Tree planting sweetspot... and recommendations requested

[GLyford]

The information about a 2" caliper being about 'top end' for transplant without delay is what I am looking for. [...]

I've seen 'bare root' trees online. But how are they compared to potted? I'd rather support my local guys if possible, but that $$$ must be reasonable. If there is a premium for a local potted that outweighs its true benefit to me, I'd rather not. But I'm willing to give a bit if its worth it. However, If I can buy more/better bare root trees online, I'll do that. I don't have the $ to simply waste on sentiment.

I am not sure you will find bare root trees in 2". I have seen them in fruit trees about 1/2" or so, but they top out at about 5' including roots to fit in a shipping box. A 2" hardwood tree is going to be too tall to ship easily, I suspect what you will find for them will be potted.

The bare root fruit trees get established very fast, I would guess at about two years you are about where you'd be with a larger potted fruit tree, at a lot less cost.

If you are putting value ahead of everything else, I would put a premium on being able to pick out your own trees rather than relying on luck-of-the-truck. Every place will tell you they have a replacement guarantee. My unhappy redbud even had some super duper multi-year warranty from an excellent nursery...they were out of business in less than a year, just couldn't keep up with the box stores, so that warranty is useless. Pick a good healthy tree from the start.

 

[GLyford]

I will also note this about shade trees, one grower told me the biggest buyers for them are cities and towns. A number of towns near me have gone from spec'ing 2" trees to spec'ing 3 or 4", because people will actually come by and dig them up again (next town over lost about 2 dozen planted around a new school!) and the bigger trees are too big to move. So there is a lot less demand for those 2" trees now. Even then, a lot of the places have stopped carrying them altogether because those larger trees are too much work for them, too.

 

[Deerherd]

The lowest cost and best results for me have been bare root trees placed in pots for a year or two. For the last four years I have planted 150-200 trees per year in pots and replanted them when they outgrow the pot.

Young trees need lots of water and if you want them to survive you are going to need to water them. A long dry spell with 200 trees even planted 15 feet apart take lots of time and effort.

You can put 200 potted trees in a very little area which also makes fertilizing and weeding much easier. They grow much faster and have a well established root system. I pot them in 3-4 gallon pots with a great potting soil and put them where I can reach them with the hose.

The first photo of the trees on the trailer are from 18 months ago, they were 12”-18” bare root stock and the second photo are the trees now 36”, 18 months later. Those trees will be planted in the spring and their pots will be used for new ones.

 

[Dadnatron]

For fruit and nut trees... time is not that important. They will be purely for 'fun' and I suspect they will become large and pretty enough within my lifetime.

My biggest concern is for the shade trees. Oaks, sycamore, walnut, etc. I'm trying to find the optimal size vs growth vs cost. It sounds like for other than very specific placements of BIG trees, such as at my main entrance when it is built, bare root trees might be my best buy.

Now... does anyone know of a really good nursery that would have them within 100m or reasonable driving distance, of Lexington KY? Or Indianapolis for that matter. If its best to look at the specific tree, I'd like to do so.

I am somewhat confused about bare root trees however.

Everything I've heard is that they should be planted when they are dormant. However, if they are sent to nurseries in the fall... how can they be dormant when they are initially dug up? Its Mid Oct and leaves are just barely turning in Indiana and KY. I don't suspect true dormancy will be had until early November. But as I see it, there are bare root trees at nurseries or available now. ? ? ?

 

[oosik]

We moved onto our 80 acres in 1982 and began planting potted and bare root trees that year. We planted both ornamentals and fruit. We had the best luck with bare root which we planted directly into the soil. We were able to purchase bare root, year old, ornamentals from the Park Service for around $10 to $12 for 25. We got fruit trees from local green houses.

We soon found our biggest problem was pocket gophers. Over the years we have planted around 175 to 200 various ornamentals and I would estimate that 35 to 45 are still alive and kicking. We planted between 25 to 30 various fruit trees and 15 still survive. Beyond a shadow of doubt - apples do the best here. Soft fruit just can't tolerate the dry conditions, pocket gophers, SW wind damage and the deer & raccoons breaking down the limbs.

Its difficult just getting the heartiest of apple trees to survive and produce. If a person were to do a cost/benefit analysis - store bought fruit would win out in a heart beat.

 

[aczlan]

I am not sure you will find bare root trees in 2". I have seen them in fruit trees about 1/2" or so, but they top out at about 5' including roots to fit in a shipping box. A 2" hardwood tree is going to be too tall to ship easily, I suspect what you will find for them will be potted.

The bare root fruit trees get established very fast, I would guess at about two years you are about where you'd be with a larger potted fruit tree, at a lot less cost.

We put in 20 bare root apple trees this spring that were over 1/2” DBH (IIRC they were almost 1"), they were about 7' tall. I think that they were 3rd year trees (3 years post grafting) and we should have fruit on them next year.

Aaron Z

 

[ruffdog]

About 20 years ago I planted Red, White, and Black Oaks on a 5 acre area I had. They were 24" seedlings and the trees are now big enough for me to mow under the lower limbs with the NH tractor. The bigger Red Oaks are about 8" dia trunks. I planted the Oaks on 25ft centers then planted Black Walnuts between them so the whole field was trees on 12.5ft centers. That was way too close for the trees to mature and branch out so the Walnuts became firewood.

Part of my property was planted for a x-mas tree farm and the mature Scotch Pine and Blue Spruce have issues so I have contracted to have them (~1800) removed. To fill those empty areas, I collected acorns from my Swamp White Oaks and am sprouting them (~120) in the frig as we speak. I have learned from my mistakes and will be spacing these at about 40-50ft as big trees need room to fill out.

If you buy bigger trees, they will need much more watering and staking up than small trees because of the big crown and small established root system.

I have used the protection tubes but mine are split down the side which helps to install and remove them. They produce tall skinny trees quickly but trees like that need staking for a while. Just remember, if you get pests inside the tube, good critters can't get to them to eat them. You must look at all your little trees in the tubes once in a while.

 

[forgeblast]

Tubex are strong and reuseable. I have had some blue-x which are recycled x-ray films and they did not last. If you have deer in the area you go with a 5' tube. When the seedlings are pushing on the tubes (getting thick) you can cut the tube off and reuse them. I put them in a 15 x 15 foot grid. If you are looking at windbreaks I would look at the thula giant vs a poplar. Poplar are fast growing trees that only last so many years. A pioneering species. Also look at pests in your area, avoid ash (eab) hemlock (hemlock wooly adlgedig) etc...
My tubes worked great, they kept their leaves longer and broke bud sooner allowing them to get more growth. Yes you push the tube in a bit to stop the voles.
Here is my original post http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/167255-crp-planting.html?highlight=crep+planting

 

[Dadnatron]

I've been looking at location for my orchard, and I think I have a good one. it is a rough (at the moment) area which has been in sod and unfarmed for a long time. It likely has never been farmed, just mown. It is On a South facing hill with a mild slope, just enough to be 'steep' for horses, and I won't regret not including it into pasture. My plan has always been to just fence around it, but I think I can make it into a good orchard, given some mild terracing.

I think I will plow it up this fall, terrace it in the spring, and then plant next year. I'd rather have my orchard ready and waiting than move trees or fight my lack of patience for the rest of my life.

I'll post some pics in about a week and get your thoughts. I don't know the slope and will check it out this coming weekend.

 

[skylarkguy]

You might consider what species of trees to plant based on the greater landscape needs. Perhaps look at improving habitat connectivity and space for birds and other wildlife.

 

[newbury]

If at all possible plow and terrace it this fall. That way the freeze thaw cycles can work on it and you should have good planting come spring.

Also you might try talking with Drew http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/members/daugen.html because he has done a lot of posting over on the "Good Morning" thread on planting his acreage and various mail order nurseries.

 

[Dadnatron]

The area in which I live is mainly Ash, Oak, redbud, dogwood, and Buckeye. Osage orange, Maple, sycamore, have been brought in and planted and seem to work well. Actually, about anything seems to grow well in the area, other than <5 zone requirements.

This planting, however, will be strictly for fruit/nut production. I'll likely scatter some other fruit/nut bearing trees around the farm as well, but this orchard will be just for fruit/nuts. It might end up just as a fruit only location. I have fence rows for berrys and hazelnuts, I have a great grove of Ash and buckeyes in which I plan on giving a good seeding of mushrooms. It has a spring and is 'damp, dark, and cool' all year long.

I love this place... and I'm excited to work towards making it what I can see in my mind's eye.

 

[deanocraft]

I am fond of trees that add color to the woods in the fall, like sassafras and maples. At our place, in western NC, we have mostly poplars. We have been dropping seeds from an eastern redbud tree for the last couple years into our woods... and when we come across some sassafras or maple saplings, we transplant them in. We plan to plant some fruit trees either this winter or next spring. I think the arborday foundation has some cheap saplings...

 

[Streetcar]

How close is emerald Ash borer to your location?
They have decimated Ash around Cincinnati. Individual trees can be saved with yearly treatments.
Stark brothers is mail order with great variety of fruit trees

 

[Dadnatron]

How close is emerald Ash borer to your location?
They have decimated Ash around Cincinnati. Individual trees can be saved with yearly treatments.
Stark brothers is mail order with great variety of fruit trees

We have 400yo Blue Ash, which are essentially immune to the borer if the trees are healthy. I've been trying to find a source for new Blue Ash, but given the scare from the Emerald Ash Borer, no one is selling any trees or seedlings. My trees are so old, I don't think they are producing seeds any longer. And I haven't found any seedlings at all.

But yes, the Emerald Ash Borer has devastated the areas Ash... all except for the Blue Ash.

 

[ruffdog]

Plenty of Ash firewood around here because they are all dying.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Ive had great success throwing sprouting acorns in the ground, or in mulch. I have some nice oaks that grew pretty fast.
If you was close id give you some 15'-20' oak trees. Got a few i grew just because i like planting trees and seeds.

 

[Dadnatron]

I have an area in which I want to specifically plant an 'orchard'. About 3/4ac on a small hillside. I don't know the pitch, and it is likely less than it appears. It can be driven in all directions, so isn't too steep. But, I'd like to terrace it and plant 'fruit/nut' type trees on it. The work of terracing it won't be hard, but I want to try to insure I design the whole spot well.

I know next to nothing about fruit trees, and don't want an inordinate amount of work/upkeep. But some isn't too bad.

Does anyone have an experience in terracing or a link/info on designing such a thing? Again, this is NOT very steep, but enough that row cropping it would be difficult. So, they just put it in grass and left it.

And... speaking of grass. What type of grass would you plant for UNDER the trees? There is nothing there now. I plowed and disced the hillside last fall/spring. So I can plant anything which makes sense and would be easiest to deal with and most beneficial overall, to a long term orchard. Both in upkeep and in orchard optimal ground cover.

 

[Dadnatron]

This is a Sat image of the space for the proposed orchard. About 3/4ac with Southern exposure.

 

[MossRoad]

Terracing requires dirt work. Dirt work exposes the soil to erosion. You'll have to slope the terraces away from the edge, back towards the hill, then provide drainage at the back side to remove the accumulated water.... VS just leaving a natural hillside with grasses that control erosion that's probably already in place.

As a kid, there were 4 houses on our block on top of an escarpment. My dad terraced his back away from the edge of the escarpement, and provided drainage at the back edge to move rainwater away through pipes, down the hill. The other 3 neighbors sloped their yards towards the downhill, to expose the view.

All three had major washout problems, but ours.

Anytime you change natural drainage, you really gotta plan out what to do with the water it'll catch in a large rain.