That Never Ending T&T Path!

Henro · Oct 18, 2004

Well, I had hoped to be reporting success long before now...

And I had hesitated to say anything about the poor permormance of Hydraulichosefittings.com...

But I must tell you that I am a bit ticked about being charged in full for the order I place on 28 September, and I still have not received half of it, which is the 17 hoses I ordered, even though they charged my credit card for the full order back on the 28 of last month. Today is October 18, 7:30 pm...

Who knows what happeded. I got the fittings I ordered after a week or so...but no hoses. During the second week I called, emailed, and finially faxed them. Almost a week after I started trying to contact them, I did get a call back. That was about ten days ago. Apparently, the guy running the show had a family emergency of some kind and had to leave the state, and put a "young guy in charge that dropped the ball."

Hey, I can live with that. The problem was that the fittings on the end of the hoses I ordered were 90 degree fittings at both ends. (I was trying to do the job with a minimum of fittings). But if you do this, you need to specify the angular relationship between the two fittings. Otherwise you can get some twisting when you hook up which is undesirable. I'm cool with that reason.

So I do get a call back from them about 10 days ago now, and I call back the next day and actually get a PERSON. I studder and can hardly speak...get past that and understand the reasons for the delay...don't complain about it...and expect the hoses will be shipped and I should receive them in 5 to 7 days (by my estimate). Well now ten days has past and no hoses. I called and left a message last Friday EARLY and no response.

I am an easy going guy but at this point I am starting to fell a bit pi$$ed to put it bluntly.

After this I will order from another on line hydraulic supplier but don't want to give the name here for fear it would sound like an advertisement or something. They are in my state but I would rather pay the sales tax than have to deal with this BS I am dealing with now.

I think we need a /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif face about ten times as large as this one for special occasions... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Hydraulichosefittings.com gets a big thumbs down from this customer. Hope this post is not out of line but I REALLY did not want to say anything negative about them to this point. EVEN THOUGH I WAS GETTING CONCERNED AT WEEK TWO WHEN I COULD GET NO RESPONSE TO EMAIL, TELEPHONE OR FAX.

For all I know my hoses may arrive tomorrow. But that will not change anything from my perspective.

I know these people have done well and have given good service to others here at TBN. My experience may be unique. But bad service is bad service.

I suppose I am really just disappointed more than anything.

It hurts when you put your trust into a vendor and he lets you down... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Sorry for the rant...take it for what it is worth, and no more. I may just be the one that fell through the crack twice. I do feel that I have given these guys a real chance to satisfy me. I mean all I want is my hoses. They should not have charged me for them three weeks ago if they did not ship them...They should answer phone messages...and so on...

Hope to have an update soon!

Guess I got carried away...sorry... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

KennyV,

I will post pictures. My goal though, was not to gain extreem angles, but rather to have equal angles and a way to know for pretty certain when the implement on the back was level with respect to the tractor axle...

Even more, I look forward to reporting whether having float on a tilt cylinder makes any difference when plowing snow on complex angles. I think it will, but the proof is in the pudding... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Madreff,

I have been spending some hours using my backhoe and all I can report so far is that the placement of the control valve works reall well when both using the tractor normally, and when using the backhoe. From what I can see I will be VERY satisfied with this location, but time will tell. Things might change a little when the hoses (if they ever come) are on the valve.

Sneaky Peat,

I can't wait either...and I do have faith the hoses will arrive eventually...sooner would be better though...

Pineridge,

The placement of the control valve has to please my body and my arm. All I know at the moment is that it pleases my body and my head, as it is totally out of the way when using both the tractor with the backhoe off, and the backhoe with the tractor attached... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Time will tell...and hopefull I will be able to give an unbiased opinion after I get the T&T working...

Cliff, I hope to soon post a happy ending... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bmac,

B is for Bill and Mac is for "the first three letters of my last name..." /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif You arn't me on a different plane, are you??? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Thanks for your kind words. W_Harv and I may be related...He would be the vine and I would be a pee in a pod somewhere down by the ground... Certain there is no comparison...W_Harv rules... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cacinok,

I have a piece of thin rubber sheet, about 1/16 inch thick which I will probably use...but I will keep you thougts in the back of my mind just in case...

Well the tears are shed. I guess I will go back into the waiting mode, and also try the email, phone and fax route one more time tomorrow and see what turns up. I will be sure to report back. I hope I don't sound like I am trying to bad mouth these guys at HHF.com. That is not my intention as I know they are advertisers here and have satisfied a lot of TBN memebers. I am just reporting what has happended in MY case...

More later once my hoses have arrived...

Cliff_Johns · Oct 18, 2004

As the yung'uns say, bummer dude.
Cliff

MadReferee · Oct 18, 2004

( The problem was that the fittings on the end of the hoses I ordered were 90 degree fittings at both ends. (I was trying to do the job with a minimum of fittings). But if you do this, you need to specify the angular relationship between the two fittings. Otherwise you can get some twisting when you hook up which is undesirable. I'm cool with that reason.)

You went with JIC fittings, right? I went totally with NPT where I could get a 90 degree swivel connector which eliminates the angular problem. I have never seen a JIC swivel connector. It's all in the swivel.

Sorry about your problems with hydraulichosefitings. I have used them on several occasions and was totally pleased with the price and promptness of the service.

Your mileage may vary, and I guess it did. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

rswyan · Oct 19, 2004

( And I had hesitated to say anything about the poor permormance of Hydraulichosefittings.com... )

I placed a couple of orders with them, first about a month or so ago. Wanted to modify my order within 15 minutes of placing it - no way to do it from their website so I emailed them (several times actually), never received a reply or acknowledgement (or a modified order.) Don't have the time to waste playing phone tag - if a company in this day and age can't use the internet and email I generally avoid dealing with them.

Also no way to check the actual status of an order or to get a tracking number either. To their credit my order was shipped promptly and was complete.

I have mostly ordered my hydraulic fittings from Surplus Center who I find to be fast, efficient, and price competitive for the most part. Used hydraulichosefittings.com for some stuff SC didn't have.

I've also found a local supplier that carries a large inventory of fittings and hose and thus far has very reasonable prices.

liledoun · Oct 19, 2004

I didn't have any problem with Hydraulichosefitting when I built my TopNTilt for my JD 4300.
Reference discussion:
My homemade TopNTilt/4th&5th control valve

Your setup looks good.

JF

firel7 · Oct 22, 2004

Ok, This is my first post to this wonderful forum. I have been lurking and doing a ton of reading to learn all I can, and I must say I have already learned more than I could have ever imagined. I have a few questions as I am cosidering adding top and tilt to my tractor. First I like the way henro has gone about it with his giving the ease of leveling and no loss of capacity. The first question is why didnt you use the 2 x 4in stroke cylinder you originally wanted as it appears they have them on prince direct in discounted cylinders? Second why did you make your own brackets for sidelink instead of just welding on kubota brackets from your adjustable and fixed side linkages, or buy new replacement parts for them as they are not that expensive. Just seeing if there was a length issue. Third, I am contemplating the possibility of upsizing to a 4310 or new version or a tc 33da, and I was wondering if this settup would match the sizes of the cylinders needed to fit those models of tractors, even if ends had to be remodified. Lastly what type of hydraulic fittings would be best recommended espescially considering the re adaptation for a new tractor, Jic, O-ring boss, npt etc. I thank any and all in advance for your help!!!

Henro · Oct 22, 2004

firel7

I'll try to answer your questions...but first let me say I still have gotten no response from Hydraulichosefittings.com.

Now no reply to me phone messages OR to my fax...I am a little bummed out to say the least. The charged my credit card over $500 and I only got half (or maybe less of what I ordered)...

Cylinder choice: First the Prince web side was not up to date and the guy I talked to there offered the larger diameter cylinder as an available alternative. I had called shortly after Prince changed their marketing strategy, and quit selling cylinders directly to the public at a good discount. Buying direct from Prince now is not worth the effort. BUT at that time, surplus was still a cost effective option.

I understand from Junkman's posts now that they do not sell surplus cylinders or control valves to the public any more either. I don't know this to be the case for sure, but it sounds like it is.

I made my own ends for the tilt cylinders because I wanted to I suppose. Also I did not want to distroy the original equipment...if you price the adjustable lift rod for a Kubota, you will not want to cut it up either! The fixed side is not that expensive, but still more expensive than just making them yourself and getting in a little welding practice...I don't think there is a length issue and believe that using stock parts would work just fine if you are willing to spend what they cost.

As for what size cylinders to use on a larger tractor, I don't know for sure. I think a 2.5 inch top link cylinder may be suitable for a TC33 or 4310.

From what I have read NPTF (F=fuel) is the least desirable of fittings for hydraulic systems, although they are very common. I tried to avoid them as much as possible, and in doing so I may have caused myself problems with my hose order...don't know for sure, and don't think it should have been a problem, but at this point I am grasping at straws to figure out what went wrong with my order... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Hope this helps a little... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

firel7 · Oct 22, 2004

Thank you Henro for your rapid response. You answered my questions fine. Helped clear it up a bit for me, now I can make my decision about how I am going to go, I am going to try Prince surplus once though. Nothing lost in trying /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif As for your fittings I believe there are a lot of people waiting as patiently as you are, I know I am. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I cant wait to see pictures of it in full operation. And I know where to avoid at this time. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif Wish you the best with your order and pulling for you at the same time.

MadReferee · Oct 23, 2004

( From what I have read NPTF (F=fuel) is the least desirable of fittings for hydraulic systems, although they are very common. I tried to avoid them as much as possible, and in doing so I may have caused myself problems with my hose order...don't know for sure, and don't think it should have been a problem, but at this point I am grasping at straws to figure out what went wrong with my order.)

NPTF or Dryseal fittings rely on the crush or deformation of the threads to make a seal. They are not appropriate for applications where you must screw/unscrew the fittings. However, common practice is to use these fittings with teflon pipe sealant. The fittings are typically used where flexibility in plumbing (both in space and configuraion) is required. When properly installed they are leak free and can be used in high pressure hydraulic applications.

The 37 deg JIC fittings require no thread sealant and can be removed and replaced with no adverse effects. However, they are sometimes difficult to work with as the "swivel" function is not normally found on these type of connectors. This means that hoses must have the fittings installed at the appropriate circular angle and plumbing runs must be figured much more exact.

In the real world you see a mixture of JIC and NPT fittings for a given application. Just look at your tractor for a good example of this. As long as the mating portions of the fittings are compatible and the proper sealing techniques are used there will be no problems.

Henro, once again you have over analyzed the project requirements, this time for the hose and valve fittings.. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

If you got questions or need my help you know how to get a hold of me.

KirkMcD · Oct 23, 2004

( firel7

I'll try to answer your questions...but first let me say I still have gotten no response from Hydraulichosefittings.com.

Now no reply to me phone messages OR to my fax...I am a little bummed out to say the least. The charged my credit card over $500 and I only got half (or maybe less of what I ordered)...

)

As an aside, you have 60 days to dispute the full charge with your credit card company. Don't put it off too long.

rswyan · Oct 23, 2004

( From what I have read NPTF (F=fuel) )

I had assumed that NPTF stood for National Pipe Thread (Female) and that there was a corresponding NPTM - National Pipe Thread (Male) depending on the type of fitting - is this incorrect ?

MadReferee · Oct 23, 2004

( I had assumed that NPTF stood for National Pipe Thread (Female) and that there was a corresponding NPTM - National Pipe Thread (Male) depending on the type of fitting - is this incorrect ?)

NPTF
This is a dryseal thread; the National pipe tapered thread for fuels. This is used for both male and female ends. Several trade associations no longer recommend this thread connection for use with hydraulics but it is still widely used and fittings are easy to obtain and connection combinations cover the entire spectrum of types.

The NPTF male will mate with the NPTF, NPSF, or NPSM female.

The NPTF male has tapered threads and a 30° inverted seat. The NPTF female has tapered threads and no seat. The seal takes place by deformation of the threads. The NPSM female has straight threads and a 30° inverted seat. The seal takes place on the 30° seat.

The NPTF connector is similar to, but not interchangeable with, the BSPT connector. The thread pitch is different in most sizes. Also, the thread angle is 60° instead of the 55° angle found on BSPT threads.

NPSF
The National pipe straight thread for fuels. This is sometimes used for female ends and properly mates with the NPTF male end. However, the SAE recommends the NPTF thread in preference to the NPSF for female ends.

NPSM
National pipe straight thread for mechanical joint. This is used on the female swivel nut of iron pipe swivel adapters. The leak-resistant joint is not made by the sealing fit of threads, but by a tapered seat in the coupling end.

Even though NPTF fittings are dryseal, almost everyone uses some type of thread sealant when used in hydraulic applications.

Henro · Oct 23, 2004

Henro, once again you have over analyzed the project requirements, this time for the hose and valve fittings.. 

What a minute...I take exception to that remark! Hummmm...or do I mean to say I resemble that remark? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

While I would question the "Over analyzed" assessment, I do NOW feel that had I just ordered simple NPTF hoses with male ends and adapters as required I MIGHT have hoses in my hand now instead of questions in my head as to why I don't have the hoses in my hand... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Anyway, although NPT threads are commonly used, after reading up on them as well as other type connections, it really does seem like they are inferior, at least in the theoretical sense, to the other fitting type available today.

That being said...live and learn...who knows, even if I had ordered NPTF hoses I might still be where I am today... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

MadReferee · Oct 23, 2004

( I do NOW feel that had I just ordered simple NPTF hoses with male ends and adapters as required I MIGHT have hoses in my hand now instead of questions in my head as to why I don't have the hoses in my hand.)

Maybe, maybe not regarding the hoses in your hand now. You would, however, have no problem correctly aligning the end fittings. Here is something on hoses I found in one of my reference sheets:

 Twisting a high-pressure hose only 7 degrees may reduce its service life up to 90%. When hose installation is straight, allow enough slack in the hose line to provide for length decreases, which occur when pressure is applied. If hose assemblies are too short to permit adequate flexing, service life will be reduced.

Hose can elongate by 2% or contract by 4%, depending on hose construction. Length contraction will occur under pressure impulses. Routing must take this into account.

( Anyway, although NPT threads are commonly used, after reading up on them as well as other type connections, it really does seem like they are inferior, at least in the theoretical sense, to the other fitting type available today. )

Theoretical only in the eyes of professional associations who would like to standardize on the more expensive JIC. From a practical standpoint, for this application they (NPTF or NPT) are definitely the way to go.

If they are so inferior then why are they still commonly in use today? You Kubota tractor uses them on all its cylinders and valves. When properly used they present no problems. As long as they are readily available and easily configurable and still do the job, they will continue to be widely used.

rswyan · Oct 23, 2004

Mad,

Thanks for the detailed (and great) explanation - just goes to show what happens when ya assume something. It's just this kinda thing that makes TBN so great a resource - ask a question and usually fairly quickly you have a reply with the straight dope.

rswyan · Oct 23, 2004

( Anyway, although NPT threads are commonly used, after reading up on them as well as other type connections, it really does seem like they are inferior, at least in the theoretical sense, to the other fitting type available today. )

I have a limited background in the automotive aftermarket - worked in my parents parts store business as kid and after I got out of highschool. In dealing with hydraulic fittings (mostly brake systems) it was always "pipe" or "tube". Pipe sealed by the threads and tube was almost always flared and had a seat for the seal - it never got anymore technical than that. Hanging out around here has been a real education.

Some fairly low pressure applications like tranny coolant and oil pressure lines which might have used compression fittings. Brake systems from what I recall never used pipe - always used a flare fitting with a seat - although we had alot of people want to use copper tube with compression unions for repairs since it was easier to bend and/or flare than steel.

In deciding to go with NPT fittings for my remotes I checked at several places (TSC, Surplus Center, etc.) and came to the conclusion that NPT appeared to be more common - and therefore would be easier to source - if (when) I blow a hose.

Henro · Oct 23, 2004

If they are so inferior then why are they still commonly in use today? You Kubota tractor uses them on all its cylinders and valves. 

Mad,

I will leave it to the experts to define why the NPT may be inferior to other type connections like the O-ring boss or whatever...

A couple months ago I developed a leak in one of the hoses on my Kubota backhoe...the ends of the hoses were JIC 37 and not NPT...

It seems to me that if one uses NTPF ends on a hose, then in order to avoid twisting the hose when installing it, he would need to use a NPTF to [something] adapter on the end of the hose.

The Prince control valve I purchased uses ORB fittings. The Prince cylinders use JIC37 fittings...

Waste of money[buying an adapter] if you can get that [something] end put right on the hose to begin with, at least from my perspective...again, depending on the individual costs of the parts...

Now I don't remember why the "experts" might claim that NTPF is substandard to other types of connections. But it seems to me that a fitting that relies on physical deformation of itself to make a seal would be less desirable than a fitting that relies on deformation of a replaceable O-ring.

Anyway, I would gladly have NPTF hoses in my hand, rather than anything else that is still out there in the bush somewhere... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

As far as price goes, I am not certain that putting a NPTF end on a hose, and then buying an adapter, is cheaper than just putting the needed [jic37 or ORB, or whatever] end on the hose to begin with.

As with everything else in life, each of us should do whatever trips our trigger... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

PineRidge · Oct 25, 2004

As an aside, you have 60 days to dispute the full charge with your credit card company. Don't put it off too long.


Henro I agree with KirkMcD, it sounds to me like you may be getting hosed...... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Gary_in_Indiana · Oct 25, 2004

"it sounds to me like you may be getting hosed...... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Let me be the lead of the collective TBN groan at that pun... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif