That Never Ending T&T Path!

   / That Never Ending T&T Path! #51  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( From what I have read NPTF (F=fuel) )</font>

I had assumed that NPTF stood for National Pipe Thread (Female) and that there was a corresponding NPTM - National Pipe Thread (Male) depending on the type of fitting - is this incorrect ?
 
   / That Never Ending T&T Path! #52  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I had assumed that NPTF stood for National Pipe Thread (Female) and that there was a corresponding NPTM - National Pipe Thread (Male) depending on the type of fitting - is this incorrect ?)</font>

NPTF
This is a dryseal thread; the National pipe tapered thread for fuels. This is used for both male and female ends. Several trade associations no longer recommend this thread connection for use with hydraulics but it is still widely used and fittings are easy to obtain and connection combinations cover the entire spectrum of types.

The NPTF male will mate with the NPTF, NPSF, or NPSM female.

The NPTF male has tapered threads and a 30° inverted seat. The NPTF female has tapered threads and no seat. The seal takes place by deformation of the threads. The NPSM female has straight threads and a 30° inverted seat. The seal takes place on the 30° seat.

The NPTF connector is similar to, but not interchangeable with, the BSPT connector. The thread pitch is different in most sizes. Also, the thread angle is 60° instead of the 55° angle found on BSPT threads.

NPSF
The National pipe straight thread for fuels. This is sometimes used for female ends and properly mates with the NPTF male end. However, the SAE recommends the NPTF thread in preference to the NPSF for female ends.

NPSM
National pipe straight thread for mechanical joint. This is used on the female swivel nut of iron pipe swivel adapters. The leak-resistant joint is not made by the sealing fit of threads, but by a tapered seat in the coupling end.

Even though NPTF fittings are dryseal, almost everyone uses some type of thread sealant when used in hydraulic applications.
 
   / That Never Ending T&T Path!
  • Thread Starter
#53  
<font color="blue"> Henro, once again you have over analyzed the project requirements, this time for the hose and valve fittings.. </font>

What a minute...I take exception to that remark! Hummmm...or do I mean to say I resemble that remark? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

While I would question the "Over analyzed" assessment, I do NOW feel that had I just ordered simple NPTF hoses with male ends and adapters as required I MIGHT have hoses in my hand now instead of questions in my head as to why I don't have the hoses in my hand... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Anyway, although NPT threads are commonly used, after reading up on them as well as other type connections, it really does seem like they are inferior, at least in the theoretical sense, to the other fitting type available today.

That being said...live and learn...who knows, even if I had ordered NPTF hoses I might still be where I am today... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
   / That Never Ending T&T Path! #54  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I do NOW feel that had I just ordered simple NPTF hoses with male ends and adapters as required I MIGHT have hoses in my hand now instead of questions in my head as to why I don't have the hoses in my hand.)</font>

Maybe, maybe not regarding the hoses in your hand now. You would, however, have no problem correctly aligning the end fittings. Here is something on hoses I found in one of my reference sheets:

<font color="red"> Twisting a high-pressure hose only 7 degrees may reduce its service life up to 90%. When hose installation is straight, allow enough slack in the hose line to provide for length decreases, which occur when pressure is applied. If hose assemblies are too short to permit adequate flexing, service life will be reduced.

Hose can elongate by 2% or contract by 4%, depending on hose construction. Length contraction will occur under pressure impulses. Routing must take this into account.</font>

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Anyway, although NPT threads are commonly used, after reading up on them as well as other type connections, it really does seem like they are inferior, at least in the theoretical sense, to the other fitting type available today. )</font>

Theoretical only in the eyes of professional associations who would like to standardize on the more expensive JIC. From a practical standpoint, for this application they (NPTF or NPT) are definitely the way to go.

If they are so inferior then why are they still commonly in use today? You Kubota tractor uses them on all its cylinders and valves. When properly used they present no problems. As long as they are readily available and easily configurable and still do the job, they will continue to be widely used.
 
   / That Never Ending T&T Path! #55  
Mad,

Thanks for the detailed (and great) explanation - just goes to show what happens when ya assume something. It's just this kinda thing that makes TBN so great a resource - ask a question and usually fairly quickly you have a reply with the straight dope.
 
   / That Never Ending T&T Path! #56  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Anyway, although NPT threads are commonly used, after reading up on them as well as other type connections, it really does seem like they are inferior, at least in the theoretical sense, to the other fitting type available today. )</font>

I have a limited background in the automotive aftermarket - worked in my parents parts store business as kid and after I got out of highschool. In dealing with hydraulic fittings (mostly brake systems) it was always "pipe" or "tube". Pipe sealed by the threads and tube was almost always flared and had a seat for the seal - it never got anymore technical than that. Hanging out around here has been a real education.

Some fairly low pressure applications like tranny coolant and oil pressure lines which might have used compression fittings. Brake systems from what I recall never used pipe - always used a flare fitting with a seat - although we had alot of people want to use copper tube with compression unions for repairs since it was easier to bend and/or flare than steel.

In deciding to go with NPT fittings for my remotes I checked at several places (TSC, Surplus Center, etc.) and came to the conclusion that NPT appeared to be more common - and therefore would be easier to source - if (when) I blow a hose.
 
   / That Never Ending T&T Path!
  • Thread Starter
#57  
<font color="blue">If they are so inferior then why are they still commonly in use today? You Kubota tractor uses them on all its cylinders and valves. </font>

Mad,

I will leave it to the experts to define why the NPT may be inferior to other type connections like the O-ring boss or whatever...

A couple months ago I developed a leak in one of the hoses on my Kubota backhoe...the ends of the hoses were JIC 37 and not NPT...

It seems to me that if one uses NTPF ends on a hose, then in order to avoid twisting the hose when installing it, he would need to use a NPTF to [something] adapter on the end of the hose.

The Prince control valve I purchased uses ORB fittings. The Prince cylinders use JIC37 fittings...

Waste of money[buying an adapter] if you can get that [something] end put right on the hose to begin with, at least from my perspective...again, depending on the individual costs of the parts...

Now I don't remember why the "experts" might claim that NTPF is substandard to other types of connections. But it seems to me that a fitting that relies on physical deformation of itself to make a seal would be less desirable than a fitting that relies on deformation of a replaceable O-ring.

Anyway, I would gladly have NPTF hoses in my hand, rather than anything else that is still out there in the bush somewhere... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

As far as price goes, I am not certain that putting a NPTF end on a hose, and then buying an adapter, is cheaper than just putting the needed [jic37 or ORB, or whatever] end on the hose to begin with.

As with everything else in life, each of us should do whatever trips our trigger... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
   / That Never Ending T&T Path! #58  
<font color="blue"> As an aside, you have 60 days to dispute the full charge with your credit card company. Don't put it off too long.
</font>

Henro I agree with KirkMcD, it sounds to me like you may be getting hosed...... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
   / That Never Ending T&T Path! #59  
<font color="blue"> "it sounds to me like you may be getting hosed......</font> /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Let me be the lead of the collective TBN groan at that pun... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / That Never Ending T&T Path! #60  
I'm surprised it took you guys 3-1/2 hours to shoot me in the foot for that pun. I really deserved it much sooner than that. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
 
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