What kind of welder should I buy

[kenmac]

Years ago when I welded for a living. We used a push pull system (motor in the wire box & a motor in the mig gun) )mig to weld al. It worked very well. I tried once to weld al with my small mig & it didn't work very well. The al wire pushed a hole through the nylon liner that the al wire feeds through.My linclon mig is a L-135 and is about 10 yrs old .I doubt that welding AL.with these small migs has improved very much.

 

[HomeBrew2]

... He could repair just about anything using bronze. ... /quote]

Bronze brazing and silver brazing is really pretty easy. With bronze, I don't even bother to change from a cutting head to a welding head (not doing small stuff), just dial the ox pressure down and be mindful of the heat.
Silver works great for joining stainless to most anything else.
If you want to see a real artist, find someone who gas welds aluminum. My shop teacher in high school could run a bead all day ... all us students could do no more than make melted blobs of crap.

 

[hazmat]

It's been mentioned already, but let me reinforce it. From your posts it sound like you are a complete welding rookie.

TAKE A WELDING CLASS AT THE LOCAL VOCATIONAL SCHOOL. It will afford you the opportunity to try out the various processes GMAW (MIG), GTAW (TIG) SMAW (Stick).

Welding is as much an art as a science. I'm a mechanical engineer - no stranger to reading things and "teaching myself". I learned to weld much, much faster having an experienced instructor vs. on my own w/ a book. Oh and an autodark helmet helps alot.

And now for the disclaimer. Having taken the class and enjoying the "real machines" I haven't ponied up the $3000+ for a Miller Dynasty GTAW / SMAW machine that will weld any metal that is weldable... A stick welder would probably cover 90% of what I need, but If I'm going to buy a tool, I like to buy once. Lucky for me, my local welding shop will rent you one for about $150 for the month plus consumables. So I try to save my welding projects up & do it once a year.

 

[jmcalli]

... He could repair just about anything using bronze. ... /quote]

Bronze brazing and silver brazing is really pretty easy. With bronze, I don't even bother to change from a cutting head to a welding head (not doing small stuff), just dial the ox pressure down and be mindful of the heat.
Silver works great for joining stainless to most anything else.
If you want to see a real artist, find someone who gas welds aluminum. My shop teacher in high school could run a bead all day ... all us students could do no more than make melted blobs of crap.

I didn't mean to emphasize that he could just repair things; I mean he could MAKE things from bronze using an oxyacetylene flame. Bronze does adhere to steel well and is easy to use to repair ferrous items. But it isn't easy to form into entire objects. He manipulated the metal and worked it like a clay sculptor. He had far more skills than just a repair welder.

Yes, silver brazing is easy. So easy in fact that assembly lines are set up to do it automatically. The parts are fluxed, put together with a thin section of silver braze metal at the joint, and they are run through a conveyor that passes them near a torch or through an oven. All mechanized.

I've done some aluminum gas welding myself but I prefer TIG. Gas welding, as I recall (correct me if I'm wrong; it's been 30 years) uses some pretty nasty flux and you have to clean it off afterward. TIG square wave is the easiest way to make nice joints in aluminum, but I'll stick with my sine wave machine for a while.

Speaking of aluminum welding, in 1977 I met a master welder who gave demos for Alcoa. I learned more in 10 minutes watching him weld than I'd learned from the several textbooks I'd read. He was using a Miller sine wave machine (a 330 A/BP) and had a "doorbell" contactor switch taped to his torch. The amperage was pre-set at the machine and the welds he produced were absolutely perfect. He controlled the weld with his torch movement, travel speed, and feed of filler metal.

 

[jmcalli]

Years ago when I welded for a living. We used a push pull system (motor in the wire box & a motor in the mig gun) )mig to weld al. It worked very well. I tried once to weld al with my small mig & it didn't work very well. The al wire pushed a hole through the nylon liner that the al wire feeds through.My linclon mig is a L-135 and is about 10 yrs old .I doubt that welding AL.with these small migs has improved very much.

Yes, I think that's the same principle as the Cobramatic system. Still the way to go, I believe, for production MIG welding aluminum. But the spool guns are supposed to work pretty well now. The Millermatic 251 offers a push/pull system as an option, in additional to the spool gun option. Aluminum really sucks up the amperage so a hefty constant voltage power supply is needed.

 

[wushaw]

The Hobart 187 is getting very good reviews and would certainly be adequate for hobbiest/home use. It costs a lot more to get a bigger MIG.

You should probably consider the new Lincoln 180C as well. It costs a bit more than the Hobart (about $100 more I think) but seems to have some significant advantages based on the buzz in welding forums. I haven't seen either yet.

Both the Hobart 187 and Lincoln 180C are more advanced than any of the currently available similarly priced Millers. I presume Miller will have an update soon to the excellent but relatively outdated 175.

If you want a really neat solution and are willing to pay more, the Miller Passport will give you a very portable (40lbs) MIG with dual voltage capabiltiy and built in gas capacity. Really a nice unit but costs about double what you are looking to spend.

Miller just released the MM180 to replace the MM175.

 

[IslandTractor]

Miller just released the MM180 to replace the MM175.

Doesn't seem to have hit the stores or internet welding sites yet.

 

[jmcalli]

Doesn't seem to have hit the stores or internet welding sites yet.

It's $809.20 at this site. MIG Welders

 

[IslandTractor]

It's $809.20 at this site. MIG Welders

Interesting. That is about $75 more than the Lincoln 180C which has been out a month or so already. The Miller 180 isn't even on Miller's own website yet (they still have the 175 listed) so maybe these early production units are going for a premium. I don't see what the advantage of the Blue 180 is over the red one. The Lincoln has some advantages over the otherwise very nice H187.

 

[Ifixcars]

With 750 to spend, I would get a set of OA torches, and a 250 amp stick welder. I think if you shopped wisely you would have a few bucks left for some safety equipment like a helmet and some gloves. I would think you would want a torch for cutting, heating and bending. For 1/8" and up, a stick welder would do nicely. There is a little steeper learning curve for stick over mig, but with some practice, and maybe a class or 2 you will be fine. It's not all that much harder than mig, and for the money, you get good value. Once you learn the basics, you will get better quickly.

 

[EdK]

I didn't notice that used had been mentioned but a lot of pro welders and shops are converting to inverter welders and spinning off their pro-grade transformer machines and there are always people getting out of the business. That's how I got my "beginner" set up on a budget like yours:

- Lincoln 250 Idealarc AC/DC with power factor caps (a bruiser for sure)
- 2 sets of stinger cables for stick (long/short)
- 2 air cooled TIG torches (one new-in-box)
- 1 water cooled TIG torch
- foot pedal
- gas regulator
- several large gas bottles (argon, argon/CO2 mix, etc)
- lots and lots of different size and type consumables
- A couple of non-darkening helmets, a vise, some vise-grips and other accessories

All this ran me $800 and certainly got me off to a good start. Sure, I might like an inverter MIG or other machine down the road but I think a budding tractor attachment welder could do a lot worse than cutting his teeth on a stick machine that has some added versatility built-in (albeit nothing state of the art).

 

[thingy]

Yeah,I agree,you need some education. You are going into this like you are buying a john boat,,,its not that simple. You should take a welding class somewheres if you ain't got somebody who knows how to help you,,,,,you get all this equipment and you still ain't going to know what to do with it,,its not like buying a pneumatic nail gun.
And for the money you want to spend,you ain't gave yourself alotta options.
Welding is not like sawing a few boards and building a doghouse.
If you got the electrical connections to work it,I would get a a.c./d.c. transformer welding machine,,,not a buzz box,[which is a.c.] but a.c./d.c.,,I would try and get one that will put out about 180-200 amps,and the bigger the duty cycle the better,,,say 60 percent at 100 amps or something,,,more is better,,lincoln,hobart,miller,,,if you can get a good one for that price,than get you some 6010 rods,about 3/32 dia,,and some steel and have at it,,you'll soon see why I said it ain't like buying a nailer,,,,,,,mig machines for a beginner is not the way to go,,to many moving parts,,gas,,meters,,,etc,,,,
You'll be able to weld steel in about any thickness,,[once you learn something],,the part when you said you didn't care how the weld looked as long as she was strong,,tells me everything,,you need to put yourself on a steep learning curve,,even if alls you want to do is make a coat rack,,,thingy

 

[swines]

"...a lot of pro welders and shops are converting to inverter welders..."

Absolutely - that's why the last 3 welders I've purchased have been inverters, and my previous comment on how much more efficient they are than transformer based welders.

Also, as stated previously, if you want to do aluminum with a MIG, then a spool gun is the real answer. If you want to try it with your regular MIG gun (I have done aluminum with a standard gun - but, it's not as easy as a spool gun), then purchase another liner to use specifically for aluminum. If you don't, then the copper/steel wire dust inside the MIG liner that you've used for steel welding will contaminate the aluminum wire & you'll get really bad welds. The price of the extra liner is C*H*E*A*P compared to redoing the welds (been there, own the tee shirt).

Also, get a stainless steel brush to use only with aluminum. Brush the weld zone vigorously just prior to welding and then wipe off the area with acetone. You need the weld zone super clean for aluminum MIG work.

 

[EdK]

"...a lot of pro welders and shops are converting to inverter welders..."

Absolutely - that's why the last 3 welders I've purchased have been inverters, and my previous comment on how much more efficient they are than transformer based welders.

Fair enough, but the original poster is talking hobby welding. Let's be honest here that the efficiency factor is a moot point in this application. He's not going to burn enough rod to notice any big difference in his electric bill.

I'll also be honest enough as well to admit the poor 30-35% duty cycle of the Maxstar 150 at the (still modest) rated outputs you mentioned probably won't bother him either

 

[swines]

Fair enough, but the original poster is talking hobby welding. Let's be honest here that the efficiency factor is a moot point in this application. He's not going to burn enough rod to notice any big difference in his electric bill.

I'll also be honest enough as well to admit the poor 30-35% duty cycle of the Maxstar 150 at the (still modest) rated outputs you mentioned probably won't bother him either

Has nothing to do with the electric bill. It's the size of the welder. My TIG weighs 45 pounds - compare that with an equal output transformer-based Synchro Wave = 200 lbs. The Miller or Thermal Arc inverters with the same output are far more versatile and take up much less shop space. My TIG sits on top of the MIG for example - I don't have to find more floor space for another welder.

The MaxStarr 140 and welding leads sit in a hard case on a cabinet shelf - not something you'd do with often cited Lincoln AC/DC 225 ("Tombstone") at approximately 120 pounds. The Lincoln 225 puts out 125 Amps (dc) which is less output than the Miller Maxstarr in a package that weighs nearly 10x more than the inverter welder - and is easily 3 times the physical size. The Lincoln 225 also has a duty cycle of 20% - so if the Tombstone (or Miller Thunderbolt) welders are the point of comparison for a good welder - then you need to readjust your paradigm.

Let's talk about the reality of the welding duty cycle. I read so many posts talking about "duty cycle." A 30% duty cycle is 3 minutes of continuous welding in a 10 minute time period. I'm not sure how many people actually make continuous welds that take over 3 minutes. I know I don't - but, then I'm not building suspension bridges or aircraft carriers.

Generally for small welding tasks, by the time you setup for the next weld, or reposition the piece, or move to another position - the welder has cooled down and is ready for another weld. So to me, duty cycle is really a moot point - I've never welded past the duty cycle and had the welder shut down with any of my welding equipment.

Also, with really long weld beads, you have to plan the heat-affected zone. You can't do a continuous bead without risking the pieces warping or pulling. So, you end up working opposite sides of the material or putting in short beads to hold the pieces in position and letting the work cool a bit before the finishing weld bead. All of this reduces the duty cycle requirements - the exact reason that the Lincoln 225 with only a 20% duty cycle works for so many people.

 

[EdK]

Has nothing to do with the electric bill.

Then why does Miller spend so much time and energy touting the advantages and reporting on case studies/success stories?

Miller - Education - Reducing Weld Costs

... and I admitted the Maxstar duty cycle was a non-issue for the original poster. Still, why would Miller put this right up front in their primary "Quick Specs" if it were totally irrelevant?

Maxstar® 150 S

Actually the Maxstar duty cycle is not only as good or better than the Thunderbolt 225 but I would prefer it overall if comparing each machine new. In my original post I was merely suggesting that a used Miller Dialarc or Lincoln Idealarc class machine (read "beast") including accessories (read torches, regulators, gas bottles) in the $750 price range represents a good value and is but one option for a suitable starter machine. I have no reservations buying this type of machine used (provided you're looking at a decent specimen coming out of a reasonable environment). I would probably only buy an inverter machine new with warranty.

 

[m7040]

I have been purchasing used construction equipment from my companies construction sites when demobilizing. So far I have 400 amp miller trailer mounted welder with Deutch diesel engine with a lot of hours on it. But for 1500 dollars it was a good deal. Also have torches hoses regulators chainfalls job boxes clamps and many other items for very little money. If you have a large construction job going on near you go talk to them about when they demobilize.

 

[Casey1]

Has nothing to do with the electric bill. It's the size of the welder. My TIG weighs 45 pounds - compare that with an equal output transformer-based Synchro Wave = 200 lbs. The Miller or Thermal Arc inverters with the same output are far more versatile and take up much less shop space. My TIG sits on top of the MIG for example - I don't have to find more floor space for another welder.

The MaxStarr 140 and welding leads sit in a hard case on a cabinet shelf - not something you'd do with often cited Lincoln AC/DC 225 ("Tombstone") at approximately 120 pounds. The Lincoln 225 puts out 125 Amps (dc) which is less output than the Miller Maxstarr in a package that weighs nearly 10x more than the inverter welder - and is easily 3 times the physical size. The Lincoln 225 also has a duty cycle of 20% - so if the Tombstone (or Miller Thunderbolt) welders are the point of comparison for a good welder - then you need to readjust your paradigm.

Let's talk about the reality of the welding duty cycle. I read so many posts talking about "duty cycle." A 30% duty cycle is 3 minutes of continuous welding in a 10 minute time period. I'm not sure how many people actually make continuous welds that take over 3 minutes. I know I don't - but, then I'm not building suspension bridges or aircraft carriers.

Generally for small welding tasks, by the time you setup for the next weld, or reposition the piece, or move to another position - the welder has cooled down and is ready for another weld. So to me, duty cycle is really a moot point - I've never welded past the duty cycle and had the welder shut down with any of my welding equipment.

Also, with really long weld beads, you have to plan the heat-affected zone. You can't do a continuous bead without risking the pieces warping or pulling. So, you end up working opposite sides of the material or putting in short beads to hold the pieces in position and letting the work cool a bit before the finishing weld bead. All of this reduces the duty cycle requirements - the exact reason that the Lincoln 225 with only a 20% duty cycle works for so many people.

Also the Maxstar 150s will only require 30 amp input (like a dryer) vs 50 amp circuit for the "tombstone". Most would have to run a new line to accommodate the 50 amp instead of the easier task of converting a dryer outlet.