Tree planting sweetspot... and recommendations requested

[Dadnatron]

We purchased 84ac of beautiful mildly rolling pasture in the Lexington KY area. It was row cropped for several years and tobacco before then. Most of it is cleared field, with only a few large trees. I have a spot which has around 20 4-500yo blue ash which are on their last legs (They'll likely outlive me, but there are no young ones at this point.) There are also a few other trees (black cherry unfortunately for me). I have a spring in one are that has many black walnut and buckeye. And then there are the few scattered oak of various sorts and ages here and there.

I would like to plant MANY more trees of all sorts. But unfortunately, I didn't think of this 20 years ago, so I am a little behind. I'm running up on 50yo, so I will be around for a while hopefully, but I'm not going to get the Mature Tree benefit from most of what I plant. However, I would like some decent trees of decent size ASAP. But... I recognize my wallet might not be in favor of transplanting 12" oaks and whatnot at this point.

So... I need recommendations and opinions.

Kentucky forestry has seedlings 1yr old predominately, available for $35/10. This is a great price, but I likely wouldn't see any benefit overall before senility kicked into my life. I am thinking about planting an area to serve as a nursery though. Never know when I might want to be planting some 10yo trees down the road.

But what I'd like from you is to know where you think the 'sweetspot' is for $$$ vs tree size? I recognize that is a vague question given the sweetspot varies depending on the size of the bank account. And while I'm not swimming in $$... I'm certainly willing to put some money into this endeavor. How much... well... I really can't say because I don't really know what I need.

I'd like to have some LARGE trees along my driveway. I'd like to have some large trees scattered throughout my property, along fences, etc. All in all, I suspect if I could snap my fingers, I'd like an additional 70-100 trees over my acreage. If I could pick, I'd choose LIVE OAKS... heh... but then I don't live in that area. But I KNOW I don't want Evergreens.

I'm not to particular on 'what' type of tree if it fills my thought of what a tree should look like. I'm thinking about oaks and whatnot for my ideal shaped tree. These will be primarily separate from one another. This will be more of a 'land scaping' type planting rather than a woodland type planting. I want them far enough apart in their locations to grow into the typical rounded single tree shape or a rough approximation depending on location. (ie the trees along the drive will probably be a little closer together at maturity.) I've looked at Tulip Poplars as a quick growing tree.

I'd also like ideas about planting fruit/nut trees. I grew up with a small orchard at my Grandparent's house, but haven't dealt with them since. I don't really want lines of trees (except along the drives/roads).

Basically... I can use any and all thoughts about trees, planting, timing, and whatever else you can think about to help me make these decisions. The most desired thought however, is what type of tree will meet my 'size' needs early and then I can intermix a lot of the slower growing trees. Cost vs size vs outcome is really what I am looking at.

I will have a hydraulic auger on my FEL and can rent up to a 36" tree bit. I've even thought about purchasing a used tree spade if it would make sense, and sell down the road. I would be willing to purchase 'excess trees' from neighbors and move them to my place, if it made sense. It would make MUCH more sense if I had a large spade.

I have so many thoughts and so little information, I'm hoping you all can set me on the straight and narrow.

 

[joeu235]

My grandfather planted pecan trees from pecans when he was 70. They are now a beautiful grove and I think about him every time I see the trees.

Those super inexpensive trees from the forest service will be something to remember you by for generations.

 

[Streetcar]

I planted a mixture of evergreen and oaks. 100 trees
Got 4 yr old trees that can be seen from tractor
Bought at cold stream farm out of Michigan
Bought some fruit trees from stark brothers

 

[Redlands Okie]

Nice thing about a mix tree of types is less issues with disease or insect problems later.

 

[fishheadbob]

I've planted maybe 20,000 trees over the decades; mostly conifers (Christmas Tree grower) but that number includes perhaps 2,000 hardwoods, and I manage about 20 acres of mature northern hardwoods. I started with 400 walnuts 45 years ago and am still planting.
For large trees I'd start scouring local nurseries and garden shops. Winter is coming those places don't want to overwinter inventory and might be agreeable to a large scale deal. They won't be #1s as they're leftovers but they should be decent and keep you busy for a while, and they will be varieties appropriate for your area.
Buy the large auger. A tree spade is mostly for transplanting. Expect to pay $5000 and up for a decent used 36" spade, more for a larger one. You may want to surf around looking for one but I don't think you need it at present unless you go ahead and buy trees with large rootballs. Most spades are set up for skidsteers and while converting them to FEL or 3 point isn't hard there's a reason guys who use them a lot use skidsteers. There's also a question of how much spade your 5100 can handle, they're heavy.. A fair sized spade, but just how fair I cannot guess.
I never liked the state nursery in New York. While the prices are a little less than commercial nurseries, so is the quality. None of the professionals I know use it; I cannot speak towards the Kentucky state nursery.
The internet is crawling with commercial nurseries selling every sort of tree under the sun; familiarize yourself with who is out there, what sells for how much, and the hard part, who is good and who just has slick web pages. For larger trees a semi load can make sense, but you have to unload them in a hurry and keep them healthy until you get them in the ground, and then you still have to keep them happy for a few years until they're established enough to go it on their own.
Smaller trees will probably need weed control, maybe deer protection, maybe fertilization. Larger trees will need staking and maybe some of the aforementioned stuff.
Anyway you have your work cut out for you physically and mentally. Start learning, try to avoid mistakes cause we all make them, and most of all, good luck.

 

[Ford850]

I've purchased from Cold Stream Farm and had good luck. In higher numbers they have excellent prices and the stock I received has been very healthy. For my property, Tulip Poplar and Black Cherry are probably the fastest growing trees. I have planted many hundreds of bare root seedlings, some that I started from seed on my own. I have also planted thousands of nuts/seeds which works out well for broad areas. I found a good source for seedlings is under large maple, hickory, and oak trees, near the edge of a woods so there is lots of light on the ground, and in soft soil. In early spring you can pluck hundreds of little seedlings and replant them while they are fresh.
Wholesale Shrub & Bare Root Tree Nursery in Michigan | Cold Stream Farm

 

[Dadnatron]

What size of tree is the best to be planting?

What I am trying to determine is whether I get a reasonable 'bang for my buck' purchasing a larger tree and at what point is a 'bigger tree' not going to be appreciably better than a smaller tree?

If I purchase a 3" vs 1" caliper vs a seedling... Where (in your opinion) is the sweetspot?

Maybe a better way to ask is... Will a 3" tree be appreciably bigger and more mature than a seedling in 5 yrs and 10yrs, given equal care and conditions? Say for Oak, sycamore, and black walnut? And what I mean by 'bigger' is driving by... will it be a big difference in overall 'appearance'... not specific measurements. This is more of an aesthetic question.

Also what about for nut and fruit trees? How much do I gain by purchasing larger nut and fruit trees and would it be much different in 5 yrs? 10 yrs? This is more of a production question.

And does anyone have any experience with Chinese chestnuts? Filberts, Hazel nuts, etc? Other generally eaten nuts? I've never had a nut that didn't come out of some container, but I'd like to give it a go. I have tons of black walnuts, but this year I'm too busy to deal with them. Hopefully next year I'll at least get to give it a try. This is purely for personal/family enjoyment, not for sale in any way.

 

[rd_macgregor]

I gave up buying seedlings, since the price didn't yield very many trees in the ground. For the past couple of decades, I've been planting from seed. Mostly, I've planted red oak, but also English oak, English/Persiann walnut and butternut. I have little oaks all through my woods and along the lanes through the fields. The biggest that were planted from seed are probably only 10' high. My biggest oaks are a row of English oaks planted along a lane nearly 20 years ago from 8' tall saplings; these are now over 20' tall with nicely rounded canopies and DBH approaching 12".

WHERE they are growing makes a huge difference...shade, soil type, soil moisture, competition.
Seedlings planted back in the woods 20 years ago aren't much over 6' high, but ones planted at the same time, but getting more light, might be 20'. Wildlife can be problematic for young trees' survival as can competition from other vegetation (especially when planting from seed or with very small seedlings).

 

[forgeblast]

I am in my 9th year of a CREP planting, Conservation Reserve Enhancement Program. We enrolled two acres of old pasture land that was eroding. In that we were cost share the amount of the trees, tubes and labor. I then get a rental payment for the 15 years. Once thats done I can do what I want with the property.
I planted a mix of hardwoods that were appropriate for the moisture issues in that part of the property. I planted butternut, black walnut, pin oak, sugar maple, white oak, and bushes (required so many trees and bushes). 5' tubex tree tubes were a must. The deer would have eaten everything down, while the voles would have taken out the rest. I did all my buying through Lawyer Nursery. The trees are all out of the tubes now and doing great. I have been able to reuse the tubes to plant more black walnut in other parts of my property.

 

[Dadnatron]

All of these trees will be basically 'full sun'. Mostly, I am trying to improve the aesthetics of my property but also to add a bit of fruit/nuts as well. But most trees will be purely aesthetic in nature. I don't have wind problems, but I do have a short 80yd spot that I'd like to grow a tree break to block the neighbors grain silos. They are within 10yds of the property line. I was thinking about those long skinny poplars... can't think of the name right now.

Water and fertilizer is up to me, so I can do it optimally. When established, I suspect they will get all the water they need simply by rain. Area is within 15m of Lexington KY. I think the area is ideal for most of the trees I am interested in, basically because I want only trees which will do well here.

But overall, I can't believe I will be adding more than 100 or so trees to the entire place. That might not turn out to be accurate in the end, but it seems about 'right in my thinking'. Might be short and 200 might be where we end up. Just depends.

 

[Dadnatron]

Forgeblast

Thanks for the post. I've never even heard of Tubex... so in looking at them and seeing their utility, I'll ask why you chose that brand over the others?

I see PLANTRA brand as well. Probably more, but this was just a quick check. Do these types of tubes really make a difference in speed of growth or is it just that they keep the deer from eating them? Do you push the tube down into the ground? Otherwise, how would you keep voles from just going under the tube?

I'd love to hear any other recommendations on tree planting you have. This tube thing is new to me and something I'll likely do now that I know about it.

At what 'size' would you NOT put a tube on a tree? ie what size is big enough that you wouldn't bother? In my situation, since I want them ALL to grow as they are more aesthetic than building a wooded area, would you do it regardless?

Do they really do 'this' for the trees? Or is this hype? The video is a little 'too good to be true' so I'm skeptical but hopeful.

 

[GLyford]

I have transplanted a number of red and sugar maples into my 1-1/2 acre yard, some purchased, and some rescued (friends, clearing fence lines, etc.).

If you like them, red maples are cheap and grow reasonably fast. Reasonably drought tolerant. Can find them darn near everywhere, often free.

I do not like the specimens I have gotten from the Arbor Day Foundation. They all tend to be at the small end of their size range, and of borderline health. Much better luck with ones from commercial growers or nurseries.

I have had OK results with salvaged volunteers, often growing up through other shrubs. In one case, I had about a 2" caliper maple growing up through a euonymus (burning bush) about 20' tall. Should have left it and cut the burning bush, but I yanked the maple at the time. Didn't replant it as the chain stripped the bark. I trimmed the burning bush back almost to the stump to get at it, and it's back as big as it ever was (maybe the 3rd time I have cut it back). I regularly get pin and choke cherry growing through other shrubs too, but I never replant them (they're messy and are always sort of seedy and rough looking).

I got a 3" red from a local nursery which has been nothing but a joy, nice shape, always healthy. Up to about 6 to 8" DBH now. Part of it's happiness may be because it is growing where one of the downspouts comes off the garage.

I got a dozen or so sugar maples from a friend, from 1-2" caliper. About half have thrived and are in the 6" range now. A few keep struggling. A few didn't make it. 2" seems like a good sweet spot for low cost/effort to get started, 3" is a lot of work because the root ball is so heavy. 1" can work well if they are healthy to start. Smaller is a toss-up, but worth a shot, especially if you have a good nursery spot to see which ones are happiest, or have a spot you can throw something until it takes off or something better comes along.

Regardless of how I come by these trees, two things keep coming up for how successful they are when planted:
1. Overall health of the specimen. Thin, weedy, reedy trees will almost always stay sort of thin and struggling. Trees with good structure and shape and a profusion of leaves always seem to come back from transplanting and thrive...mostly. The exceptions are most often due to
2. Location where planted. Places on my lot where the trees get a fair amount of water that flows past them all seem to do fairly well. Ones close to the street subject to salt almost always struggle. Ones planted in the shade of other trees never quite thrive as well as ones planted in bright sunlight.

I don't know if it's the right thing to do or not, but if the top is healthy I will clip lower branches (maybe 1/3 to 1/2) to encourage taller growth early. It has mostly even worked.

I have had one tree die back to the stump and resprout. I picked the largest sprout and cut the others, and it is now larger than when it died the 1st time.

Other species:
Most of the fruit trees I have planted have done pretty well, except peaches but they're fussy anyway. We get a crop from them just often enough to keep trying,
when they produce they really flood you with fruit. Our apples do OK as trees, but we never seem to get great fruit. I like them anyway. Pears do OK. Cherries and plums always seem to struggle here, and the birds never left us any anyway. All were from stark/miller/nurseries bought bare root about 4' tall. For fruit trees, that seems like the sweet spot.

We have a mulberry that is very healthy, and seems to be more resistant than some of the others to bugs and caterpillars.

We had initial success growing clump birches, but there is a bark borer in our area and now they are all struggling or gone.

We have one red oak, it is struggling. Gypsy moths have hit it hard, but it was also shaded by a large pine for a while. With the pine gone I am hoping it will fill out and take off.

We regularly get red and white oaks sprouting all over the place, so if you can find a fast growing (healthy, in good light/soil) one, it is worth a shot, but in general they can grow pretty slow. But if they are the tree you like the most, plant them now. You will get more joy from a sapling than you will from nothing. Check if your area has oak wilt before getting too carried away with them, though.

We have a bronze beech that was end-of season last year, this spring the gypsy moths hit it and it is struggling, so I don't know if it will make it next year or not.

We got a large end-of-season redbud that has never been happy. Got one in the regular seaon that has done OK. Dogwood trees have mostly done OK, though the two red-stem shrubs we got died off after a decade. Wife got a magnolia which has done well.

I have two filbert bushes (needed for pollination). Not trees, bushes. From the arbor day people, so note caveat above. They are only about shoulder high, kind of thin, but keep sending up more stems. Not a shade tree at all, really, but a nice accent shrub (too open a growth pattern for a privacy planting) ...and you get hazelnuts (assuming you can beat the squirrels to them). Fun to grow, produce quick, but I wouldn't really call it a tree.

I rescued a 12" tall white pine from a flower bed and planted it along my back fence 17 years ago, it's now the tallest tree on the property, though there are a few others here and there...they take up a lot of room, shade out a lot of other trees, and block sight lines all year round. Good for privacy if you have the space and want something quick, but mostly I'd just as soon have hardwoods like you. The shade is nice in summer, especially if you cut the bottom branches up to head high or so so you can walk/work under them...gets annoying in the winter when I'd rather have the light. I have started cutting them down on the property and haven't regretted it. None has been a good enough specimen for lumber (bent, too many low limbs being yard trees).

We have a fir and a few spruces. Slower growing than the pine, but in general I like them more...but still have some of the same drawbacks as pines, take up a lot of room, block sight lines, etc. You can't really hang out under them like a maple or oak.

 

[s219]

I was thinking about those long skinny poplars... can't think of the name right now.

You're not talking about hybrid poplars, are you? That might be worth looking into if you want a fast growing poplar that has a variety of uses. Not sure I'd consider it a specimen tree -- it's more along the lines of a plantation tree used for re-foresting, lumber, pulp, etc.

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but you might want to look into propagating trees via twig cuttings. If there are existing healthy desirable trees on your property that are amenable to that method, it's a way to quickly create your own plantings. I have done it with tulip poplar and it works well. Works with many hardwoods and many fruit trees too. After the trees go dormant in winter, you clip some twigs with buds (generally 1 bud per clipping), store them in a cool/damp (but not mold growing) place. In early spring, put them in grow bags with some good soil, bud "up", and begin watering. Plenty of information on the internet if you want to research it. Some trees will propagate just by taking a clipping in early spring and sticking it in the ground! Willow is one of those.

To me, whether clippings, seedlings, or seed, the real issue is babysitting them after they are planted and growing. One year we had a real dry spell and it was a chore to get all my seedlings watered, mainly because I had planted them scattered across 8 acres where they needed to go, and not where they would be easy to find and water!

 

[Streetcar]

For immediate impact 2" tree is best buy. It is the biggest tree that will grow as transplanted. Larger trees take a while to recover from transplant. The tubes protect against deer and voles damage

 

[newbury]

<snip>

I would like to plant MANY more trees of all sorts. But unfortunately, I didn't think of this 20 years ago, so I am a little behind. I'm running up on 50yo, so I will be around for a while hopefully, but I'm not going to get the Mature Tree benefit from most of what I plant. However, I would like some decent trees of decent size ASAP. But... I recognize my wallet might not be in favor of transplanting 12" oaks and whatnot at this point.

If you want hardwoods it's best to buy mature trees (which you have done) and clear around them. I've about 70 acres of trees at my house in Mississippi and there are a half dozen or less "mature" oaks (well over 2 foot DBH). I've about 35 acres of woods in northern Vermont, probably only a few trees over 3' DBH. I cherish all the big ones.

<snip>
So... I need recommendations and opinions.

Map your soils and topography. Talk to your state forester. Buy a few thousand for example - "super pine" plant a few acres to get started NOW (well probably next spring). Here's a catalog
. Just plan on needing several willing backs to get them in the ground promptly.

I had about 40 acres planted back in 2005 w/ supposedly a super pine and they are about ready for their first thinning. Another decade and

Buy as many Kentucky forestry seedlings as you can handle (plant and water) and get them planted somewhere.

And instill in your offspring the love for trees, forests, and land because they will need to pass it down to their grandchildren for the mature hardwoods.

 

[fishheadbob]

Tubes are necessary if you have deer, bunnies, mice, etc. It's better to have the tube in place rather than discover that you needed them.
Someone mentioned you really need to know your soil types and your drainage.
Contact your local forestry agency (they exist) for recommendations, pitfalls, what works and what doesn't. Those folks all attended some forestry college somewhere and are full of information to be shared. Your taxes pay for them.
A tree grown in the open will be bushier and not grow as tall as quick as one in partial shade which has to reach for the sunlight.

Lastly 2 general rules of thumb which can differ wildly by species. When transplanting : the first year they sleep, the second year they creep, and the third year they leap. Figure roughly and after the second year to expect about about 1 foot of growth per year. Species, soil, weather, moisture, and so forth can cause that 1 foot number to be all over the place.

 

[Dadnatron]

This might sound bad, but I have more money than time. What I mean is that, especially for trees, I am willing to pay more to get more. I'm not a Daddy Warbucks, but I don't have to go seedlings or seeds just for cost savings. HOWEVER, I work too hard for my $$$ to waste it, so if the difference between a seedling and a 3" is negligable at 10yrs, then I'd rather go for the seedling. But if it gives me a 'real tree' for those 10yrs at a reasonable cost, it might be worth it... along with about 1000 other variables, I'm sure you all can understand.

The information about a 2" caliper being about 'top end' for transplant without delay is what I am looking for. If I waste 3yrs on a 3" tree to begin growing again and NO time on a 2" and there is a significant cost difference, I'd rather buy the 2".

I've seen 'bare root' trees online. But how are they compared to potted? I'd rather support my local guys if possible, but that $$$ must be reasonable. If there is a premium for a local potted that outweighs its true benefit to me, I'd rather not. But I'm willing to give a bit if its worth it. However, If I can buy more/better bare root trees online, I'll do that. I don't have the $ to simply waste on sentiment.

 

[Streetcar]

If you are planting significant number of trees, you can shop further for trees. When planting 70 trees my cheapest price was out of Georgia. For 2inch trees planted in Ohio

 

[Streetcar]

I have usually planted bare root for fruit trees

 

[dougtrr2]

I heard a quote, the gist of it was " the best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago, the next best time is today". I have a small forest and can't really add anything that has already be said.

Doug in SW IA