What kind of welder should I buy

[Sully2]

I have a Hobart 225 amp AC stick welder and for all my steel projects this works just fine. Something to keep in mind is that a stick welder will do fine outside when it is blowing and a Mig or Tig just won't keep the gas shield in a wind. If you weld with anything inside you will need a way to get the weld smoke out of the area, it smells bad and is bad for your lungs. So, inside with a fan for any kind of machine or outside for stick either AC or AC/DC.
Suggest you take a welding course before you buy with the express purpose of trying/learning on all 3 basic welding machines, MIG TIG and STICK...then make a decision.

good luck

If "flux cored wire" is used with the wire fed maching..outside welding is no problem. If you can weld it..inside; outside..even upside down..with a stick welder...you can do the same with the appropiate sized wire fed machine.

And its STILL a lot easier to do with a wire fed machine!

 

[gordon21]

Things are starting to come together.

I looked at at a Hobart model 187 MIG welder today. It replaces the 180 by having a new 7 position voltage switch. $650 for the welder w/cart and another $100 for a good helmet and a couple rolls of wire. This comes in almost exactly on the menatl budget I created. Bumping up to 200+ amps seems to raise the price considerably.

Can I run this off from a 5500 watt generator for remote welding? The generator has a 40 amp breaker on the 240 output. Are there any issues with using generator power versus power from a fully grounded source like the utility company. I noticed the plug on the Hobart had only 3 pins. Why no 4th pin? I though all modern 240 installations had to have 4 pins now. I see stove and dryer plugs with the 4th pin in the elctrical section of stores.

 

[MadReferee]

Can I run this off from a 5500 watt generator for remote welding? The generator has a 40 amp breaker on the 240 output. Are there any issues with using generator power versus power from a fully grounded source like the utility company. I noticed the plug on the Hobart had only 3 pins. Why no 4th pin? I though all modern 240 installations had to have 4 pins now. I see stove and dryer plugs with the 4th pin in the elctrical section of stores.

It should run just fine from the generator. The welder should have a 3-prong NEMA 6-50P plug on it and your recepticle will have to be a NEMA 6-50R. Your instruction manual should have wiring instructions for the recepticle. If not it's 2 hot legs plus ground.

 

[shaley]

4 pins are only required on 220v appliances that have a 110v outlet. A welder may not even be considered an appliance under NEC I'd have to check.

 

[jmcalli]

The term AC welding is often misunderstood. It is not using alternating current. It is in fact direct current welding with the electrode and surface changing polarity (DC - electrode negative / DC - electrode positive) = DCEN / DCEP - this IS NOT AC current being used for welding.

Not to pick a fight here, but how would you define "AC?" Wouldn't it be exactly what you describe - the electrode and surface changing polarity? I'm not sure what other type of AC exists.

In fact, AC welding does use an alternating current. In contrast to DC, AC "alternates," or changes polarity, or reverses the direction of electron flow, nominally 60 times a second.

Welding DC transformer/rectifier power supplies use diodes to block half of the alternating cycle and "rectify" the AC waveform. Thus, either positive or negative direct current flows. The electrode and the work keep the same polarity and the electrons flow in one direction only.

 

[fabrej]

Gordon21,

I welded all of the bucket hitch. I just didn't paint the T handle.

Attached is another one of my mini projects that I welded with the simple Hobart 140.

 

[jmcalli]

4 pins are only required on 220v appliances that have a 110v outlet. A welder may not even be considered an appliance under NEC I'd have to check.

My antique Dialarc HF has a 220V primary power supply that uses a 3-wire cable (2 hots and a ground). It has a built-in 110V accessory outlet on the front panel that I plug my water cooler into. Granted, it's kind of old but I don't think it predates NEC.

 

[twigpig]

I am not an electrician. But I played one when I built my house. From what I learned when I wired my house 220 appliances need a neutral now for the functions that only use 110. In the past those functions (timers and lights) used so little electricity that they just used the ground as the neutral. While the ground and the neutral are bonded in the main panel they have different functions. Often when you install a new stove it has an option of bonding the neutral to the ground at the appliance for older houses without the neutral wire from the panel. Those ground wires are pretty substantial so there was little worry of heat build up. I am not commenting on how safe it is, those NEC regs are made for a reason, but it is done. If you aren't using 110 in the appliance/welder you really don't need the neutral. All of the current for 220 is going back on the paired hot wires. I hope I didn't confuse you. If I'm wrong I hope I get corrected quickly. When I say 110 I mean 110/120 and the same goes for 220 for 220/240. Along with reading a lot of books the guys over on the electrical forum of "The Garden Web" helped me understand enough to wire two 200 amp main panels with generator lockouts and two sub-panels and pass very diligent electrical inspectors. I like diligent inspectors, they help keep my family safe.
I am also getting interested in welders. I was reading some of those boards mentioned above and it sounded like people are liking the new Lincoln 180 MIG. Many are anticipating the new Miller 180 MIG. I can't justify getting one yet. Those Miller 210s seem to hold their value as much as a tractor.

 

[AlanB]

Gordon, sounds like you have hit on something that suits you. I personally would go Miller or Lincoln but the Hobarts are fine machines as well (and owned by Miller) but I think you will get years and years of satisfaction out of that machine.

Does it come set up as a true Mig? (Gas Valve installed) or is it set for Flux core then you have to add a "kit" of some kind? I personally much prefer mig over Flux core, but again, it is preference thing.

You need to also visit your local gas supplier if you plan on running Mig and see how they handle the bottles (Lease, rent, buy) and what the costs will be. I would run the C25 on that smaller machine. That can run a bit extra onto the tab, but in my opinion, particularly while trying to learn blind, it will be much easier and clearer to see what you are doing, then when you have a good feel, spool up the flux core and try that.

Good luck, it is very satisfying to be able to do those projects that need welding around the house.

 

[gordon21]

The list is getting more refined. How does this sound for an initial purchase? You guys let me know what I am missing. Nothing is definite yet.

Hobart 187 MIG welder package that comes with cart and gas valve.
1-8" spool of aluminum wire
1-8" spool of solid wire
1-8" spool of flux core wire
1-small tank of C25
1-small tank of pure argon for the aluminum
extra tips
Self darkening helmet
Couple of triangle shaped magnet gizmos to hold steel pieces
Large chunk of plate steel to use as a work surface


I read a 200 page welding basics book last night. It mentions that a good beginner work table should be a large chunk of old plate steel. Nowhere in the book does it mention how and where to ground the piece you are working on. Does the work table itself have to be grounded? If so, how and where?
Needless to say I am concerned about 30-180 amps running around and me not having everything safe. Would a person get shocked if they touched the work table while welding? I am assuming the work piece will be clamped to the table to keep it from moving.

What effect does the welding have on a tractor that is insulated from the ground by it's tires. Do you just hook the ground cable to it and let-er-rip? Any special precautions to protect the tractor's electronics or diesel?

 

[jmcalli]

The list is getting more refined. ?

Yeah, I joined ;-).

How does this sound for an initial purchase? You guys let me know what I am missing. Nothing is definite yet.

Hobart 187 MIG welder package that comes with cart and gas valve.
1-8" spool of aluminum wire
1-8" spool of solid wire
1-8" spool of flux core wire
1-small tank of C25
1-small tank of pure argon for the aluminum
extra tips
Self darkening helmet
Couple of triangle shaped magnet gizmos to hold steel pieces
Large chunk of plate steel to use as a work surface ?

Sounds like a good setup for light welding. And I think you will be disappointed with its aluminum welding capability. Personally, I'd buy a bigger welder. A Millermatic 210 at least. I've had a Millermatic 251 for two weeks and I don't know how I lived this long without it. I'm too old to chip slag anymore. I dearly love that machine.

I read a 200 page welding basics book last night. It mentions that a good beginner work table should be a large chunk of old plate steel. Nowhere in the book does it mention how and where to ground the piece you are working on. Does the work table itself have to be grounded? If so, how and where?
Needless to say I am concerned about 30-180 amps running around and me not having everything safe. Would a person get shocked if they touched the work table while welding? I am assuming the work piece will be clamped to the table to keep it from moving. ?

You wouldn't get shocked unless you had the ground clamp attached to your foot or something. Attach the ground to the table and make sure the work is sitting firmly on the table and is making good electrical contact (clean metal to metal, no painted surfaces between work and ground, etc.). The work doesn't necessarly have to be clamped to the table. If the work piece is big enough, attach the ground directly to the work.

What effect does the welding have on a tractor that is insulated from the ground by it's tires. Do you just hook the ground cable to it and let-er-rip? Any special precautions to protect the tractor's electronics or diesel?

I'd put the work clamp as close as possible to the weld area. Find an area that is clean metal so there's good electrical contact. The current is traveling between the electrode and the ground. If there is a bearing (there is a small contact area inside a ball bearing) somewhere in that loop, the weld current will be running through it, and that would be potentially bad for the bearing. If there is a computer or any microprocessors on the tractor, they might get fried. I'd probably disconnect the tractor's battery. Other than that, normal precautions apply. The Tires on the tractor don't mean anything to the weld current. It's not trying to go to the "ground" under the tractor; it's traveling from the weld electrode to the ground clamp.

 

[AlanB]

Hi, I know the literature, and probably folks on here will tell you that machine will do aluminum (and it will) but personally, I would not spend the money on that part of the setup, I think you will find the results less then satisfactory (and somewhat aggravating) You can also weld aluminum with an oxy / a torch set up, it just is not that practical.

The way I try and explain it too folks is that you are trying to push a spaghetti noodle through a straw and hitting it into a piece of metal at the end of the straw. (that is welding with steel) Now go ahead and cook that spaghetti noodle (Aluminum) and do the same. You will quickly learn the definition of "birds nest" with regards to a Mig if that is the route you choose.

For me, I would buy a big bottle of C25 (or rent or lease or whatever your gas supplier does) My experience that most of the cost of the gas is in the filling, handling etc. The price difference between a refill of a big bottle vs a small bottle has been negligible. (your gas company may very well be different)

Anyway, sounds like a good plan, did not notice antispatter spray or dip, but you need a can of that.

Oh, and ground as close as possible to where you are working, the post above gave some very relevant tips.

 

[PBinWA]

Lewis,

Since you are a "reader" here are some good books:

Welding Essentials, W. Galvery & F. Marlow ISBN 0-8311-3151-9
Welding Fabrication & Repair, F. Marlow ISBN 0-8311-3155-1

You can get some really good pamphlets mailed to you for free from Lincoln here:

Literature Request | Lincoln Electric

"Stainless Steels - Properties, How to Weld, Where to Use"
"GMAW Welding Guide"
"Aluminum MIG Welding Guidebook"

There are some others there too.

If you can't take a class, I recommend the videos/DVD's from these guys:

Instructional Welding Videos

Good Luck

PB

 

[IslandTractor]

The list is getting more refined. How does this sound for an initial purchase? You guys let me know what I am missing. Nothing is definite yet.

Hobart 187 MIG welder package that comes with cart and gas valve.

The Hobart 187 is getting very good reviews and would certainly be adequate for hobbiest/home use. It costs a lot more to get a bigger MIG.

You should probably consider the new Lincoln 180C as well. It costs a bit more than the Hobart (about $100 more I think) but seems to have some significant advantages based on the buzz in welding forums. I haven't seen either yet.

Both the Hobart 187 and Lincoln 180C are more advanced than any of the currently available similarly priced Millers. I presume Miller will have an update soon to the excellent but relatively outdated 175.

If you want a really neat solution and are willing to pay more, the Miller Passport will give you a very portable (40lbs) MIG with dual voltage capabiltiy and built in gas capacity. Really a nice unit but costs about double what you are looking to spend.

 

[Sully2]

Gordon21,

I welded all of the bucket hitch. I just didn't paint the T handle.

Attached is another one of my mini projects that I welded with the simple Hobart 140.

Let's be getting that ammo box painted!...lol....*wink*!

 

[Sully2]

The list is getting more refined. How does this sound for an initial purchase? You guys let me know what I am missing. Nothing is definite yet.

Hobart 187 MIG welder package that comes with cart and gas valve.
1-8" spool of aluminum wire
1-8" spool of solid wire
1-8" spool of flux core wire
1-small tank of C25
1-small tank of pure argon for the aluminum
extra tips
Self darkening helmet
Couple of triangle shaped magnet gizmos to hold steel pieces
Large chunk of plate steel to use as a work surface

Gordon: IMHO..."INITIALLY" I wouldnt spend the $$ for the "aluminum" part of the list...thats YET. Not the wire..not the gas..etc. It MAY BE a long time before you get the hang of using the machine...before you start working with AL.

Toss in some anti splatter "cream"...its cheap..and it works to get and keep tips / nozzles good and clean.

I bought a Jackson AD helmut..wasnt cheap...but I love the thing.
The triangle magnets..I get from HB...when they are onsale..3 different sizes.

Other than that..Id say go for it!

 

[jmcalli]

Don't overlook the old transformer/rectifier power supplies if money is the major issue and if you have the space. I got along fine for about 30 years with an oxyacetylene setup and a Miller Thunderbolt (AC only) with 30 feet of #2 welding leads.

I'm getting more interested in metalwork now that I have some spare time, and I want to have aluminum and stainless capability so I recently got an old used Miller Dialarc HF for TIG and a new Miller 251 for MIG. The Dialarc HF was a only a couple of hundred dollars and it weighs 500 pounds but it is one sweet running power supply. I think it was only used a few times for stick welding because the factory caplugs were still on the gas and water solenoids. Apparently the previous owner never even used its TIG function. These things are basically bulletproof. If something does break they're easy to repair and Miller still has parts for them. There are lots of old welders sitting around that are in this category.

The main thing with welding is to learn to use what you've got, whatever it may be. You can learn more in a couple of hours hanging around in a vocational school welding class than you can learn in dozens of hours reading books. When you see it done you get an idea of what is possible and practical. You will get a "feel" for it. Kind of "one with the flow" of the electrons (little joke ;-) ).

For instance, I once saw a brazing demonstration by an expert. All he had was an oxyacetylene rig and some bronze rod and a can of flux. But he was the consummate artist. He could repair just about anything using bronze. He had so much experience that he could sense the temperature of the metal and could predict its behavior. If it was steel, brass, or cast iron he could fix it or make a joint with brazing rod. His main trade was making bronze jewelery and pieces of art. Watching him work was an education in itself.

 

[Mahana79]

I could care less about the final bead appearance. I am looking for functionality, not looks.
a good functional bead will look good. but a good looking bead may not be functional



Here goes the questions:

Electric or gas? And what's the basic difference in the results they give
electric is just that runs off electricity, the other i think your talking about is engine driven. you have a diesel or gasoline engine driving a generator to make the electricty to weld with.
MIG, TIG, various gases, etc
MIG stand for Metal Inert Gas it is also know as GMAW or Gas Metal Arc Welding, TIG is Tungsten Inert Gas or GTAW Gas Tungsten Arc Welding
Can one welder do steel AND aluminum?
yes a good wire feed machine can do both. You will need the appropriate gas and regulator and the appropriate filler metal.
Which is safer to use?
any can be dangerous all can me safe
Which is easier to use?
i personally think that MIG (wire welding with sheilding gas) is by far the easiest.
How do you keep from getting electrocuted when electic welding?
dont stand in water
What is wire feed welding?
Wire feed welding is GMAW it is where the filler metal is in the form of a spool of wire and as you weld it constantly feeds more filler metal out.
Suggested rods?
6010 or 6011 and 7018 will do just about any mild steeel welding you would need to do with SMAW (Sheilded Metal Arc Welding)
Portability? Electric welders obviously need power close by. 120 or 240 volt?
The engine/generator type are much more portabel but are also much more expensive. i would go with a 240 machine with the thickness of metals you are talking about.


It comes with a gas conversion kit. How do you convert an electic welder to gas?
What they are talking about is the Sheilding gas regulator and conversion to take a wire feed welder and turn it into a true GMAW

Answers sorry i guess I should read all 4 pages before making my reply.

 

[MadReferee]

Forget about doing aluminum with that welder unless you have a spoolgun and the spoolgun controller. The additional cost will be at least what the welder is. The aluminum wire is so soft that it will not flow well, if at all, thru the normal MIG gun. As a minimum you will need a seperate liner for the gun if you still plan on using AL and even then there is no guarantee that you will be able to feed the wire on a consistent basis. Welding AL also takes plenty of practice and with that small of a welder all you will be able to do is 11 gauge sheet or less. So skip the AL and the pure argon tank. Put the money toward a good 4" or 4.5" grinder and some wheels.

Stay with flux core or solid wire with C25. When you get real good at steel then either get a spoolgun/controller or a TIG for the aluminum.

 

[shaley]

I second what Madref just said. Save the extra for a band saw. You do have one, right? A hack saw will wear you out cutting all that steel?