Whats wrong with tier 4

[Utopia Texas]

I think the point is being missed that this is not just about Farmers and tractors. If you add up all the Diesel engines that are stationary for power plants, those used for large equipment/construction and those used on semi trucks the number of units are in the tens of millions world wide. Don't think just because you live in the sticks that what you breath is great for your lungs. It would be interesting to correlate opinions on this subject in relation to those that have children/grandchildren and those that do not.

 

[buickanddeere]

What are you going to do about the dust , pollen and mold naturally in the air ? Should the government set up HEPA filters across the entire country ?

 

[deezler]

What I am saying is that an engine equipped with a dpf filter that runs a regen is not decreasing the soot that goes into the air! In fact with the lower fuel mileage it is increasing it!

No, that's not true. It is capturing the soot, and then burning it off at high temperature where it can fully oxidize and come out the tailpipe much cleaner. Even if you use 20% more fuel, there can be 40-50% less soot and fine particulates.

 

[Recoveryhill]

Recovery Hill. Since when were physicians qualified to remark on engines ? Would the New England Journal of Medicine publish a farmer's article regarding human health ?

Physicians are scientists first, practitioners second. The contents of diesel soot are not disputed by anyone. The Physicians Journal is appropriately commenting on the risk of nano particles with attached organic compounds lodging deep in lung tissue. It's the particles. They just "happen" to originate in diesel engines without particle control.

 

[aginn]

Re: Whats wrong with tier 4

Added complexity (things to go wrong). And cost.

 

[Recoveryhill]

What are you going to do about the dust , pollen and mold naturally in the air ? Should the government set up HEPA filters across the entire country ?

With all due respect, neither dust nor pollen or mold are nano particles with polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons bonded to them. The problem is the size of the soot particles which go deep into lung tissue carrying their load of cancer causing chemicals. A dust particle is like 100 times larger than a nano particle. It's science.

I read a comment in another post that seemed to suggest Tier IV was useless in removing or reducing these particles. That is contrary to the facts. Are there better methods, or will there be better methods of dealing with this problem. Perhaps but that's how progress works.

Also noted was another comment that the "conspiracy" involves a plan to remove all internal combustion engines from "the people". Cuckoo...Cuckoo...

 

[truckdiagnostics]

No, that's not true. It is capturing the soot, and then burning it off at high temperature where it can fully oxidize and come out the tailpipe much cleaner. Even if you use 20% more fuel, there can be 40-50% less soot and fine particulates.

That maybe true. I would like to see data on total soot produced by an engine per gal of fuel used over the life time of the engine. Also, so when it comes out the tail pipe "cleaner" is it cleaner soot magic pixy dust..... or just less parts per million. Then you get into the country air verse the city air debate. I maintain, you burn it clean you burn less period you get less soot. Less fuel for the same amount of work=less soot emission or what ever we choose to call it. In my opinion the DPF controlled regen just does not pass the smell test.

 

[Recoveryhill]

Re: Whats wrong with tier 4

Added complexity (things to go wrong). And cost.

Listen, I understand and have taken my position on this not because I'm a flaming liberal. If I dump poison over the fence onto your property that is at least Trespass. If I shower you, your children and or workers with nano particles loaded with polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, that is Trespass just the same.

I don't have a right to have my work force you to breath dangerous pollution. That's a Libertarian View, not a Liberal View.

 

[buickanddeere]

Nano particles are just the current fad. Any irritant ingested into the lungs is a concern. If you were really concerned about people's health. Smoking would be banned and all basements monitored for radon and ventilated if required.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Stated another way, it is not tier IV I have issue with it is how the engine manufacturers are meeting the specs. Burning the fuel in the engine getting power lower fuel used good and meeting the specs without DPF good! Not burning the fuel to get power, using more fuel getting less power, catching it in a filter making it magic soot and still putting into the air bad. In a nut shell wait, i think the engine manufacturers will get it without the need for DPF. If you need a tractor now does the DPF system "work" yes. Does the DPF system really lower the "total" soot/emissions stuff an engine produces I don't think so. The only real way to do that is to get it to produce more power with less fuel.

 

[houstonscott]

Listen, I understand and have taken my position on this not because I'm a flaming liberal. If I dump poison over the fence onto your property that is at least Trespass. If I shower you, your children and or workers with nano particles loaded with polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, that is Trespass just the same. I don't have a right to have my work force you to breath dangerous pollution. That's a Libertarian View, not a Liberal View.

I would bet if you could rip out all the lungs in the USA you couldn't find a nano particle from a Diesel engine. HS

 

[DavesTractor]

Mahindra tractors, at least the sizes we work with here on TBN, have met Tier IV without the need for a DPF. Therefor no need to monitor the DPF and no need to have regen cycles, etc. They are still more complicated than the Tier III as they are now computer controlled and common rail, but computer controlled CRD diesels have been in pickups now for a long time and I think that technology is pretty good.

Not that I would worry that much about the DPF either honestly, but it is another system to maintain and it can have some minor drawbacks in use. I say if we can meet Tier IV without a DPF, that is best. Our 2008 Ford F350 had the DPF fail at 98k miles. Fortunately Ford took care of it under warranty. I think it was around $3k.

I think we all appreciate clean air. I do think there may be a sweet spot (maybe Tier III) where we got rid of most of the bad exhaust without making our tractors too complex. But I'm not a physician or a scientist.....

 

[AchingBack]

If I'm not mistaken, my 2005 Mahindra has a tier II engine. I think considering the flap about tier IV, my tractor should automatically be worth more. I know I am very thankful I was able to buy this when I did. To get a brand new equivalent tractor today would cost a lot more.

 

[oldpilgrim]

Introducing our Tier IV "mCRD Technology" | Mahindra

If Mahindra can do it, simply and relatively cheaply, I wonder why others can't? It seems that if it was a patented method (probably is) then Mahindra could license their technology to others and a lot of the issues that everyone is complaining about here would go away.

Everyone would be much happier, everyone wins. It seems like the other mfgers would jump at the chance to license the tech.

I too am very glad I got my 3016 last year.

 

[KevT]

Nano particles are just the current fad. Any irritant ingested into the lungs is a concern. If you were really concerned about people's health. Smoking would be banned and all basements monitored for radon and ventilated if required.

Hasn't that been done? I don't know of any public building that you can smoke in, and many businesses don't allow it on the property. In the city where I worked it was code on all new dwellings to install radon alarms. So with what you are saying, is it is okay to pollute the air if you want to buy an older tractor, just as you can smoke on your property, and breath radon gases if you don't want to know if it is under your house. But if you want a new tractor, eat, work, and socialize in a public building, then you have to play by the rules.

 

[Sysop]

Introducing our Tier IV "mCRD Technology" | Mahindra

If Mahindra can do it, simply and relatively cheaply

WOW you must be rich! :shocked:

Quoting the link:
"direct result of a $30 million dollar investment "

Nothing about $30M says cheap to me!

 

[KevT]

If I'm not mistaken, my 2005 Mahindra has a tier II engine. I think considering the flap about tier IV, my tractor should automatically be worth more. I know I am very thankful I was able to buy this when I did. To get a brand new equivalent tractor today would cost a lot more.

Are you sure about that? In 2002 my JD790 cost me $13000 with FEL and 26 Ttl hp. 20 pto. 2 weeks ago I paid $16000 for my L3901 with FEL 37 Ttl hp 32 pto and tier 4

 

[buickanddeere]

Hasn't that been done? I don't know of any public building that you can smoke in, and many businesses don't allow it on the property. In the city where I worked it was code on all new dwellings to install radon alarms. So with what you are saying, is it is okay to pollute the air if you want to buy an older tractor, just as you can smoke on your property, and breath radon gases if you don't want to know if it is under your house. But if you want a new tractor, eat, work, and socialize in a public building, then you have to play by the rules.

I'm saying the general public is at more risk from radon in their basements and from smoking than from an exceedingly minimal possible concern from nano carbon.

 

[McREBEL]

Are you sure about that? In 2002 my JD790 cost me $13000 with FEL and 26 Ttl hp. 20 pto. 2 weeks ago I paid $16000 for my L3901 with FEL 37 Ttl hp 32 pto and tier 4

I am all for clean air. You paid $16,000 total for a L3901 FEL?

 

[AchingBack]

I am all for clean air. You paid $16,000 total for a L3901 FEL?

? is what I thought. That tractor should be selling for a minimum of 20k.