VERY expensive beet juice!

/ VERY expensive beet juice! #241  
this would have been a few years ago, at a county maintenance facility where they park their fleet service tractors. The GC I work for routinely pics up DRA/WRA and pond maintenance contracts from the city and county. it's common that some of the ponds have fish in tem ( bream usually ).. there was a bulk tank rupture that caused the leak, it spilled into a collection weir and then overran a bank and into t he pond. kill happened within 24 hours. I don't know the 'brand' it was.. but was a beet juice product according to the maint foreman at the site. I was there and supervising the job. incedentally.. the spill was not caused by our co.. I never did hear what 'caused' the spill.. whether it was vandalism.. tank rupture... careless employee.. etc. I just know it stunk the next day as dead fish were everywhere. YUCK!

soundguy
Timeline is critical on this, because Rimguard(beet juice) has been out only a relatively short time.

I am intersested in any info on this product........don't get me wrong.

I purchased it as non-toxic to fish and wildlife............I want accurate info and nothing more.

And I also want to pass along this same info to others who also care about wildlife and/or pets/humans.
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice! #242  
ALOT of juice went into a not very big pond. I doubt 20g out of a tire is going to have a huge environmental impact unless that 20g popped right into a 50 gallon in ground koi pond or something... :)

incedental spills are incedental spills. bulk tank ruptures.. well... different playing field.

sorry I don't have brand names and hard quantities to give you. The spill cleanup wasn't part of my contract...

soundguy
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice! #243  
ALOT of juice went into a not very big pond. I doubt 20g out of a tire is going to have a huge environmental impact unless that 20g popped right into a 50 gallon in ground koi pond or something... :)

incedental spills are incedental spills. bulk tank ruptures.. well... different playing field.

sorry I don't have brand names and hard quantities to give you. The spill cleanup wasn't part of my contract...

soundguy
Sure wish I could have gotten more info on this, because it sounds like the complaints I heard about the 'Old Rim Guard Product".

And yes, I will agree that 'too much' of a 'good thing' can be harmful. Salt can be used in the water with fish to treat certain ailments, but one must consider the fact that it will kill most vegetation at the same time. Thus stopping oxygen production that is crucial to fish. And not to mention the fact that the same plants 'shade' the water which retards algae growth.
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice! #244  
When cited by several sources..............I wouldn't call it a 'gross exageration'!

You are welcome to look at the links provided, and look up other links also.........but what you'll find is that methanol is dangerous.

I could give scenarios regarding living creatures, but, it might be best if you ponder the situation.

Methanol is the "active" ingredient in WWF. Usually about 20-30% methanol, a little blue or orange dye and the rest water. How toxic can it be? You can walk into Wally World or Home Despot and purchase 100 gallons of the stuff if you like. As noted, it is not for oral consumption but there is hardly anything else you could do with it, within reason, that would cause injury to person, fauna or flora. We spray millions of gallons all over our highways every year. Keep in mind that even tractor tire leaks usually drop only 5-10 gallons and at most about 50 gallons of 20-30% methanol that leaks out of a hole over hours. Rapidly biodegrated in soil. Harmful to fish only in very high concentrations. Indeed, humans are the most susceptible of mammals and how many folks are hospitalized after exposure to WWF?

The national fire protection association (NFPA) rating for health effects of methanol is level 1 which equates to "may be irritating" (same rating as Rush Limbaugh). As stated earlier, you would have to take a bath in pure methanol to absorb enough to harm you. Most of the MSDS info on methanol warnings relate to large industrial exposures especially inhalation in enclosed spaces. These are simply not realistic concerns for someone who is talking about getting a barrel of methanol, diluting it with water and pumping it into tractor tires. If it is safe enough for Granny to use as WWF, I'd say it is safe enough to use as ballast in a tractor tire.
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice! #245  
Methanol is the "active" ingredient in WWF. Usually about 20-30% methanol, a little blue or orange dye and the rest water. How toxic can it be? You can walk into Wally World or Home Despot and purchase 100 gallons of the stuff if you like. As noted, it is not for oral consumption but there is hardly anything else you could do with it, within reason, that would cause injury to person, fauna or flora. We spray millions of gallons all over our highways every year. Keep in mind that even tractor tire leaks usually drop only 5-10 gallons and at most about 50 gallons of 20-30% methanol that leaks out of a hole over hours. Rapidly biodegrated in soil. Harmful to fish only in very high concentrations. Indeed, humans are the most susceptible of mammals and how many folks are hospitalized after exposure to WWF?

The national fire protection association (NFPA) rating for health effects of methanol is level 1 which equates to "may be irritating" (same rating as Rush Limbaugh). As stated earlier, you would have to take a bath in pure methanol to absorb enough to harm you. Most of the MSDS info on methanol warnings relate to large industrial exposures especially inhalation in enclosed spaces. These are simply not realistic concerns for someone who is talking about getting a barrel of methanol, diluting it with water and pumping it into tractor tires. If it is safe enough for Granny to use as WWF, I'd say it is safe enough to use as ballast in a tractor tire.
This is the only part of your post that I saw...........no sense in reding any more.

Read the attached links please..........:confused::confused::confused:


Methanol Poisoning Overview


Methanol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Methanol poisoning: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia


http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-met...www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0003250/

Please pay careful attention to the parts that say 'readily absorbed..............that means if your child/grandchild stands in the leaked area.............it can go into their bloodstream very fast, and cause blindness or death. Same with your pets.:thumbdown::thumbdown:
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice! #246  
This is the only part of your post that I saw...........no sense in reding any more.

Read the attached links please..........:confused::confused::confused:

Why did you stop reading? If you had continued you would have seen that I read the whole MSDS for methanol and checked out the NFPA rating as well. Those are authoritative statements. What sort of baloney are you selling?

Do you keep WWF in a hazardous materials cage in your household? Get a life.
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice! #247  
Why did you stop reading? If you had continued you would have seen that I read the whole MSDS for methanol and checked out the NFPA rating as well. Those are authoritative statements. What sort of baloney are you selling?

Do you keep WWF in a hazardous materials cage in your household? Get a life.
no sir you didn't

I updated my last post..............read it please.
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice! #248  
Sure wish I could have gotten more info on this, because it sounds like the complaints I heard about the 'Old Rim Guard Product".

And yes, I will agree that 'too much' of a 'good thing' can be harmful. Salt can be used in the water with fish to treat certain ailments, but one must consider the fact that it will kill most vegetation at the same time. Thus stopping oxygen production that is crucial to fish. And not to mention the fact that the same plants 'shade' the water which retards algae growth.

this was for sure a few years ago, perhaps this was the old rim guard material you speak of. it was always too much money for me, and at the gc i work for, we water loaded our tires and added prop glycol... what complaints did you hear about the old stuff?

soundguy
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice! #249  
this was for sure a few years ago, perhaps this was the old rim guard material you speak of. it was always too much money for me, and at the gc i work for, we water loaded our tires and added prop glycol... what complaints did you hear about the old stuff?

soundguy

Mainly that it wasn't what it was cracked up to be...........I read reviews of rusted rims, possible toxicity. This was shortly after I purchased my Massey, and I was investigating fluids for my tires.

I have a small tractor, and I needed the most weight(IMO), with the least amount of downsides, and easily repairable.
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice! #250  
have you thought about wheel, frame or axle weights? no leaks.. :)

you can cast your own weights out of concrete and populate them all over the tractor. betweent he fenders and tires is a good un used spot on many tractors, front bumper, bracket on the wheel center.. , frame huggers / hangers.. possibilities are only limited by tractor chassie dimensions and physical space.

good luck with your search!

soundguy

soundguy
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice! #251  
This is the only part of your post that I saw...........no sense in reding any more.

Read the attached links please..........:confused::confused::confused:


Methanol Poisoning Overview


Methanol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Methanol poisoning: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia


wiseGEEK: clear answers for common questions

Please pay careful attention to the parts that say 'readily absorbed..............that means if your child/grandchild stands in the leaked area.............it can go into their bloodstream very fast, and cause blindness or death. Same with your pets.:thumbdown::thumbdown:

OK, I read the first three. I have no idea who "wisegeeks" are and don't consider them authoritative so I did not read that one.

Please tell me you are kidding with this hysteria about methanol. I very clearly excluded drinking the stuff when I stated it was not dangerous. Everyone understands that methanol is a poison when consumed orally. I stated that twice but you apparently did not take note. Virtually all of the sources you quote are discussing oral ingestion of methanol. Not a realistic concern when using methanol or WWF as ballast.

How is a child going to wade into a pool of methanol/water mix. Do you think it forms pools when it spills? Try a little experiment: take a gallon of WWF and pour it in your yard. How deep is the pool? Do you seriously think Walmart, Home Depot and your local gas station would be selling WWF if little children were going blind or dying from transcutaneous exposures?

Read the rest of my earlier post that you claim not to have bothered reading. The National Fire Protection Association rates methanol as an "irritant". There are five grades they give out. Zero to Five. Zero is water and milk, intended for oral consumption. Methanol is a One. Irritant. Nothing more dangerous than a skin irritation from repeated exposure unless 1) orally consumed, 2) bathed in, or 3) inhaled in closed space in high concentration as in an industrial exposure. None of these are realistic risks for someone who is installing methanol into tires for ballast outdoors and none are realistic risks in the event of a leak from a filled tire.

Please learn to read MSDS a little more realistically and stop exaggerating the risk of methanol, especially as a 20-30% solution as used in tire ballast. Do you have the same attitude towards diesel fuel? That can be pretty bad when ingested orally too you know. Better run your tractor on beet juice instead.
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice! #253  
Don87 said:
Methanol is toxic, and can be readily absorbed through the skin.

That is the point I was making.

Give it up. In the concentrations used with tractor ballast there is virtually zero risk unless you drink it or use it to fill a hot tub for a long soak. Before you reiterate your exaggerated warning, please investigate whether OSHA or the CDC have recorded even a single episode in the past fifty years of a person or animal harmed by contact with WWF or dilute methanol. This is a non problem.
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice!
  • Thread Starter
#254  
Liquid ballast sure stirs up passions!

While I should have waited to see how the tractor would perform with the cast iron rims it came with, I have bitten the bullet and gone with WWF. I was bake to source it in bulk for not a horrible price. I might be more inclined for the extra weight of beet juice if I didn't have cast iron rims.
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice! #255  
wait till you see 4wd, gear/hst tranny, or welder discussions.

this is nothing.

I got told last night I had no business owning a welder, or using one, had questionable comments made about my education and all other sorts of personal insults made against me by a member here.. all because of the brand of welder I bought.. that he doesn't like.. but won't tell you why he doesn't like them if you ask him.. :) oh.. and because I bought that brand, I made a /wrong/ decision, and was embarrised by it .. ( I'm not.. I love my hobart.. :) )

soundguy
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice! #256  
Give it up. In the concentrations used with tractor ballast there is virtually zero risk unless you drink it or use it to fill a hot tub for a long soak. Before you reiterate your exaggerated warning, please investigate whether OSHA or the CDC have recorded even a single episode in the past fifty years of a person or animal harmed by contact with WWF or dilute methanol. This is a non problem.
Although you responded to the post yourself, you seem to have forgotten the text.



http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...-very-expensive-beet-juice-5.html#post2526060
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice! #257  
Liquid ballast sure stirs up passions!

While I should have waited to see how the tractor would perform with the cast iron rims it came with, I have bitten the bullet and gone with WWF. I was bake to source it in bulk for not a horrible price. I might be more inclined for the extra weight of beet juice if I didn't have cast iron rims.
Yes sir it does.

Some of us have seen the damage first hand that some of these things can cause. Nothing like having your pet die in your arms because it ingested antifreeze.

My garden area is roughly 60 feet by 80 feet, I can just imagine popping a tire with CACL in it, and ruining my garden for several years to come.

I tend to be overly cautious with chemicals of any kind.
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice! #258  
Although you responded to the post yourself, you seem to have forgotten the text.



http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...-very-expensive-beet-juice-5.html#post2526060

What are you talking about now? The linked post says essentially what I have been repeating to you ad nauseum every time you complain about methanol toxicity. What text did I forget?

And where are the case reports of humans or pets being harmed by WWF or methanol/water used as tractor tire ballast? If you are going to persist in making these warnings please show us some data.

I think your recent post describing your pet's death puts this all into perspective. You have had a personal traumatic experience with antifreeze (not methanol) and as a result you have become obsessed with toxicity issues. I'm sorry about your pet but exaggerating toxicity claims isn't going to bring the poor creature back. Ethylene glycol poisoning is a terrible thing and is the driving force for safer antifreeze solutions like propylene glycol. Again, this has nothing to do with methanol containing ballast solutions. Please stop conflating the two.
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice! #259  
What are you talking about now? The linked post says essentially what I have been repeating to you ad nauseum every time you complain about methanol toxicity. What text did I forget?

And where are the case reports of humans or pets being harmed by WWF or methanol/water used as tractor tire ballast? If you are going to persist in making these warnings please show us some data.

I think your recent post describing your pet's death puts this all into perspective. You have had a personal traumatic experience with antifreeze (not methanol) and as a result you have become obsessed with toxicity issues. I'm sorry about your pet but exaggerating toxicity claims isn't going to bring the poor creature back. Ethylene glycol poisoning is a terrible thing and is the driving force for safer antifreeze solutions like propylene glycol. Again, this has nothing to do with methanol containing ballast solutions. Please stop conflating the two.
You still, in your haste, neglected to read post number 49 completely.

Pure methanol was listed in the post. It IS highly toxic, and can be readily absorbed through the skin. Ya ain't gotta drink the stuff to go blind.

I posted the links for methanol poisoning for the benefit of everyone who may decide to work with it.
 
/ VERY expensive beet juice! #260  
Pure methanol was listed in the post. It IS highly toxic, and can be readily absorbed through the skin. Ya ain't gotta drink the stuff to go blind.

I posted the links for methanol poisoning for the benefit of everyone who may decide to work with it.

You know, I am usually the one accused of advocating a "nanny state" but you have outdone me here. I stand corrected: Though I already implied in prior posts that methanol might be dangerous if used in a hot tub, I did not explicitly point out that bathing with methanol in general should be avoided. I am embarrassed as I know it is general knowledge that tractor owners routinely use beet juice and CaCl as well as WWF are as bathing agents by tractor owners, typically just prior to adding the solutions to tires. So I should have been more clear that this would not be a good idea with methanol. I stand corrected.

Let us review how methanol is used in ballast: 1) Purchase a 55 gallon drum of methanol. 2) remove bung cap and put a hose into the drum, 3) use a pump to dispense appropriate amounts into each tire, 4) reseal the drum, 5) fill remaining tire volume with H2O up to approx 75% of tire capacity. (Please see separate MSDS for H2O which may be a risk factor for deaths by drowning during use as ballast).

Now just to be complete, I should also point out that breathing methanol fumes at high concentration is also bad for your health. Therefore, filling of tractor tires with methanol solution should NEVER be done in a closet and in general should be done indoors only if you leave plenty of windows open for ventilation.
 

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