The guy that put the engine internals together says "The rings are not seated yet end the smoking is normal. Just give it a couple hours of work"

[Rocket Surgeon]

It sounds like one of the rings is either broken or wasn't installed at all.

 

[sd455dan]

All I can say to that is most shops want the oversize pistons ON Hand Before they bore a block, that way they can final hone to put it on the money spec wise as far as piston to wall clearance.
. So the block was bored .040 over and then a set of .040 pistons in a kit was sourced?

 

[Ronald G]

He installed the oil scraper ring upside down or failed to install the valve seals.
Check the crankcase breather to see if its plugged, the head could have been warped and the oil is leaking from the oil passage to one of the cylinders.
The head bolt holes may not have been cleaned out properly and the head bolts bottomed out not allowing the head to seal.
I am a retired automotive machinist and there definitely is something wrong.
Always use a thermostat, it doesn't matter if you are plowing fields in hell.
A thermostat will allow the water to slow down and pull heat from the engine.
Do not put anything over the radiator unless it's twenty below zero.
I have built locomotive engines to antique hit and miss engines and none of them smoked even for a minute.

Do you ever see a new tractor smoke.?
NO!
GOOD LUCK, YOU ARE GOING TO NEED IT.
Please install a thermostat, the people who designed those engines know what they are doing.
Ron

 

[sportscarclinic]

I gotta disagree unless I misunderstand. But that is exactly what I have always done....

Drop off a scored crank.....I have no idea if it needs .005, .010, .020, etc.....I dont wanna jump right to .020 if .010 will clean it up. But also dont wanna say .010 if it leaves scoring.

Same for cylinder walls, head and block deck.

Take just what it needs to clean up.....then next common increment for parts. (IE....takes 0.017 to clean cylinder.....go .020 over).

Don't order rotating assembly parts til after machine work is done so I know what size (over/under) to order parts

Clearly you provide a decent amount of information to the shop, and they probably know you well enough to figure out what you'll expect--and pay for.

The OP admits he knows very little about engine building. I doubt he owns a set of micrometers and snap gauges or a bore scope, and the journal measurement on a crank grind and cylinder bore/hone would always be left to the shop doing the work, even if he did.

The point I was making is simply that time is money in a busy shop--and, of course, if they ain't busy, you don't want 'em working on your gear. A non-professional without an on-going relationship can't just drop off a short block with a damaged crank and rod, and simply expect the shop to clean it up, do a thorough inspection, and measure critical components for wear, cylinder bores, lifter bores, etc., etc. That process is time-consuming, and it's definitely NOT going to be undertaken unless there's an agreement stipulating payment for the cleaning/inspecting/measuring regardless of whether any suggested repair work is subsequently authorized. I don't see any evidence in the narrative that the OP did any of this.

More likely the shop ticket said, "remove and grind crank undersize, and whatever else it needs." Which is interpreted by the guys on the floor as grind the crank and ship it.

 

[dpgood1]

Does the tractor start easily or does it have to crank a bit to start? One possibility is that the rings are upside down. Others have mentioned doing a compression and leak-down test. Unless you do those, you are looking at tearing down to find the problem. The one person that mentioned the oil filter might have an easy fix.

 

[sportscarclinic]

Could be upside down oil control rings, yes. Or, it could be the excessive clearance on the rods and/or mains is leaking and slinging so much oil no scraper ring could control it, upside down or not. And/or the bores are oval... Add these to the list of a dozen other possibilities that you'll never verify, unless you pull it apart.

Best fix here is probably a six-pack of Motor Honey and a "For Sale" sign. Unless they ask, don't even mention the 'rebuild'.

 

[trmechapt]

That picture was before I sent the block out.

Sorry I should have included that information from the beginning.
-Bored 040 over
-Machined Crank
-New Pistons all
-New Rods all (one was bent)
-New Rings
-New Injectors
-New Valves
-New Guides
-New Oil Pump
-New Cam Bearings
-Lifters looked perfect just cleaned
-Push rods checked and re-used
-New Idler timing Gear



I dealt with the machine shop dropped and picked up. The machine shop got the Reliant rebuild kit and did the cam bearings, the rings were installed when I got the pistons in the boxes. They said everything was correct and ready for assembly. I have done mechanical work since I can remember and do pretty well on any project BUT, I wanted an experience builder to actually put it together. I have put engines together but I am NOT "The Engine Guy"

The guy that put the internals together came to my shop with his father and put it together. I had everything cleaned, labeled, and laid out on a table like a surgery before the doctor gets there. I watched them and waited on his every request (tools, bolts, supplies...etc). He seemed to know what he was doing. No big red flags on the build.

The owner had it at a repair shop for 3 months. It is a dirty mess to say the least with unfinished tractors sitting everywhere. The shop was probably good 20 years ago. The owner is in his 80's now. . It was never going to get done. The owner wants it done completely and correct. I volunteered to take the project. (not my best decision ever...lol) The owner is a friend of mine with no engine experience and was overwhelmed. He plans on keeping for the long haul and using it on his ranch for baling, and general work after adding a loader.

Thanks for your help

The Ford tractor rings are very hard. You MUST put a thermostat in it and run it hard for a while after it warms up fully. I used to Dyno engines at the dealer I worked at years ago. I think it was no load for 30, 25% load for 30, 50% load for 30 minutes 75% for 30. I am not sure on the time but it took 2.5 hours. 100% of the rated HP for 10 minutes, then no load for 10 or so minutes, then back to 100% for 10 more. In other words it has to be worked hard for a little bit to seat the rings and it has to be operating temperature which is about 180 - 190 degrees

 

[trmechapt]

Doesn't sound right to me, but I've never done it myself. Just watched videos of rebuilt other engines are they are looking for at least 40psi of oil at cranking speed before they'll turn the fuel on and try to start it.

With new bearings, machined crank and new oil pump, it should have around 100 psi of pressure. 15W/40 oil? Sounds like something was left out. Maybe half of the bearing? I saw that in a new short block from Ford, or an oil gallery plug?

 

[trmechapt]

The Oil is great until it gets up to operating Temperature. 60psi at cold start up then 45psi after it is warms to 140F as long as the RPMs above 1200. Then it gets weird....oil pressure drops radically below 1000 rpm to below 16psi at 800rpms (per low pressure alarm I added to build) the gage coincides to around 10psi. Thanks for your time.

Check the oil pump pressure relief valve, make sure it’s not stuck open or missing

 

[Flad]

Some engines have an oil pressure by pass valve built in to the filter housing these are known to have the springs weaken or the valve seats worn or filthy , just check where your after market guage is fitted, it could be on the by pass of this valve giving you a low reading if you are running an oil cooler these are some times plumbed in to the by pass side low pressure side of the filter housings with gauges fitted to them.
Check the colour of your I am Assuming fresh oil if it's Realy black in a newly rebuilt engine, sounds like broken rings, I HAD A PROBLEM on a engine I rebuilt ,the rings that were fitted to the piston were infact the wrong size with a ring gap of over 6mm, Took it for granted every thing was as it should be, Needless to say these pistons and rings were Chinese Generic after market type , The over sized pistons were spot on, they just fitted the wrong sized rings to the Pistons, that was on a Honda engine, 90MM Bore with rings for an 88MM Bore. A compression test will find any problems with your rings.

 

[mm lindquist]

I purchased a kubota 3830 in 2007. The mechanic from kubota told me to start the tractor let it idle for one minute then take it to 1300 rpms for the warm up. He said the oil pressure is too low below a thousand rpms. I've overhauled hundreds of refrigeration compressors with insert bearings. The standard was always 10 psi for every 1000 rpm for that type of bearing.on a piston type engine the only time I experienced the problem your describing was using Chrome moly rings and it did stop using oil after a while. We bought a 1994 carry. It smoked from day one. At 40000 miles it stopped and I gave the car away at 350 thousand miles and it still didn't use oil between changes. I would use the tractor. If there is a problem it will get worse not better. It sounds like your mechanic knew what he was doing other than riding the brakes.

 

[sportscarclinic]

90 Comments and counting... Looks like we're creating a nice compendium of all the reasons why an engine will smoke and have low oil pressure.

Did anyone mention on the oil pressure front mention worn out lifter bores yet?
On the smoke side, what about a sticking enrichment solenoid on the injection pump?

 

[jimux]

This is a great thread.

Absolutely…great hearing so many pro players and group thinking!

 

[sd455dan]

It sounds like one of the rings is either broken or wasn't installed at all.

90 Comments and counting... Looks like we're creating a nice compendium of all the reasons why an engine will smoke and have low oil pressure.

Did anyone mention on the oil pressure front mention worn out lifter bores yet?
On the smoke side, what about a sticking enrichment solenoid on the injection pump?

A stuck enrichment would have the exhaust smell of unburned diesel, Not burned engine Oil.

The exhaust smoke Has been stated as burning of engine oil not incomplete combustion of diesel fuel
after asking the OP.

 

[sportscarclinic]

A stuck enrichment would have the exhaust smell of unburned diesel, Not burned engine Oil.

The exhaust smoke Has been stated as burning of engine oil not incomplete combustion of diesel fuel
after asking the OP.

Got it, I missed that. So add this possibility to the list of "confirmed as *not* the reason for the smoke in this instance". Now just need to 'exclude' 50 more.

 

[Dman1981]

I have overhauled literally thousands of engines never had one belch oil out exhaust Perkins cat Cummins ford kubota duetz guy either soaked them in engine oil which I never do or he put it together with the block looking like in picture then what you have is failure to communicate

 

[LouNY]

Quite a bunch of noise on this thread.

One, just run it and work it long enough to see what it is going to do.
get it up to temp (with a thermostat installed) and put a load on it.

Two, don't idle the engine at low rpms for now, keep it up at 1100-1200 rpm.

Three, is it doesn't clear and run right after half an hour or so being worked then it's time to start trouble shooting.

Start with a compression check and then a leakdown test.
After getting those results you can then decide what needs to be torn down and checked.
Without them you are peeing into the wind.

The smoke could oil and it could be fuel,
fuel could be injectors or timing.

10 psi oil pressure on a hot engine at very low rpm may be just fine,
that is one reason many manufactures went with lights instead of gauges.
Many low oil pressure switches actually activate in the 5-7 psi range.

 

[sportscarclinic]

Is there any way to do create a poll on this forum thread? At some point maybe we'll get an actual answer from the OP. If we do, it'd be interesting to see whether a majority opinion was correct.

I'll cast my vote for wrong size bearing shells installed, allowing excessive oil to be slung onto cylinder walls, overloading oil control rings.

 

[etpm]

I always thought that diesel engines needed higher oil pressure but I don't know just how much higher. I was shocked that my 1992 Toyota V6 pickup is supposed to have only 6 psi oil pressure at idle when warm. 10 psi at idle for a diesel seems in line, but I don't know. What do typical small diesel engines run?
Eric

 

[rocco611]

10 psi per 1000 rpm is a general guideline I heard a lot .I have always considered that an oversimplification. Most engine manufacturers have published standards for oil pressure. A lot of has to do with size or oil passages design of the oiling system and volume of oil displaced by the pump. My Harley twin cam has single digit oil pressure at idle, low restriction oil filter and just enough volume to keep the top end lubricated. that is normal for a twin cam. What's normal for one engine isn't necessarily acceptable for another. your engine should have more pressure at warm idle. The low pressure alarm is also letting you know its not normal.