Where's the water going? (Another well pump question)

[Jstpssng]

New shallow well pump, with a 30/50 pressure switch, 300 feet of new 1" line. At one time it would gravity feed from the spring to my house.
I hooked the pump up to a 55 gallon barrel of water and backfed it to fill the new waterline. I put the foot valve back on, turned the lines around and it pumped water but wouldn't build any pressure. I pulled the pressure gauge and dumped 4 gallons of water in which disappeared as fast as I can pour it... It only has a 2 gallon tank. When I unplugged the pump the water started spraying back out again, so I put the gauge back in and did it over again with similar results.
I've been trying to get water going again for way too long at the expense of everything else to get ready for winter. To aggravate more my landline/home internet is down until at least Tuesday, (like everybody else in town), so doing a search from this little phone with marginal service is all that I have. There's got to be something I'm missing.

 

[RNeumann]

How far below the pump is the well water line (lift)? How many feet of line is between the pump and well?

 

[Stimw]

Spraying back out when off sounds like something is hooked up backwards. ???

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Shallow well pumps are a pain. It takes only a tiny amount of air on the suction side to lose flow.

Things that can cause a pump not to move water: The pump isn't primed or the line has air. The line has a suction leak. The pump isn't generating suction. The foot valve isn't allowing water in. The foot valve isn't holding.

I've had good luck with shallow wells using a utility pump and a garden hose to backfill the line, with the foot valve on. I know there is the possibility of an airlock forming but I haven't seen that in practice. One inch poly pipe holds 0.045 gallons per foot, so 300 feet holds just under 13 gallons. If you fill it with the foot valve on and it takes more than 13 gallons, you've got a leak.

If you can fill the suction pipe with water, and it holds the water, and pump won't pump, odds are you've got a suction leak. It takes only a little bit of air to keep the pump from moving water. Sometimes wrapping the fittings on the suction side with plastic wrap will seal them. Sometimes covering fittings with shaving cream will show where air is leaking in.

I put a hose bib on my well on the suction side, which I use to fill it when necessary. You could also put a suction gauge there. When the pump isn't running there should be a vacuum equal to the height of the water column in the intake pipe. When the pump is running there should be a greater vacuum. If there is vacuum and no water is flowing I would suspect the foot valve.

Good luck, it can be frustrating.

 

[Jstpssng]

How far below the pump is the well water line (lift)? How many feet of line is between the pump and well?

300 feet of 1" line, it's about a 5' drop from the well to the house.
I am reading all of the comments posted, but my internet is marginal until the phone company fixes the lines.
Thank you everybody for the help.

 

[RNeumann]

Trying to “pull” water 300’ to the pump is a difficult task under ideal conditions. In theory it “should” work. But the reality is the pump needs to be much closer to the well.

If water is continuing to flow “down” the pipe when you are trying to fill the pipe you have a leak or bad foot/check valve.

The other issue is that the most pressure you can overcome pulling water is a little over 14psi. So in that 300’ you have friction loss plus the 5’ or lift plus any other issues......basically back to my first comment. It’s going to be very difficult to make this work.

 

[Jstpssng]

Trying to “pull” water 300’ to the pump is a difficult task under ideal conditions. In theory it “should” work. But the reality is the pump needs to be much closer to the well.

If water is continuing to flow “down” the pipe when you are trying to fill the pipe you have a leak or bad foot/check valve.

The other issue is that the most pressure you can overcome pulling water is a little over 14psi. So in that 300’ you have friction loss plus the 5’ or lift plus any other issues......basically back to my first comment. It’s going to be very difficult to make this work.

It worked for 14 years though... I haven't tried it lately but it would gravity feed before I hooked the first pump up. One thing I don't understand is how the water can disappear when the pump is running, then surge back up when I unplug the pump.
One very real possibility is that my new pump is too small. I replaced the Gould's for a_1/2_HP discount pump, thinking that since it gravity fed I didn't need very much pump power.

 

[LouNY]

I would tend to agree with the other poster is your pump plumbed backwards, for the water to disappear with the pump running and surge back when you shut it off.
If I'm reading correctly your house is lower then your water source, most pumps would self prime in that situation.
This is not a jet pump is it?

 

[Jstpssng]

^^^^
That was my first thought also, but I did check the manual. (And I have done this before) Besides did pump water UP the 300 foot waterline with the lines reversed and the intake line hooked into a gravity fed water barrel.
Based on the replies I'm starting to think that this pump just isn't strong enough to build pressure. Now that I've dug tbe trench I want to finish the job right, preferably befofe next week's snowstorm.
I may have to bury the new line and spend the winter like Jill's brother, Jack.

 

[laurencen]

why not put the pump in the well, if trench is open easy to bury power lines

 

[bcp]

I'm confused. I need a diagram before I can offer any suggestions.

Bruce

 

[Tractor Seabee]

A diagram or good pictures of the system would help a lot. Unfortunately you may not be able to send pictures or graphics with your cell phone set up. In lieu of that start at the well and describe each component as you work toward the house. Identify which are existing and which are new. What is the lift from the well water level to the inlet of the pump assuming the pump is at the well head. Shallow well pumps max out at 25'. The closer you get to 25' the flow starts to diminish as friction takes over some of the capacity. Try to generate a word picture in simple terms. I am still confused as to where the pump actually is located. If you are trying to suck water trough 300' of pipe you are probably whistling Dixie. Shallow well pumps are not high lift pumps, takes more than one stage for that. Trouble shooting as was mentioned before; you need a vacuum gauge on the suction side of the pump. That 300", of pipe used for gravity may have some serious leaks that did not show up or were significant until the pump came into the picture.

Ron

 

[Valveman]

Start with the model number of the pump so we can see how much pressure it is suppose to make.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Trying to 菟ull water 300 to the pump is a difficult task under ideal conditions. In theory it 都hould work. But the reality is the pump needs to be much closer to the well.
So in that 300 you have friction loss plus the 5 or lift plus any other issues......basically back to my first comment. It痴 going to be very difficult to make this work.

I've got two houses with shallow wells that are far away. The pump is in the house, it makes wiring and frost-proofing so much easier. The horizontal distance isn't nearly as big a factor as the vertical distance.

According to this table, PE - PolyEthylene Pipes, Flow and Pressure Loss the pressure loss for 1" poly pipe at 4.8 gallons/minute is 0.67 PSI per 100 feet, or 2 PSI for 300 feet, or 4.65 feet of head for 300 feet. At 9.5 GPM it would be 6.9 PSI or 16.2 feet of head. Generally shallow pumps can generate about 25 feet of head so if your well is only 5 feet you should have plenty of suction for at least 10 GPM.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

A couple small leaks (not noticeable under gravity) screws up the suction equation in a hurry introducing air. Air will leak in under vacuum where they will not show under water pressure. Once the air pockets in the discharge assembly flow stops. I am sure a hydraulic engineer would never recommend a long suction line. In my 65 years working in and around the mechanical trades I have never seen it done. Our old rule was first get the suction side as close to the water source as possible with the fewest fittings possible, and the lowest lift. Pump below the water level is ideal for single stage pumps. Too small (too much combined lift head) a suction line will cause cavitation (flashing off) of the water in the pump suction inlet compounding the problem more. Always size one or two up from the calculations. I have even put bell reducers on the suction inlets to increase the size. Never use bushings on either side of the pump as they cause extra turbulence. When ever you work on the outer edge of the calculations you become vulnerable to variables. What one person gets by with may not work in a different scenario.

Ron

Ron

 

[DieselBound]

Is there a check valve toward the well end?

I think that Tractor Seabee is correct, that you're likely sucking in air.

I'd look to test the pump removed from existing plumbing to confirm whether it's operating correctly or not. If you had a check valve you could pressure from the end of the line at the pump back toward the well to see if you have a leak.

 

[Jstpssng]

The only places that it could be leaking is the foot valve on one end of the line; or where it attaches to the pump. I pushed water from the bottom of the hill up into the spring to fill the hose, so I know that it's pumping. I don't get home until after dark and it's been raining nonstop since I posted this; so while I have been reading suggestions I've been unable to act on them.
It's a 1/2 HP Star Jet Pump that I bought after my Goulds froze one night at the start of this fiaso.

 

[3Ts]

At one time it would gravity feed from the spring to my house.

300 feet of 1" line, it's about a 5' drop from the well to the house.

Since it is a jet pump and it would gravity feed from the spring to the house before the pump, you should be able to open a drain plug in the pump housing and water should flow out of it just like an open tap. If it doesn't, I'd wonder if there is an obstruction (like a kink) in the 1" poly. I think there is an obstruction in the pipe.

(could also be a frozen check valve or foot valve)

Ummm, pumps usually come with plastic plugs to protect the threads, and sometimes the plastic gets damaged in-transit so that they are not obvious. You did verify that all the plug pieces were removed before attaching the fittings?

 

[3Ts]

In this particular application, it sounds like all you're doing is using the pump to boost the pressure. If you bypass the pump does the water flow? You won't get much pressure (5' * .43 psi/ft) and it should be self-priming since the spring is running.