stick welder question

[muddstopper]

Mud, could you re-state this sentence. It is confusing to me. The way it possibly reads is that I'm connecting the neutral to a positive busbar which is opposite to the existing positive busbar? Then run a ground wire from the shop box ground where the ground used to be to a grounding rod? Correct? I already have two 30 amp breakers in the house connected to the 10 wire out to the garage. (why did the guy put in two 30 amp breakers and not one if its 115v)

Quote Originally Posted by muddstopper View Post
In you shop breaker box, you would take the Neutral (white wire) off the ground busbar and connect to the opposite (Positive) busbar than the one the Positive, (black wire) is hooked to.
Just to clear up what I wrote earlier, not to make an argument that this is the correct way to do this.

Your current wire setup is #10 wire buried to your shop. You wire has a black wire, a white wire, and a bare ground wire. In you current setup, your white wire is being used as a neutral wire and is connected to the ground strip in your house as well as your shop breakerbox. If your breaker box is setup to accept 220v, it should have 2 strips for positive current and a ground strip. By removeing the white wire from the ground strip in your house breaker box, as well as the shop breakerbox, you can then attach each end of the white wire to the second positive bar in each breaker box and make the white wire a positive wire instead of a neutral. The black wire should already be attached to the other positive bar. There is the possibility that inside your shop breaker box, the 2 positive strips are connected with a jumper so both bars are positive, but still only 110v current. If this is the case, the jumper wire must be removed before connecting the white wire to the positive terminal, otherwise you would create a serious short. Now once you have removed the white wire from the ground bar, you would connect another bare wire to the ground strip and connect the other end to a ground rod driven into the soil outside the shop. I suppose to get around the code requirement, you could always just run a extra insulated wire for neutral from your house to the shop

Disclaimer
I know this method will work to supply 220v to your shop, I havent had any problems in my shop wired this way for 30years. Still, codes are written and changed for a reason, so if you chose to do this, you do so at your own risk and I cannot be held responsible in the event something does happen. There seems to be a few folks here with quite a bit more knowledge on this subject than I have. I didnt wire my shop the way it is wired, it was that way when I bought the house.

 

[muddstopper]

Hopefully I can clarify the neutral vs. ground thing -

The NEC is sometimes hard to understand, and this subject is no exception -

First, you can't have a complete electrical circuit without a complete path for the electricity to flow thru, so

A 120 volt circuit's complete path is from the "hot" 120 volt (black wire) through the device, then back to ground through the NEUTRAL wire ONLY. The third, (green) wire is a SAFETY ground, which should draw ZERO current unless there is a FAULT in the device being powered, or in the wiring.

NEC uses two "suffixes" to sort this out - groundING is used to denote the SAFETY ground, and groundED (neutral) means that, although that conductor is attached to the SAME LUG in the panel as the GROUNDING (safety) wire, the groundED (neutral) wire is the ONLY wire that should be carrying current.

All the above is for a 120 volt circuit.

240 volt -

Your electrical panel has two "buses" - the two rails that connect each breaker to the incoming power.

Both of these "buses" will measure 120 volts to ground, but, since we're dealing with sine wave AC power, one bus will be at its NEGATIVE peak at the same time the OTHER bus is at it's POSITIVE peak voltage. In "tech speak", the two busses are 180 degrees out of phase.

This means that if you connect a meter or device between BOTH of these buses, you will get 240 volts AC.

It ALSO means that, with NO OTHER WIRES, you would have a COMPLETE CIRCUIT for your 240 volt device, and IT WOULD WORK.

Soooo, for a 240 volt circuit, the only use for the third wire is the same as a 120 volt circuit's GREEN wire - SAFETY. Or to put it another way, a 240 volt circuit has ZERO wires that are both groundED and still (normally) carry current.

Newer code, among other things, takes into account newer (smarter) devices such as smart stoves, which need 240 volts for adequate power but ALSO have electronics that want 120 volts - this brings up the 4-wire 240 volt part -

Instead of just two "hots" for 240 volts and GROUND for safety, it also supplies a SEPARATE NEUTRAL for a SEPARATE return. This new NEUTRAL is used as a return for any 120 volt parts of your "smart stove" - typically electronic controls, etc.

This arrangement satisfies ALL requirements - you still have a ZERO current GROUND for SAFETY (for both 120 and 240 volt stuff), and a groundED neutral return for 120 volt circuits, which DOES have current flow.

And yes, both ground wires and neutral wires connect to the same lug at one point (in the panel) - but ONLY THE NEUTRAL should be flowing current, or you have a PROBLEM.

Hopefully I covered things understandably - but since these types of threads usually go on forever, I'm sure that eventually it'll get sorted out :thumbsup: ... Steve

I think I understand that. If you are running 240v and 120v off the same panel, you must use a insulated Neutral wire to carry the 120 current back to the ground and since you do have current running back thru to ground, you cant use an uninsulated wire. Where as the bare wire isnt carrying any current unless something shorts out where as then it would run straight to the ground by the bare wire. Makes sense now that I see it in writing.

 

[arrow]

Bukit, I really appreciate your explanation. If you had to tell this to a 7 year old, how would you say it? Just kidding…I have at least an 8 year old reading comprehension. This is why i stunk at school and why I spent most of my life in the woods and took 7 yrs to get through college. Fortunately I went to an art school college or it could have taken longer. My brain gets so jumbled with this sort of stuff you can't believe it. I think I have a dangling wire in my head that isn't grounded. If wires were train tracks I might get it. My problem not yours. Thank you for your efforts.

 

[arrow]

Arrow have you tried 7014 rod, it strikes and maintains and arc pretty easily.. or maybe 6013, also and easy starter.

I have James about 5 years ago and it was like magic. Then one day two weeks ago, i couldn't get the rod lit at all and it was only 1/16. I had to muddle through tacking up a bucket fork set up with 6013. Took forever. I think my 30 year old 100 amp (ha) welder might be down to 50 or 60 amps. Spending its life in an uninsulated garage being hardly used has taken its toll on the poor box.

 

[Willie B]

Hopefully I can clarify the neutral vs. ground thing -

The NEC is sometimes hard to understand, and this subject is no exception -

First, you can't have a complete electrical circuit without a complete path for the electricity to flow thru, so

A 120 volt circuit's complete path is from the "hot" 120 volt (black wire) through the device, then back to ground through the NEUTRAL wire ONLY. The third, (green) wire is a SAFETY ground, which should draw ZERO current unless there is a FAULT in the device being powered, or in the wiring.

NEC uses two "suffixes" to sort this out - groundING is used to denote the SAFETY ground, and groundED (neutral) means that, although that conductor is attached to the SAME LUG in the panel as the GROUNDING (safety) wire, the groundED (neutral) wire is the ONLY wire that should be carrying current.

All the above is for a 120 volt circuit.

240 volt -

Your electrical panel has two "buses" - the two rails that connect each breaker to the incoming power.

Both of these "buses" will measure 120 volts to ground, but, since we're dealing with sine wave AC power, one bus will be at its NEGATIVE peak at the same time the OTHER bus is at it's POSITIVE peak voltage. In "tech speak", the two busses are 180 degrees out of phase.

This means that if you connect a meter or device between BOTH of these buses, you will get 240 volts AC.

It ALSO means that, with NO OTHER WIRES, you would have a COMPLETE CIRCUIT for your 240 volt device, and IT WOULD WORK.

Soooo, for a 240 volt circuit, the only use for the third wire is the same as a 120 volt circuit's GREEN wire - SAFETY. Or to put it another way, a 240 volt circuit has ZERO wires that are both groundED and still (normally) carry current.

Newer code, among other things, takes into account newer (smarter) devices such as smart stoves, which need 240 volts for adequate power but ALSO have electronics that want 120 volts - this brings up the 4-wire 240 volt part -

Instead of just two "hots" for 240 volts and GROUND for safety, it also supplies a SEPARATE NEUTRAL for a SEPARATE return. This new NEUTRAL is used as a return for any 120 volt parts of your "smart stove" - typically electronic controls, etc.

This arrangement satisfies ALL requirements - you still have a ZERO current GROUND for SAFETY (for both 120 and 240 volt stuff), and a groundED neutral return for 120 volt circuits, which DOES have current flow.

And yes, both ground wires and neutral wires connect to the same lug at one point (in the panel) - but ONLY THE NEUTRAL should be flowing current, or you have a PROBLEM.

Hopefully I covered things understandably - but since these types of threads usually go on forever, I'm sure that eventually it'll get sorted out :thumbsup: ... Steve

I've been going to code school periodically for 45 years. On two occasions I have spent a weekend re learning grounding and bonding. Some of the people with masters licenses and years of experience leave these sessions confused. A simple concept, we want to prevent tragedy. In the how to it gets more complicated. Understand that when code changes, most often it is the aftermath of a lawsuit. Code making panels are usually made up of groups of brilliant people, they aren't always very good at phrasing in laymen's terms.Then they send it off to the lawyers. I don't remember who first said that a camel is the result of an attempt by a committee of experts to design a horse.
Essentially, we want all of the electricity to stay inside the circuit. Should any escape, we use the grounding system to complete the circuit, overload the breaker and trip it. Bonding is to provide a better path for fault current than through people or animals.
Our utilities connect the center of the secondary winding to earth, and the neutral, or "grounded" (white) in our breaker panels. The "grounding" system also connects to earth, by driven rods, underground water pipes, well casings, and connection to foundation steel. Since we don't want electricity to flow on this system we only bond "grounded" to "grounding" at one point in each building. In some circumstances we don't bond at all.

 

[BukitCase]

Mudd, sounds like you've got it - only in a LOT less words than me, which is typical

Arrow, try reading it thru a few more times, it may help - if not, I'll give my old standby approach a try, it usually helps non-electricians get the idea.

Willie, couldn't agree more - I'd bet at least 2/3 of my required CE courses were on grounding/bonding. I finally retired last year, and don't miss those classes at all. (Now, I've been doing a LOT more welding and getting a decent handle on hydraulics - guess masochism must be habit-forming :laughing: ...Steve

 

[eastexan]

One thing that I've never understood is why 120v needs to return via a neutral, and 240v don't?
Does 240v just go off into infinity after being used? :dance1:

 

[arrow]

Since I m a "visual" learner, allow me to proceed. Here you see the box at the house going to the garage. The two 30 amp breakers are connected to the #10 wire going to the garage being fed from the main with a 50 amp breaker acting as a service disconnect. Why is this not 220 already? The box in the garage is all 110 volt with 20 and 15 amp outlets connected. If indeed I have 220 going out to the garage, isn't it simply a matter of putting in a 220 30 amp breaker at the garage with a wire lead dedicated to the welder outlet?

 

[k0ua]

One thing that I've never understood is why 120v needs to return via a neutral, and 240v don't?
Does 240v just go off into infinity after being used? :dance1:

No. The two legs are out of phase. and the electrons that flow one direction in one leg flow the other direction in the other leg at any given point in time.
The sine wave waveform goes 120 volts above 0 and 120 volts below 0 sixty times a second. the other leg is doing the same thing, only 180 degrees out of phase. Your welder is hooked up between the two legs (phases) and the average (mean) is about 240 volts.

 

[k0ua]

Since I m a "visual" learner, allow me to proceed. Here you see the box at the house going to the garage. The 2 30 amp breakers are connected to the #10 wire going to the garage being fed from the main with a 50 amp breaker acting as a service disconnect. Why is this not 220 already? The box in the garage is all 110 volt with 20 and 15 amp outlets connected. If indeed I have 220 going out to the garage, isn't it simply a matter of putting in a 220 30 amp breaker at the garage with a wire lead dedicated to the welder outlet?

Arrow, go out to the garage, and open the electrical box. Take your voltmeter set on an AC scale over 240 volts. Measure between the 2 wires coming into the box from the house. If they are between 220 and 240 volts you have your answer. If they are between 110 and 120 volts, you still have your answer, just not the one you wanted to see.

 

[arrow]

Arrow, go out to the garage, and open the electrical box. Take your voltmeter set on an AC scale over 240 volts. Measure between the 2 wires coming into the box from the house. If they are between 220 and 240 volts you have your answer. If they are between 110 and 120 volts, you still have your answer, just not the one you wanted to see.

Well the puzzle for me here James is if they used two 30 amp breakers from the house to the garage. 110 +110 is 220 no? How is it reduced back to 110 at the garage if indeed this is the case? Unless the two breakers were not bridged? Why put in two if they weren't going to be as there is no other separate circuit? its just the one wire going out.

 

[k0ua]

Well the puzzle for me here James is if they used two 30 amp breakers from the house to the garage. 110 +110 is 220 no? How is it reduced back to 110 at the garage if indeed this is the case? Unless the two breakers were not bridged? Why put in two if they weren't going to be as there is no other separate circuit? its just the one wire going out.

Well unless they are running current on the bare ground wire as if it was a Nuetral wire, I dunno.. Would need to see the installation. Why not spend some money, and have a trustworthy electrician come out and look over the install and advise you.? Your install is somewhat of a mystery. The only way to know for sure is open the boxes and take a look. If you have 220-240 out in the garage, then the only way to get the 110-120 is by using the bare ground wire to pull current as if it was a nuetral wire and that is a no no. So I guess I am puzzled as well. I guess I am also puzzled as to why the sub box leading that feeds the garage is mounted upside down?

 

[EMB5530]

Well unless they are running current on the bare ground wire as if it was a Nuetral wire, I dunno.. Would need to see the installation. Why not spend some money, and have a trustworthy electrician come out and look over the install and advise you.? Your install is somewhat of a mystery. The only way to know for sure is open the boxes and take a look. If you have 220-240 out in the garage, then the only way to get the 110-120 is by using the bare ground wire to pull current as if it was a nuetral wire and that is a no no. So I guess I am puzzled as well. I guess I am also puzzled as to why the sub box leading that feeds the garage is mounted upside down?

:thumbsup:

Its fine not to understand everything but with the questions you are having I would find some help that understood electricity and could help you through it. Not someone to do it for you, if you're wanting to learn but to "learn ya". I am always more satisfied by a job well done when I've done it and learned a thing or two in the process. A few quick explanations with a panel door open helps explain a good amount that is hard to convey through text. Once your questions are explained, in person with visuals of the panels, I bet you will say "ohh well that's easy to understand"
Good luck

BE CAREFULL :2cents:

 

[Willie B]

At the utility company's transformer there are two windings. The primary connects to the high voltage power lines running from God knows where. The secondary winding reacts to the magnetic field produced in the primary, it produces a voltage of 240 when measured at both ends of the winding. Because someone famous 130 years ago decided a lower voltage might be useful, the utility transformer secondary is center tapped. As we now have 3 conductors available to run to the house, (two ends and center) from the transformer secondary, (120v from either end of winding to center, or 240v end to end). For a number of reasons it is important to keep all current flow within these three conductors, the center tap is connected to earth at the transformer, its conductor is connected to earth at the house. This center tap connector we call grounded or neutral, is usually identified with white, it only conducts the difference in current between the two "hot" conductors leading from the transformer secondary winding.
At the house you should have two heavy conductors connected to a service disconnect or breaker, this in turn feeds two bus bars like interlocking fingers upon which branch circuit breakers latch. It now sounds like you have 240/120 volts running to your garage. I sense there are code issues, but you may qualify for the "grandfather" exemption. Your two insulated conductors to the garage should connect at house end to a double pole breaker. Your uninsulated conductor (I would tape up each end with white electrical tape) connects to the neutral buss in the house and garage. Any conductors (water pipe etc.) between them disregard this. You need driven ground at garage. Bond this to neutral.

 

[Willie B]

Alternative B: good engine welders are available on Craigslist for less than $1000.00

 

[Willie B]

In a number of communication systems an effort is made to be more clear. If I ever make a suggestion to consider for new code it will be a change in the "grounded" and "grounding" terminology. It is confusing to those who don't speak electrician, and even electricians in a noisy environment.

 

[Willie B]

One thing that I've never understood is why 120v needs to return via a neutral, and 240v don't?
Does 240v just go off into infinity after being used? :dance1:

Always a complete circuit. 240 goes back to the transformer. As we have two branches able to supply 120, each coming to a neutral buss in a breaker panel, they balance to some degree, the neutral going back to the street carries only imbalance current. A load of 100 amps on one leg and a load of 90 amps on the other will load each neutral at 100 & 90 until they reach a common buss bar, then back to the transformer the neutral carries only 10 amps.

 

[aczlan]

Since I m a "visual" learner, allow me to proceed. Here you see the box at the house going to the garage. The two 30 amp breakers are connected to the #10 wire going to the garage being fed from the main with a 50 amp breaker acting as a service disconnect. Why is this not 220 already? The box in the garage is all 110 volt with 20 and 15 amp outlets connected. If indeed I have 220 going out to the garage, isn't it simply a matter of putting in a 220 30 amp breaker at the garage with a wire lead dedicated to the welder outlet?

Can you take a picture with the lid off the box (and possibly a similar one in the garage)? Do both the breakers with green levers go out to the garage?

Aaron Z

 

[muddstopper]

Since I m a "visual" learner, allow me to proceed. Here you see the box at the house going to the garage. The two 30 amp breakers are connected to the #10 wire going to the garage being fed from the main with a 50 amp breaker acting as a service disconnect. Why is this not 220 already? The box in the garage is all 110 volt with 20 and 15 amp outlets connected. If indeed I have 220 going out to the garage, isn't it simply a matter of putting in a 220 30 amp breaker at the garage with a wire lead dedicated to the welder outlet?

Looking at the panel pic, it would seem that the breaker at the bottom left is a 240v 15amp breaker, so you should have 240v in this breaker panel, unless someone is only using one side of the breaker as a 120v circuit. Are both of 2 green breakers supplying power to your shop?? If so, and you are sure your buried wire has only 2 insulated wires and a bare wire, something is really screwy. Typically, to the best of my knowledge, breakers mounted side by side in a panel are usually on seperate hot legs. If this is the case in your panel then it would seem that whoever wired it is supplying 240v to your shop panel already. I have seen single breakers for 240v before, but they are usually pinned together at the switches so that if one breaker trips, it trips the other breaker as well. Maybe I am looking at this all wrong, but I think it is time you bring in a electrician to actually look at what has been done. Your pics dont jive with what I have seen even jackleg electricians doing.

 

[k0ua]

Your pics dont jive with what I have seen even jackleg electricians doing.

yep, time to call in for some help.