


Soundguy

Maybe more than you think...

This is "The Worlds Largest Tractor Community" with over 30,000 members. That's a city in Maine. The point is that the percentage of members that smoke or ride a motor cycles will be similar to the general population. If you are correct in your assertion that “that the likelihood of a failure is very remote..” and I agree with you it is. There is no reason for any members to criticize another member for behavior were the likelihood of injury far less than activities that many of us participate in everyday.

Like I said, I support my FEL before going under it but he’s not an idiot because he doesn’t and I’m certainly not going to say to him “Stay in Holland, we got some idiots to send you so you won't be lonely”.

 

[gemini5362]

I agree with soundguy there might be less than you think. I am overweight by about 30 pounds, I dont drink adult beverages, (does Dr. Pepper count as an adult beverage ?) , I dont smoke, I always were a life vest, I wear my seat belt ( Buckle up, It's the law) I do ride a motorcycle but you will never see me get on any forum and say it is not extremely dangerous. That is where the difference I feel at least for me seems to be. I dont care if he or anyone else works under there loader unsupported. Where my problem is when someone does that and tries to say it is ok because it is not unsafe. I do several things that are not safe, I ride my bike, I scuba dive, I have been known to hang glide, and I argue with my wife. Those are all unsafe things to do and I will freely admit that they are unsafe. It is my choice to do them and take my risks. I would feel that I was doing other people who read a forum for information a terrible disservice if I was to say yeah go ahead and go hang glideing it is not unsafe I do it all the time. We are all responsible for our actions It is ok if we want to take risks. I do not feel it is ok to encourage others to do so.

 

[gemini5362]

Maybee less than you think.

I don't smoke, I wear a seatbelt in any vehicle equipped with one, If I'm on a boat I'm wearing a flotation vest, I'm at my ideal weight, and drink only a couple adult beverages a year...

As freud would say.. sometimes a cigar is a cigar. regardles sof the fact that smoking IS bad for you.. standing under an unsuported loader is STILL unsafe.

Soundguy

Hmm soundguy do you always wear your seatbelt when you are on your tractor ?