Thoughts on mega wind and solar projects

[MossRoad]

So why do we have zoning? There are 4 layers correct? Residential, Commercial, industrial, and agricultural. If it didnt matter what we did on our properties. Then why have zoning.

Zoning is suppose to protect each individuals property. In many cases our homes and property are families biggest investments. thats true of the middle class. Rural communities are made up mostly of the middle class.

Like I stated earlier if the farmer doesn't want opposition. He could just buy all the other properties near his acreage to allow the company to build their power (industrial) plants.

IN our case the farmers were doing exactly as you speak of. Asking the county to save them b/c they need this. All the while other farmers are sitting on the other side of the room. Running a profitable farming business. Did they have to re-tool. Absolutely. There isn't many businesses that keep going without keeping up with the times.

I think projects like this have a place and its certainly not in a rural community. There is enough land in this country to use for these projects that dont effect people. Or installing solar on top of warehouses and so on. Other countries do that. Problem here is red tape and of course the fires that burnt down some warehouses from having solar on top.

Everyone has a hypnotically thought. Im guessing you wouldn't want to live by a sewage treatment plant? It would effect your property in unpleasant ways.

I wouldn't consider Brownsburg a rural community. It's a suburb of Indy. West of Brownsburg is open farmland. It really is a case of not in my back yard.

 

[gsganzer]

I was recently in a similar position on a place in Oklahoma. We had a contract on a place that had a solar farm going in nearby. In my research, the project was originally proposed as a wind farm, but it faced steep opposition, as wind has been falling out of favor in OK and many places. It was then converted to a solar farm instead.

In regards to the property we were interested in, I started researching the scope of the solar project, which isn't easy to do. As you've found, much of the planning is deliberately done out of the public eye. Turns out, we would have had some buffer and would not see it directly (yet), but it would have been on 3 sides of us. I fear it's one of those things that once they get their feet in the door, there ends up being project expansions and new phases added. I couldn't risk it and backed out of the deal. Also, like you've found, they don't talk about the impact on real estate values and deliberately post misleading studies suggesting there is no impact. There's no doubt it adversely impacts values. Nobody wants to move to a rural area, expecting fields of crops and livestock and drive through a solar farm and all its infrastructure instead.

We ended up finding a place in a county that has passed ordinances against wind farms. In addition, it's an area that understands the value of its rural uniqueness and solar would also be out of favor.

However, with rural property, you're in a bit of a conundrum. The developers look for places that are economically poor, such as the area we looked at in OK. Driving around that area, we saw plenty of unkept properties and feral land with little to no farming or ranching. Who can blame an economically poor landowner when they can make money of their property, without ever lifting a finger?

I think that's one of the keys when looking at property. You need to get an understanding of the demographics and economic metrics of the area. Our new place is re-inventing itself as a "rural bedroom community" for retirees wanting some space for upscale retirement homes/estates. With that being said, I can also see our county taking much stricter action and inspections on folks claiming agricultural exemptions.

 

[dodge man]

The wind farm near here I know paid nearby farms that didn’t have a turbine a “wind easement “ or similar term. Mainly to give them money to not object to it. I know the school district got a bunch of tax money but guess what, they cut state aid also. This put them back to square one. I met some of the higher ups in the company and they seemed to genuinely want to build a good project and work with the locals. Not that it matters to my opinion on wind farms but I truly learned a lot in my part in building them and enjoyed the project.

I also worked on solar projects, maybe 20 of them or more but all the surveying was done ahead of time and I had no part in building them. I believe several got built.

 

[mark in portugal]

We have new ones going up every week around me; last year, the power grid of Spain / Portugal went down due to overvoltage as too many small producers pumped juice in at the same time.
Apparently, this is the first time this has ever happened anywhere. Anyway, the engineers will fix it. We need a better link with France so we can feed excess power north.

The panels are crazy cheap now; the structure to hold them up costs as much as the panels now I think. They don't even bother to make them rotate, it's cheaper to just add more panels.

Inverter and battery prices (for home use) are dropping fast too.

 

[ponytug]

It hasn't been cost effective here to add tracking to systems here for years. I think that having better demand data helps choose a winter or summer or maximum production angle for a given site, and power needs.

All the best, Peter

 

[edgarrian]

I wouldn't consider Brownsburg a rural community. It's a suburb of Indy. West of Brownsburg is open farmland. It really is a case of not in my back yard.

Well there will always be a county willing to take on the project and approve it. Im happy to live in a county that doesn't. We all have "not in my backyard". It just has to be something you wouldn't approve of. I understand where you are coming from but I would think you could understand why people dont want them.

We lived in brownsburg by connection point. Obviously brownsburg is a good sized area. The school is 5A correct? But just as we have a small town (crawfordsville) in Montgomery County. I would still consider the rural area to be just that. A rural area.

Interestingly enough other countries are using warehouse, manufacturing buildings and other large buildings to install their solar. It makes more sense than to just stick them in a farmers field.

 

[edgarrian]

I was recently in a similar position on a place in Oklahoma. We had a contract on a place that had a solar farm going in nearby. In my research, the project was originally proposed as a wind farm, but it faced steep opposition, as wind has been falling out of favor in OK and many places. It was then converted to a solar farm instead.

In regards to the property we were interested in, I started researching the scope of the solar project, which isn't easy to do. As you've found, much of the planning is deliberately done out of the public eye. Turns out, we would have had some buffer and would not see it directly (yet), but it would have been on 3 sides of us. I fear it's one of those things that once they get their feet in the door, there ends up being project expansions and new phases added. I couldn't risk it and backed out of the deal. Also, like you've found, they don't talk about the impact on real estate values and deliberately post misleading studies suggesting there is no impact. There's no doubt it adversely impacts values. Nobody wants to move to a rural area, expecting fields of crops and livestock and drive through a solar farm and all its infrastructure instead.

We ended up finding a place in a county that has passed ordinances against wind farms. In addition, it's an area that understands the value of its rural uniqueness and solar would also be out of favor.

However, with rural property, you're in a bit of a conundrum. The developers look for places that are economically poor, such as the area we looked at in OK. Driving around that area, we saw plenty of unkept properties and feral land with little to no farming or ranching. Who can blame an economically poor landowner when they can make money of their property, without ever lifting a finger?

I think that's one of the keys when looking at property. You need to get an understanding of the demographics and economic metrics of the area. Our new place is re-inventing itself as a "rural bedroom community" for retirees wanting some space for upscale retirement homes/estates. With that being said, I can also see our county taking much stricter action and inspections on folks claiming agricultural exemptions.

You are exactly right. its interesting to see how these developers here in indiana say it will revitalize the area and it hasn't yet. Tipton County being the good example. The money has ran dry. The population stayed stagnant. New business did not come in.

I understand why landowners would be very tempted to do it. They might be older with the younger generation having zero interest in farming. So what would be the best thing to do. Lease the land.

As you have mentioned your rural area is re-inventing itself. Just as so many farmers have done in this area. They have turned to beef tallow and the many products you can make from it. To offering butchering services. As well as markets. There really is opportunity out there for a farmer to make more. It just requires a will to do it.

If you do deep dive into what farmers get for subsidies. Its extreme. Crop insurance is subsidized and in some cases out right paid for by the tax payer. Assessment values on the land are half of a residential land. the 38 acres is assessed less than my 8 acres of woods. But when the farmer sells it. He wants 10-15k an acre. There are several other tax breaks.

 

[edgarrian]

The wind farm near here I know paid nearby farms that didn’t have a turbine a “wind easement “ or similar term. Mainly to give them money to not object to it. I know the school district got a bunch of tax money but guess what, they cut state aid also. This put them back to square one. I met some of the higher ups in the company and they seemed to genuinely want to build a good project and work with the locals. Not that it matters to my opinion on wind farms but I truly learned a lot in my part in building them and enjoyed the project.

I also worked on solar projects, maybe 20 of them or more but all the surveying was done ahead of time and I had no part in building them. I believe several got built.

That was a selling point in several wind farm developments. Even after they are approved in some cases the squeaky wheel will get greased with some sort of eye sore payment. Basically its gag order for 1500 a year or something

 

[lman]

So if it's their business, why are you butting in to it? Hmmmm?

That's the question people ask when someone is all for individual property rights and no government interference, I hate lawyers, etc.. until what goes on at that property negatively affects them. Then government should save them, they hire lawyers themselves, and try and dictate what goes on on someone else's property.

It's massively hypocritical.

It's their neighbor's business when they start driving the electric bills up and draining the water table.

 

[edgarrian]

We have new ones going up every week around me; last year, the power grid of Spain / Portugal went down due to overvoltage as too many small producers pumped juice in at the same time.
Apparently, this is the first time this has ever happened anywhere. Anyway, the engineers will fix it. We need a better link with France so we can feed excess power north.

The panels are crazy cheap now; the structure to hold them up costs as much as the panels now I think. They don't even bother to make them rotate, it's cheaper to just add more panels.

Inverter and battery prices (for home use) are dropping fast too.

I believe solar in those countries are far cheaper than here in the states. Is that true. I see it mentioned a lot on linkdyn.

 

[rontaki]

For better or worse, the haze from coal burning reflects some of the slight that would have reached the ground, so provides some cooling effect.

 

[paulsharvey]

Again... we have multiple 640 acre ish solar farms around. When construction is ongoing, its a major earth moving project, but they use silt fence, water trucks, ect, BMPs to control sediment. There is some, but its less than a disc'd 640 acres. Once built, it very un-intrustive. They will nearly aways have a chain link fence, generally with privacy bush plantings to screen the view.

Im not anti farm, at all, but a solar farm, once built, has Way less traffic, equipment, dust, noise, ect than a working farm.

With that said, yeah, maybe you dont want to be looking right at it on the back porch, but its a passive thing. Maintenance is mowing, selective spot spraying, and annual pressure washing, thats it. It just sits there.

You could very easily be 200-500 ft away from one, and never know it was there.

 

[gsganzer]

A sound energy policy is like a 3-legged stool. You need cost, reliability and sustainability. You can argue that there's a 4th leg, national security. None of the energy types provide all 3, but together they provide all 4. I'm not against any type of energy, if it's being soundly employed and not force fed through misguided policy, usually pushed by those who pockets its lining.

When I picked my retirement house, I looked for energy diversity. I have a 500 gallon propane tank for water heater, gas fireplaces and gas stovetop and clothes dryer. Also, a whole house generator that runs off the same tank. Electric heat pump for the A/C and ovens, electric aux heaters on the heat pumps. If I had a choice, I would have had some wood heat somewhere in the mix.

I'm reminded of the 2021 big freeze in TX, which is an energy diverse state. It was pandemonium with over 200 people dead after just 4 days of power outages. Imagine that same scenario happening simultaneously in the dead of winter in New York, Chicago, Detroit, Boston, all states that are turning their backs on energy diversity and are pushing 100% electric. Those people would be eating one another within the first few days.

 

[lman]

For better or worse, the haze from coal burning reflects some of the slight that would have reached the ground, so provides some cooling effect.

What happened to global warming? I know a few people around here that would appreciate some warming anytime now.

 

[paulsharvey]

Maybe they dont have blueberry farms in the mid west? I like blueberries, I grow some, i eat them, i support growing them, and I dont "mind" the half hour cannon fire, to keep birds away, but thats more intrusive than solar. Let's replace that solar farm next door with a blue berry farm, and after 3 months of listening to a dozen propane cannons, you might start wishing for solar

Potatoes/cabbage; not against either, but dust, and stink of rejected loads, piled in a corner, 80 tons of potatoes rotting or cabbage rotting away, is less than pleasant .

Chicken houses... I wouldnt want to be even 500ft down stream from the exhaust fans...

Cattle, they are pretty passive, im sure they annoy some folks

Not in a grain farming area, but im sure thats dusty, the planes dropping fungicide, traffic, ect.

Every land use has its ups and downs; solar was its down sides, but nothing extreme. After its built, it really does just sit there. Completely harmless.

Wind, no wind farms here. So, I can't comment.

Even pine plantations have down sides

 

[rontaki]

Maybe they dont have blueberry farms in the mid west? I like blueberries, I grow some, i eat them, i support growing them, and I dont "mind" the half hour cannon fire, to keep birds away, but thats more intrusive than solar. Let's replace that solar farm next door with a blue berry farm, and after 3 months of listening to a dozen propane cannons, you might start wishing for solar
>> snip snip<<

There are automated drones available to scare birds away. I do not have data on which method is more expensive or effective.

 

[MossRoad]

It hasn't been cost effective here to add tracking to systems here for years. I think that having better demand data helps choose a winter or summer or maximum production angle for a given site, and power needs.

All the best, Peter

These two near us both have tracking. Smaller one to the east and larger one to the west. Both under 5 years old.

The big one to the west is the one I've mentioned has a guy grazing sheep in the warmer months.

East


West

 

[MossRoad]

...Assessment values on the land are half of a residential land. ...

Not sure if I'm understanding...

We're taxed at 1% residential first home, 2% ag land and other residential property, 3% other.

 

[gsganzer]

Maybe they dont have blueberry farms in the mid west? I like blueberries, I grow some, i eat them, i support growing them, and I dont "mind" the half hour cannon fire, to keep birds away, but thats more intrusive than solar. Let's replace that solar farm next door with a blue berry farm, and after 3 months of listening to a dozen propane cannons, you might start wishing for solar

Potatoes/cabbage; not against either, but dust, and stink of rejected loads, piled in a corner, 80 tons of potatoes rotting or cabbage rotting away, is less than pleasant .

Chicken houses... I wouldnt want to be even 500ft down stream from the exhaust fans...

Cattle, they are pretty passive, im sure they annoy some folks

Not in a grain farming area, but im sure thats dusty, the planes dropping fungicide, traffic, ect.

Every land use has its ups and downs; solar was its down sides, but nothing extreme. After its built, it really does just sit there. Completely harmless.

Wind, no wind farms here. So, I can't comment.

Even pine plantations have down sides

Paul, you're absolutely correct. I'm in a rural area and I often hear folks shooting or target practice. Being a partaker of those pastime's, I find myself wondering what caliber or what game, so it doesn't bother me.

When I was looking at a piece of property and was looking at the possibility of 2500 acres of solar nearby, it made me look at the socioeconomics of the area I was considering moving too. I realized the area was more economically depressed than I realized and they were ripe for development of various projects that fit the "NIMBY" of more affluent areas. It's just the nature of rural living and economics. Those projects have to be built somewhere. Fortunately, I have enough financial means to choose a place elsewhere.

I do agree that a solar farm could be the least intrusive of a myriad of other options.

 

[MossRoad]

It's their neighbor's business when they start driving the electric bills up and draining the water table.

I've never seen a wind farm or solar farm raise electric bills or drain a water table.

The data farms by us have stipulations that they can't cause the electric rates to rise and they're closed loop on the cooling water. But we'll see how that goes as even though they're closed loop, they have permit to draw massive amounts. They say they'll only use that amount a few days a year. Time will tell.