Thoughts on mega wind and solar projects

[rontaki]

I agree. I burned wood for 30+ years, but when I converted from propane to natural gas, the wood stove was replaced by a gas stove. It heats well and is super convenient. My girlfriend kids me and calls it a lazy man’s stove. Guilty. I don’t miss cutting and splitting 4 cords every year.


View attachment 5016935View attachment 5016936

You think that's lazy? I installed a remote control thermostat on our house's heater. Just use the phone from the La-Z-Boy chair
. .

 

[Phil Timmons]

The average person is not going to tie an EV into a wall mount plug connected to solar panels for 60 bucks. Sorry, that’s just not happening.

wow. This why I try to number things out for you.

Let's get this a little more basic?

1. A typical house might have a 10000 Watt Solar PV system. That is typically enough to offset a house + EV charging usage. If they do it cheap, and keep it off the roof, that could cost around $10,000 ($1 per Watt), and give them electricity for about 2 to 3 cents per kWh "behind the meter."

We good on that?

2. To add a garage plug -- next to the Circuit Breaker panel -- costs about $60. $40 for the plug, and about $20 for the breaker. Typically we may through that in for "Free" as part of a Solar PV install.

Make sense? We can look up the parts on Lowes, or Home Depot, if that helps?

I think that’s unnecessarily harsh. What other country(s) do you think are less “retarded”? Please name them.

In terms of building and installing Solar PV? Certainly China fits that. China is leading the world in Solar PV. And China is obviously leading US. To be behind China means that US is slower, right? To be slow or slower is what Retarded means.

I built solar powered homes and home additions years ago, some with geothermal, too.
How many did you build? It’s been a few years, but I’m quite familiar with how they work and how they were installed. I built home made solar panels for the home I grew up in with my father to heat hot water. They were crude, but they worked.

All good by me. Probably a 1000? Dunno. Quit counting long ago. At least in the high 100s. Such a mix between designs, permitting, installs, commissioning . . . on and on.

But now I am a little concerned on this. Do you understand the Thermal Solar Collectors you did some decades ago . . . are an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THING than Solar Photo-Voltaic? Solar PV does not work based on heat nor hot water. Solar PV directly converts LIGHT, generally from the Sun into ELECTRICITY. Here is a quick backgrounder >>>

Try a post without a bash on the US for once, or personal digs on anyone who disagrees with you. Humility is not your strong suit.

Not really bashing US. My concern is that the present owner-operators are -- as noted above -- rather Retarded, and driving US further into ignorance and debt.

Do you not see US becoming more stupid -- like in a Stupor -- and further into debt? These are things of objective measure.

 

[sd455dan]

Note that in his EV example of buying solar panels versus buying gasoline over the lifetime of a ICE, he neglected to include the cost of installation of the solar panels, a battery storage system for the energy, and an electrical hook up station from the battery to the car, which would probably triple or quadruple his estimated costs. Other than those large other expenditures, I agree with what he says ;P ;P

The other thing I dislike is there is a huge loss in American labor away from mining fossil fuels.
Everyone knows solar panels and a lot of batteries are primarily produced in China, a hostile nation.
If these components were built here, it would be a lot more acceptable to many Americans to shift to more solar power.
Changing Americans minds from losing 100’s of thousands of petroleum and mining jobs to producing batteries and solar panels is a tough sell.

Tesla has big plans on manufacturing solar panels in the USA, (considering locations in New York, Arizona, and Idaho). Goal of 100 GW production by 2028

Morgan Stanley Sees $190 Billion Upside in Tesla’s Solar Ambitions | OilPrice.com

Morgan Stanley says Tesla’s energy business could gain $20–$50 billion in value if Elon Musk succeeds in building 100 GW per year of U.S. solar cell manufacturing capacity.

oilprice.com

 

[Grendahl]

Green energy doesn’t cost more to supply. It’s cheaper. My power costs have been level for the past decade even though we now get a significant percentage of power in the grid from renewables. If NJ companies and taxes are jacking up the rates, this isn’t due to the cost of energy production.

That is a commonly made claim, but it is not true. The "renewables are cheaper" claim is based on a calculation called "LCOE" or levelized cost of energy. That is not a legitimate metric to use when you are talking about intermittent generation since it does not include significant costs that need to be considered when connecting to the grid. LCOE doesn't included the cost of intermittency, which is the cost of having to pay for another generation source to pick up the load when the intermittent generator fails to deliver. It also does not include the cost of extending the grid to the remote locations where solar farms and wind farms a typically located. If you are going to depend on batteries to smooth out the output variability of the intermittent generators, then the cost of those batteries would also have to be included in the cost of the renewables. FCOE or full cost of energy is a better metric for comparing generation sources. The wind and solar farms also do not supply the rotating inertia required to stabilize the voltage and frequency of the power on the grid unless they are set up with synchronous or "grid forming" inverters. Those types of inverters are typically not used due the higher cost. There are many sources of information available online that go into a great deal of detail on what is required to operate a stable and reliable grid.

 

[Hay Dude]

Tesla has big plans on manufacturing solar panels in the USA, (considering locations in New York, Arizona, and Idaho). Goal of 100 GW production by 2028

Morgan Stanley Sees $190 Billion Upside in Tesla’s Solar Ambitions | OilPrice.com

Morgan Stanley says Tesla’s energy business could gain $20–$50 billion in value if Elon Musk succeeds in building 100 GW per year of U.S. solar cell manufacturing capacity.

oilprice.com

OK, but it’s still an “if” and it’s still “plans”. Nothing of great significance has been built or is producing the solar panels YET.

I have always been a “I see better than I read” type of person.

So far, most of the existing green energy infrastructure was made overseas. This does little to help American energy workers, except assist them in losing jobs.
It’s also bad for national security because we don’t have control over parts & technology to build or maintain them.

 

[Hay Dude]

That is a commonly made claim, but it is not true. The "renewables are cheaper" claim is based on a calculation called "LCOE" or levelized cost of energy. That is not a legitimate metric to use when you are talking about intermittent generation since it does not include significant costs that need to be considered when connecting to the grid. LCOE doesn't included the cost of intermittency, which is the cost of having to pay for another generation source to pick up the load when the intermittent generator fails to deliver. It also does not include the cost of extending the grid to the remote locations where solar farms and wind farms a typically located. If you are going to depend on batteries to smooth out the output variability of the intermittent generators, then the cost of those batteries would also have to be included in the cost of the renewables. FCOE or full cost of energy is a better metric for comparing generation sources. The wind and solar farms also do not supply the rotating inertia required to stabilize the voltage and frequency of the power on the grid unless they are set up with synchronous or "grid forming" inverters. Those types of inverters are typically not used due the higher cost. There are many sources of information available online that go into a great deal of detail on what is required to operate a stable and reliable grid.

My uncle was the CEO of a huge energy conglomerate in the early 2000’s. I remember when he first came on with the company, he was fresh out of college in the 70’s with his engineering degree and full of great enthusiasm about nuclear energy.

He made the claim to us that nuclear energy would be so abundant, that it might end up being “free”, supplied to customers at only the charge to build the plants.

Of course, this never came true, but he went on to become CEO of one of the largest utility companies in the country. He is still alive and is still revered by his former employees.

Why am I telling this story? Because these bright eyed professorial types here are promising the same things with green energy my uncle promised in the 1970’s about nuclear energy.

Be cautious of believing everything you read about green energy claims-especially those touting it will be cheaper. Energy grids are very complex and many of the green energy proponents do not include the “all-in” costs. It’s much much more than solar panels, batteries and some wire.

 

[WM75Guy]

Tesla has big plans on manufacturing solar panels in the USA, (considering locations in New York, Arizona, and Idaho). Goal of 100 GW production by 2028

Morgan Stanley Sees $190 Billion Upside in Tesla’s Solar Ambitions | OilPrice.com

Morgan Stanley says Tesla’s energy business could gain $20–$50 billion in value if Elon Musk succeeds in building 100 GW per year of U.S. solar cell manufacturing capacity.

oilprice.com

I will wait to see it. Tesla (Musk) always has big plans. There was supposed to be an affordable Tesla $25,000 BEV, a $40,000 Cybertruck, and Cybercabs in every city by now.

 

[Hay Dude]

wow. This why I try to number things out for you.

Condescending. I’m out. I don’t do the patronizing crap you do. Hope you get far in life patronizing others with condescending behavior. You seem like a really frustrated guy because the US isn’t adapting to green energy fast enough?
Good grief….

Let's get this a little more basic?

1. A typical house might have a 10000 Watt Solar PV system. That is typically enough to offset a house + EV charging usage. If they do it cheap, and keep it off the roof, that could cost around $10,000 ($1 per Watt), and give them electricity for about 2 to 3 cents per kWh "behind the meter."

We good on that?

.

2. To add a garage plug -- next to the Circuit Breaker panel -- costs about $60. $40 for the plug, and about $20 for the breaker. Typically we may through that in for "Free" as part of a Solar PV install.

Make sense? We can look up the parts on Lowes, or Home Depot, if that helps?

Do you really think the average person possesses the skills to install all that without the possibility of creating a fire hazard, or getting themselves hurt? You think everyone can wire together solar panels and wiring/plug to their EV? If you do, you live in your green fantasy land with a lot of ignorance.

I can sit here and tell you how “easy” farming is because it’s what I do for a living, then laugh at you as I watch you destroy expensive farm machinery in 5 minutes.

In terms of building and installing Solar PV? Certainly China fits that. China is leading the world in Solar PV. And China is obviously leading US. To be behind China means that US is slower, right? To be slow or slower is what Retarded means.

And China is a very hostile country. I don’t want my national energy security riding on panels, batteries, switches, wires, etc coming from China.
For as smug and arrogant as you are, You have trouble understanding a very basic supply chain issue of buying critical infrastructure from a both globally and strategically hostile nation.
Just because you think China is superior to the US doesn’t make it so and doesn’t make them a nation who doesn’t steal out patented products to the tune of billions lost per year.

All good by me. Probably a 1000? Dunno. Quit counting long ago. At least in the high 100s. Such a mix between designs, permitting, installs, commissioning . . . on and on.

But now I am a little concerned on this. Do you understand the Thermal Solar Collectors you did some decades ago . . . are an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THING than Solar Photo-Voltaic? Solar PV does not work based on heat nor hot water. Solar PV directly converts LIGHT, generally from the Sun into ELECTRICITY. Here is a quick backgrounder >>>

I don’t need a “quick backgrounder” You simply posted that, once again, to be condescending. You’re quite good at that. Good luck selling your dream of green energy. What green energy really needs to sell it to the people is someone who tells the whole truth about it, not just what a solar panel costs. It’s much more complicated.

Not really bashing US. My concern is that the present owner-operators are -- as noted above -- rather Retarded, and driving US further into ignorance and debt.

Do you not see US becoming more stupid -- like in a Stupor -- and further into debt? These are things of objective measure.

Yes of course you are. I see right through your thinly veiled attack on the US. I have no problem with criticizing the country, but calling us “retarded” then backpeddling on your comments is pretty revealing.

BTW: no other countries have deficit spending or have debt? Just the US? Really?

 

[MossRoad]

Have you ever extrapolated your storage fees over the years?

Asking for a friend……

Yep. Storage costs less than drinking.

 

[dodge man]

If all this solar and wind is really so cheap and great how come my electric bill has gone up in Illinois? We seem to be all in on solar and wind. The “facility “charge is what has driven up my bill. Figure tax and everything else it just under $0.20 a kilowatt hour.

 

[MossRoad]

If all this solar and wind is really so cheap and great how come my electric bill has gone up in Illinois? We seem to be all in on solar and wind. The “facility “charge is what has driven up my bill. Figure tax and everything else it just under $0.20 a kilowatt hour.

We can say the same thing here in northern Indiana with natural gas. The price increase is mostly due to delivery fees. They build/upgrade infrastructure and pass the costs on to the consumer.

Another reason to consider solar and geothermal.

 

[gsganzer]

We can say the same thing here in northern Indiana with natural gas. The price increase is mostly due to delivery fees. They build/upgrade infrastructure and pass the costs on to the consumer.

Another reason to consider solar and geothermal.

That's one of the reasons I think we need to tap the breaks on all the LNG export. I'm not against LNG export, but I think there needs to be a reasonable cap on the amount, so we don't drive up NG prices domestically. Recently, the lobbyists have worked to get the feds to raise the cap even higher.

I've always thought of energy (gas/oil) as a strategic resource that should be guarded and used wisely.

 

[jyoutz]

If all this solar and wind is really so cheap and great how come my electric bill has gone up in Illinois? We seem to be all in on solar and wind. The “facility “charge is what has driven up my bill. Figure tax and everything else it just under $0.20 a kilowatt

Perhaps your electric bill would have increased even more with a more costly power generation source? Inflation hits everything. No doubt that labor and supplies to generate power have increased for all power generating facilities.

 

[dodge man]

Perhaps your electric bill would have increased even more with a more costly power generation source? Inflation hits everything. No doubt that labor and supplies to generate power have increased for all power generating facilities.

Yeah that’s it, without the wind farms and solar my power bill would probably double.

 

[Hay Dude]

Yeah that’s it, without the wind farms and solar my power bill would probably double.

You can reason with someone when its’ their religion.

 

[MossRoad]

That's one of the reasons I think we need to tap the breaks on all the LNG export. I'm not against LNG export, but I think there needs to be a reasonable cap on the amount, so we don't drive up NG prices domestically. Recently, the lobbyists have worked to get the feds to raise the cap even higher.

I've always thought of energy (gas/oil) as a strategic resource that should be guarded and used wisely.

Good luck with that. People boast about American oil production, gas production, etc.... but it's all for sale on the open market. Something like 30% of all energy production(gas, oil, coal, etc.) in the US is exported.

 

[Eagle1]

Wonder if this will be considered...we are still learning and the science is not settled.
Greenland Ice Cap Vanished Just 7,000 Years Ago

AI Summary
A 2026 GreenDrill project study revealed that Greenland's northwestern Prudhoe Dome ice cap completely melted approximately 7,000 years ago. This indicates that a significant portion of the ice sheet is highly sensitive to modest warming, with the area experiencing temperatures 3–5°C warmer than today during the early Holocene.

Caused by????

 

[Hay Dude]

Wonder if this will be considered...we are still learning and the science is not settled.
Greenland Ice Cap Vanished Just 7,000 Years Ago

AI Summary
A 2026 GreenDrill project study revealed that Greenland's northwestern Prudhoe Dome ice cap completely melted approximately 7,000 years ago. This indicates that a significant portion of the ice sheet is highly sensitive to modest warming, with the area experiencing temperatures 3–5°C warmer than today during the early Holocene.

Caused by????

Cavemen “rolling coal”?

 

[Eagle1]

Cave men “rolling coal”?

Well it could be advanced "people" living long before we have a clue. You know the ones that build all the giant structures all over the world and flew Vimānas everywhere.

Of course since the science is settled we all ready have all the knowledge in the universe. Nothing new to discover.

 

[jyoutz]

You can reason with someone when its’ their religion.

No energy religion. I’m Catholic. It’s simply factual that the renewables are now cheaper. And ignoring inflation for all forms of power generation is nonsensical. It would be ridiculous to expect no cost increases for power when labor and supplies have increased across the board for everything.