US versus world in quality

[jnjpream]

Yep, crd is correct.. Lowes is an independant company NOT owned by Walmart.

That's what I get for quoting somebody w/o checking the facts.

But still, I'll avoid it as much as HD.

 

[DWCox]

All things being equal, I like to purchase goods manufactured by U.S. companies. But when the quality is not equal I am like so many of you--I simply cannot bring myself to buy an inferior product. Moreover, in principle I also object to subsidizing and therefore promoting the laziness (at whatever level) that made such an inferior product possible.

For many of the very same reasons, the recent bailout of U.S. auto companies will do little to force these corporations to make the type of drastic changes necessary to promote their long term health and survival. It will actually produce a reverse incentive, not unlike so many individuals who adopt a complacent attitude while receiving government welfare at tax-payers' expense. If a nation's industries are to succeed and be truly healthy, they must also be capable of failure.

 

[FullBucket]

I suspect that one of the key driving factors to the decline in quality is Wall street. They have gotten a lot of bad press lately but I think they deserve some more. The relentless pressure to meet higher analyst projected returns encourages management to favour short term outcomes. I used to call this short term smart; long term stupid behaviour. Management is constantly trying to cut costs and quality inevitably suffers. Giving stock/options to management further exacerbates the problem as they can fall prey to protecting stock prices rather than the long term viability of the company.

This isn't new. It's been going on for decades but I think in the last decade we've really started to feel the pain. I suspect that the expectations created by HiTech prior to 2000 flowed into other market sectors as money chased the highest returns that were ultimately unsustainable. So for the second key factor we've got our own greed to thank. We want unsustainable returns from stocks and prices too low to support quality.

We've gone from what nostalgicly seems like the good old days, were we could trust products to get better and companies to grow, to much harder times. Setting expectations too high has lead to our demise.

Bummer so far . Solutions are tough but I hate to throw a lot of mud without some effort to help. Naive thoughts to follow

Somehow I think we need to learn new expectations that support long term health and wealth. Maybe 10 to 15% is the maximum we should expect from the stock market without eventual consequences. Sure would be nice right now . Maybe our media pundits and analysts should add the value they're supposed to.

I know there's a fear of too much legislation but I've wondered what would happen if major appliances (10 years) and consumer electronics (5 years) were forced to warantee their products for a minimum lifetime. Making junk would carry a high cost. Companies would have a standard to fight the cheapest junk wins pressure from retailers. Other product categories could be considered of course - tractors (50 years at least ).

I hate throwing away cameras and printers after a year. I'd rather have a product that cost $20 more but I know will last. It would support the environment - less landfill and consumption of materials. I expect it would initially receive a scared reaction from industry, kinda like gas mileage did with car manufacturers. But long term smart, I hope.

OK enough ranting, think I can get back to sleep now that all our problems are solved

 

[JOHNTHOMAS]

Ah!! The good old days. How we miss them. When a 25" color TV was $500 to $900 and only the wealthy family had them. When my goal in life was to make $100 a week instead of the 60 cents an hour I earned. When a car battery would last 2 years, maybe. When we had to always carry a long screwdriver to cross the solinoid to start the car. Oh Yah I forgot the tires that at 6000 miles was wore out and you better know how to change a tire. Aw yes when cars would last to maybe 40000 miles before you began seriously looking at trading. Even a junk yard wouldn't buy a 100000 mile car if there was one. The radios were also great. Also be sure you had some guys with you to help push it if it wasn't an automatic. Some people could even afford AC when it came out. Panasonic was a piece of cheap junk from Japan. No corrupt educated Policemen or politicians. All races were treated the same. Come on guys. It wasn't perfect. How many of those 60's cars, TV's, Tractors, houses, single pane windows, baseboard heaters, non vented gas stoves, coal burning heat stoves are still in use. Yes, some that were well cared for but most of them are gone. Wore out or disposed of for some thing newer. Most people want the new product and that keeps us working. I'm as nostalgic as most but it wasn't the wonderful world we some times remember. I even bought some Aluminum Christmas trees this year. Hundreds of thousands were made but most of them are in the trash and the few that remain were lost in attics for years. I hate Lowes and buy from them at least weekly. I have to have their stuff to maintain houses that me and the bank own. I could pay more for the same items (I know, you think they are better if the come from a small store that charges more) but I have to operate at some level of profit to make the bank payment. I also don't have the time to run all over town to the different stores to get what I need. Usually there are no other stores that carry the different items I need. We have made Lowes, Wal mart and HD prosperous and payed for them to hire local people to stock the items and check them out. My family were Rialroaders. How many men does it take now to run and operate a railroad? Several were car factory workers and earned 4 to 5 times what their neighbors earned so I don't feel for them. Ah yes!!! The good old days when everything was better!!!

 

[SnowRidge]

I suspect that one of the key driving factors to the decline in quality is Wall street. They have gotten a lot of bad press lately but I think they deserve some more.

Now that is a priceless quote. You should license it.

 

[crd]

Just some more on the quality debate. I think we get what we need w.r.t. product quality, based on what they are willing to pay. It's a a hard concept for a lot of engineer-types like me to grasp, but "good enough and cheap" is what sells in high volume so that's what Lowes and Home Depot stock. It's not so much a US vs. foreign thing, at least in my mind.

In a past life, I learned some interesting things about how small engine products are engineered - think string trimmers, etc. I may be a off on the exact numbers from memory, but generally this was the story:

The products for big box stores were designed to hit a <$100 price point and had a MTBF design of 17 operating hours. My first reaction was this was just outrageously short, but it was pointed out that the average buyer used the machine 20min/week for a 24week mowing season = 8hours/year. So consumer machines were designed to run for 2-3 years before needing service, and little engineering went into making them fixable.

Commercial products were designed for MTBF of 300 hours, but with a price point of >$300. Again, this was driven buy usage patterns based on 2h/day for a 24week mowing season = 240hours/year. So commercial machines were designed to go a full season before needing service, and were designed to be more easily serviced. Which is a good match for how they are used.

So why are big box stored full of inferior machines when 15X greater quality is available for 3X greater price? Because a lot of people don't need that quality and won't pay up-front for it. Lifecycle costs for the cheaper stuff are much higher, but pay-as-you-go is what most consumers choose rather than "investing" up front.

Then again, most people at Lowes or Home Depot don't research their purchase to death like we do here on TBN. So when they see the $99 Ryobi trimmer next to the $49 model, they think $99="premium product" and are bummed when it dies 3 years later. They have no idea that a more bulletproof $300 Stihl trimmer even exists.

 

[SnowRidge]

Just some more on the quality debate. I think we get what we need w.r.t. product quality, based on what they are willing to pay. It's a a hard concept for a lot of engineer-types like me to grasp, but "good enough and cheap" is what sells in high volume so that's what Lowes and Home Depot stock. It's not so much a US vs. foreign thing, at least in my mind.

In a past life, I learned some interesting things about how small engine products are engineered - think string trimmers, etc. I may be a off on the exact numbers from memory, but generally this was the story:

The products for big box stores were designed to hit a <$100 price point and had a MTBF design of 17 operating hours. My first reaction was this was just outrageously short, but it was pointed out that the average buyer used the machine 20min/week for a 24week mowing season = 8hours/year. So consumer machines were designed to run for 2-3 years before needing service, and little engineering went into making them fixable.

Commercial products were designed for MTBF of 300 hours, but with a price point of >$300. Again, this was driven buy usage patterns based on 2h/day for a 24week mowing season = 240hours/year. So commercial machines were designed to go a full season before needing service, and were designed to be more easily serviced. Which is a good match for how they are used.

So why are big box stored full of inferior machines when 15X greater quality is available for 3X greater price? Because a lot of people don't need that quality and won't pay up-front for it. Lifecycle costs for the cheaper stuff are much higher, but pay-as-you-go is what most consumers choose rather than "investing" up front.

Then again, most people at Lowes or Home Depot don't research their purchase to death like we do here on TBN. So when they see the $99 Ryobi trimmer next to the $49 model, they think $99="premium product" and are bummed when it dies 3 years later. They have no idea that a more bulletproof $300 Stihl trimmer even exists.

Right on target. I just bought a ~$300 Echo trimmer. My Ryobi lasted about two years.

 

[ray66v]

Ah!! The good old days. How we miss them. When a 25" color TV was $500 to $900 and only the wealthy family had them. When my goal in life was to make $100 a week instead of the 60 cents an hour I earned. When a car battery would last 2 years, maybe. When we had to always carry a long screwdriver to cross the solinoid to start the car. Oh Yah I forgot the tires that at 6000 miles was wore out and you better know how to change a tire. Aw yes when cars would last to maybe 40000 miles before you began seriously looking at trading. Even a junk yard wouldn't buy a 100000 mile car if there was one. The radios were also great. Also be sure you had some guys with you to help push it if it wasn't an automatic. Some people could even afford AC when it came out. Panasonic was a piece of cheap junk from Japan. No corrupt educated Policemen or politicians. All races were treated the same. Come on guys. It wasn't perfect. How many of those 60's cars, TV's, Tractors, houses, single pane windows, baseboard heaters, non vented gas stoves, coal burning heat stoves are still in use. Yes, some that were well cared for but most of them are gone. Wore out or disposed of for some thing newer. Most people want the new product and that keeps us working. I'm as nostalgic as most but it wasn't the wonderful world we some times remember. I even bought some Aluminum Christmas trees this year. Hundreds of thousands were made but most of them are in the trash and the few that remain were lost in attics for years. I hate Lowes and buy from them at least weekly. I have to have their stuff to maintain houses that me and the bank own. I could pay more for the same items (I know, you think they are better if the come from a small store that charges more) but I have to operate at some level of profit to make the bank payment. I also don't have the time to run all over town to the different stores to get what I need. Usually there are no other stores that carry the different items I need. We have made Lowes, Wal mart and HD prosperous and payed for them to hire local people to stock the items and check them out. My family were Rialroaders. How many men does it take now to run and operate a railroad? Several were car factory workers and earned 4 to 5 times what their neighbors earned so I don't feel for them. Ah yes!!! The good old days when everything was better!!!

Yes, people forget the "good old days" were not perfect either. Our standard of living today, is higher than it every was. The poor in this country would be considered wealthy in a large portion of the world.

The fact is it's never going to be a perfect country, or world, for that matter. In any given time, good or bad, there are people or areas of the country that are left out.

Freedom requires the freedom to be able to fail. It's the same thing as "tough love" for your kids, it hurts you to do it. But, its necessary sometimes.

Competition from foreign manufactures has had some positive impacts. It has in many cases, resulted in better quality products. And also lower prices, that have resulted in a higher standard of living.

Everyone would like to see manufacturing return to the US. But, no one wants to go back to where a TV is a luxury, most cannot afford.

Like everything else in life, there has to be a balance.

 

[art]

There are a lot of good points here! Some thoughts that come to mind that are around about the quality that is available today.

Quality normally is held in check by marketing! US companies have to make quick profits for the share holders. At the end of world war two it was precieved that Japanese only built junk, this is not true, that was all that the buyers were buying from them, quality all costs about the same(within a few tolerances) so all things considered US was the only quality player in our market.

Companies are still doing simulair to that today to a degree with other countries. JD and others are using countries like India and Mexico to build a lot of there products do to the lower costs of help. Depending on the tooling and designs, they could be as good as anyones, or they could be nearly antiquated but with a shiney label from a well marketed company. The Marketing department of the company can seperate it from reality and retails the concepts.

In a nutshell high costs have driven much of the manufacturing out of the US for major commodities for older companies that are still here. Unfortunately these higher costs and help problems have cost many manufacturers to go under that used to be household names. Some companies didn't have the fiscal ability to overcome the changes in the market. Think about Detroit, the wages that they pay in the auto industry vs the southern Japanese manufacturers that only pay 1/3 the costs! Who is raping who and how can you build as good as a product whan you figure in the cost of the labor when all else is the same? How long before the next bail out for this failing concept of socialism.

 

[SnowRidge]

Socialism is when the government pays and sets benefits. Capitalism is when labor and capital are free to let the market determine wages and benefits. Unfortunately, Detroit acquiesced to the UAW's labor market demands, and now both parties are suffering.

Poor management and self defeating labor actions do not socialism make.

 

[art]

Poor management and self defeating labor actions do not socialism make.

You are right to a degree! When the government takes your money and decides where it goes to a good source or not it is!