Whats wrong with tier 4

[grm61]

Aside from the added and unwanted complexity, I suspect that the life cycle cost of these machines will be much higher.

Funny how few people look at true cost as opposed to purchase price or in these days, monthly payments.

Kind of like a customer of mine with a high efficiency gas furnace. He spent maybe six thousand dollars on it in repairs lately. DC motors, boards, you name it! That thing sure is efficient on fuel usage but could give a **** about how much of his money it burns!

Maybe some people on here don't know that a "real" diesel doesn't even need power. If you can get it started, with an electric starter, or running it down hill, or even a crank, it will run without power. And this was one of the beautiful things about a diesel.

Now, fast forward to 2015. There could easily be a hundred electrical connections that have to be perfect for your "diesel" to run. That and possibly a few hundred thousand (maybe more?) transistor semiconductor junctions that have to be working properly (as well as computer code) for your tractor to run. You had better hope, that the manufacturer spend the required R&D time and money as well as not having cheaped out, and spent the money to make sure all of that stuff was of the highest quality and can withstand the widely varying extremes to which a tractor can be subjected to.

And if not, THAT is what can be WRONG with Tier 4! In my opinion.

How many cup holders come with tier 4? :laughing::drink:

 

[buickanddeere]

Simpler is more reliable .
The efficiency increase with emissions delete is from two major and one minor influence . Injecting fuel earlier does increase NOX but it improves combustion efficiency . Eliminating EGR improves combustion efficiency and improves thermal efficiency. Freeing up the exhaust usually has little effect except at max rpm and max HP levels.

 

[houstonscott]

Simpler is more reliable . The efficiency increase with emissions delete is from two major and one minor influence . Injecting fuel earlier does increase NOX but it improves combustion efficiency . Eliminating EGR improves combustion efficiency and improves thermal efficiency. Freeing up the exhaust usually has little effect except at max rpm and max HP levels.

Making the assumption that "simple more reliable" = "less or no electronics" is a big mistake. HS

 

[Dr_Zinj]

Tier 4 contains more parts than Tier 3. Assuming that the reliability rate for each part has not improved (a reasonable assumption), then the Tier 4 engines will fail more often than the Tier 3 ones.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Tier 4 contains more parts than Tier 3. Assuming that the reliability rate for each part has not improved (a reasonable assumption), then the Tier 4 engines will fail more often than the Tier 3 ones.

Tier 3 and tier 4 are not about the parts. They are the regulations or emissions standards that the manufacturers have to meet. The parts come in with how the different manufacturers meet those standards. And manufacturers are meeting those standards differently. Case in point how Mahindra got there and how Kubota is evolving.

 

[Bud Soda]

It's not that a problem will happen, it's when and where. Obama through sand in my face.

 

[s219]

It's not that a problem will happen, it's when and where. Obama through sand in my face.

The EPA tier system started in 1998 and Tier 4 started kicking in back in 2007. Better blame Clinton and Bush. Obama probably doesn't even know it's happening....

 

[jd4310man]

Im with Industrialtoys, The beauty of the diesel was its fuel efficiency, simple robust design, low maintenance, Long life. Anything that is MECHANICAL is dependable! Ya if your mechanical injection pump goes down, you all know how much that is to fix. Now add a common rail with electronic injectors, a control modal, sensors out the wazoo, and a really expensive muffler (DPF for short). And then tell me how much more money it will cost to keep the electronic beast running? I could live with electronic injection system, but all the emission crap has NOTHING to do with it making power! Look at it from a practical perspective and there is no reason to have emissions on a tractor, (or any other diesel for that matter). If im shelling out 20, 30 ,40, or more thousand for a tractor, my main concern is that its going to run when I need it, easy to maintain, and be relatively fuel efficient. Not how clean the exhaust is. Diesels up to this point fulfilled the requirements for a primary power source. Now we have to worry about the exhaust and how much pollution its making? Total government EPA BULLCRAP! I love the diesel engine, but now its ruined because this government wants more reasons to tax and fine US the PEOPLE! And the manufactures go right along with is because they can make more $$$ from it. End of rant.

 

[paulfun9]

Making the assumption that "simple more reliable" = "less or no electronics" is a big mistake. HS

I am not making an assumption! Experience has proven time and again that the more electronics they install in my cars/trucks and equipment has proven to = more break downs. Not only that but it has proven to force towing for some very simple things that one should be able to get home with the problem.

 

[paulfun9]

Making the assumption that "simple more reliable" = "less or no electronics" is a big mistake. HS

I am not making an assumption! Experience has proven time and again that the more electronics they install in my cars/trucks and equipment has proven to = more break downs. Not only that but it has proven to force towing for some very simple things that one should be able to get home with the problem.

 

[houstonscott]

My experience is cars, trucks, and tractors of today are far more reliable than "in the day". In the sixties you'd be lucky to get to 30k before a valve job. Fuels were dirty and lubrication gunked. No my friend friend, things today are far superior, even the least expensive machines well go to 100k without a wrench, and tractors will be no different. HS

 

[KevT]

My experience is cars, trucks, and tractors of today are far more reliable than "in the day". In the sixties you'd be lucky to get to 30k before a valve job. Fuels were dirty and lubrication gunked. No my friend friend, things today are far superior, even the least expensive machines well go to 100k without a wrench, and tractors will be no different. HS

You have a point... my 69 ford PU went 50K before a new engine was required, my 06 ford PU has 210K and still running strong

 

[Threepoint]

My experience is cars, trucks, and tractors of today are far more reliable than "in the day". In the sixties you'd be lucky to get to 30k before a valve job. Fuels were dirty and lubrication gunked. No my friend friend, things today are far superior, even the least expensive machines well go to 100k without a wrench, and tractors will be no different. HS

+1 on this. Whether the same will hold true for the emissions systems as they continue to evolve is yet to be seen, of course. So far, I'm very happy with my final Tier 4 Kioti NX4510HST after a year. :thumbsup: Clean, quiet, nearly odorless, and starts immediately even on the coldest winter days around here (although that's typically only down to 5 - 10 F). I do run it hard when I use it, mostly heavy box-blade work at PTO rpm, and in 80 or so hrs it's only regenerated once. I suspect the harder they're used, the less the NX series needs to auto-regen.

One thing that puzzles me in this thread is the frequent reference to Tier 3 vs. Tier 4, even with tractors only several years old. I thought interim Tier 4 has been the requirement on tractors in the U.S. over 26 hp for several years, no? So some of the folks who think they have Tier 3 may actually have interim Tier 4. Don't know for sure, but I bet even salesmen sometimes have been referring to pre-2014 tractors as Tier 3 rather than get into nuances of interim vs. final.

 

[buickanddeere]

A simple matter of a machine with 10,000 parts which a 99.99% reliable will have more break downs than a machine with 5,000 parts that are 99.99% reliable.

 

[Sysop]

One thing that puzzles me in this thread is the frequent reference to Tier 3 vs. Tier 4, even with tractors only several years old. I thought interim Tier 4 has been the requirement on tractors in the U.S. over 26 hp for several years, no? So some of the folks who think they have Tier 3 may actually have interim Tier 4. Don't know for sure, but I bet even salesmen sometimes have been referring to pre-2014 tractors as Tier 3 rather than get into nuances of interim vs. final.

Interim tier4 was in (at least) some cases more like a tier3 than today's true tier4. My Mahindra has an interim T4 motor in it and is not nearly as complex as the mCRD T4 engine that replaces my engine on the new models.

My interim T4 4035 has what is basically an old 3cyl Perkins with a Bosch fuel system and was designed to be a 40HP output motor. Pretty much all of the engine bay wiring is for the charging and starting circuits (there are of course things like the oil pressure sending unit for a reading on the dash and the KSB cold start assist common to Bosch fuel systems, those are common/easy things that don't make up most of the wiring)

The new T4 3540 uses the same 4cyl used in several models ranging from something like 35 to 50 HP. I've not looked under the hoods of any of them, but I'm assuming by the descriptions I've read that the difference in power is ECM controlled rather than at the fuel pump, therefore they are likely much more complex electronically.

 

[oldpilgrim]

My experience is cars, trucks, and tractors of today are far more reliable than "in the day". In the sixties you'd be lucky to get to 30k before a valve job. Fuels were dirty and lubrication gunked. No my friend friend, things today are far superior, even the least expensive machines well go to 100k without a wrench, and tractors will be no different. HS

This has nothing to do with electronics....or anti pollution parts. It has to do with more precise machining, better design, better metallurgy, better oils and better fuels....not electronics.

A simple matter of a machine with 10,000 parts which a 99.99% reliable will have more break downs than a machine with 5,000 parts that are 99.99% reliable.

absolutely.

 

[paulfun9]

This has nothing to do with electronics....or anti pollution parts. It has to do with more precise machining, better design, better metallurgy, better oils and better fuels....not electronics.



absolutely.

Exactly! I can definitely agree with the base mechanicals being better for some of the newer stuff but when I think about all the break downs I have had over the years the electrical on the cars newer than 1990 have been more frequent, more costly and much more of a pain in the butt.

Yep My 1964 Dodge needed a valve job at about 60,000 miles but the car had no other issues and we kept it till 1989 threw 3 kids with just normal maintenance. Funny thing is that valve job was done on a sat morning and the car was running in the afternoon and cost me less time and money than the crank sensor that went south on one of our jeeps which made the towing cost more expensive all by itself than the entire valve job on that old dodge. Now add to that down time till I could diagnose it then having to wait for 3 days for the right part to come in when the first 2 sensors they gave me were wrong.

Take away the fancy electronics and cars today could run a lot longer than they do.

Since I know someone will bring it up yes I like not having to change points out, like back then but if it meant getting rid of all the electronic crap I would have no problem going back to keeping a spare in the glove box like we did back then.

 

[Coyote machine]

YIKES! This thread is STILL going on?!
Everything since solid state ignitions has been computer controlled to some extent or another. Ever wonder why it's almost impossibe to get even a toaster to make toast? Really, I can't believe how many brands and 2 and 4 slice toasters I've been through in the last 10-15 years. And not one of them seems capable of making toast to my liking. I mean is it impossible to get two sides toasted to the same consistency?
Electronics is in EVERYTHING, and most of it doesn't work worth a dam! I mean refrigerators, dishwashers, washing machines, you name it, its made cheaper from printed circuit boards made in places overseas, and just about all of it is JUNK.
At this point we're lucky anything works at all, yet alone as intended, or for as long as promised. How 'bout those compact fluorescent bulbs, you know with the Mercury in them? 10,000 hours?! Yeah, more like 10 hours, or dead on arrival at your house.
So the government adding more junk to our tractors to stop our outrageous pollution of the planet is the top priority? How about stopping the oil companies from their egregious pollution of the atmosphere, waters, lakes, rivers, oceans? Nah, that's way too costly to tackle. It's much easier to get us little guys to pay more now, and in future to keep the diesel particles out of the airstream.
I'm not saying cleaner diesel engines aren't important, they are, but they're not what the country really needs to focus on for a viable future of cleaner air.

 

[houstonscott]

YIKES! This thread is STILL going on?! Everything since solid state ignitions has been computer controlled to some extent or another. Ever wonder why it's almost impossibe to get even a toaster to make toast? Really, I can't believe how many brands and 2 and 4 slice toasters I've been through in the last 10-15 years. And not one of them seems capable of making toast to my liking. I mean is it impossible to get two sides toasted to the same consistency? Electronics is in EVERYTHING, and most of it doesn't work worth a dam! I mean refrigerators, dishwashers, washing machines, you name it, its made cheaper from printed circuit boards made in places overseas, and just about all of it is JUNK. At this point we're lucky anything works at all, yet alone as intended, or for as long as promised. How 'bout those compact fluorescent bulbs, you know with the Mercury in them? 10,000 hours?! Yeah, more like 10 hours, or dead on arrival at your house. So the government adding more junk to our tractors to stop our outrageous pollution of the planet is the top priority? How about stopping the oil companies from their egregious pollution of the atmosphere, waters, lakes, rivers, oceans? Nah, that's way too costly to tackle. It's much easier to get us little guys to pay more now, and in future to keep the diesel particles out of the airstream. I'm not saying cleaner diesel engines aren't important, they are, but they're not what the country really needs to focus on for a viable future of cleaner air.

Feel better?, oh, if it'll make you feel better the oil companies are not polluting the atmosphere, water, or lakes, rivers, or oceans. The air, water, food, and living conditions are far cleaner, safer, healthier, in the USA, than at anytime in the history of man kind. Smile, life is good. HS

 

[paulfun9]

YIKES! This thread is STILL going on?!
Everything since solid state ignitions has been computer controlled to some extent or another. Ever wonder why it's almost impossibe to get even a toaster to make toast? Really, I can't believe how many brands and 2 and 4 slice toasters I've been through in the last 10-15 years. And not one of them seems capable of making toast to my liking. I mean is it impossible to get two sides toasted to the same consistency?
Electronics is in EVERYTHING, and most of it doesn't work worth a dam! I mean refrigerators, dishwashers, washing machines, you name it, its made cheaper from printed circuit boards made in places overseas, and just about all of it is JUNK..

:laughing:

What I find most amusing about your rant is the fact that I have been searching the local auction for an OLD Fashioned toaster that will not let my Pop Tart fall down in and can actually toast my bread evenly on both sides consistently. My wife has purchased several new toasters over the past year and has not been able to find a good one yet. I suggested yesterday after trying to toast a waffle with the latest contraption that she look at industrial units like in a restraunt supply place.