stick welder question

[Mark @ Everlast]

So if this 115v circuit I have is on 10 gauge wire and on a 30 amp breaker, I'm within the parameters of a 120 amp welder dial in while in 110/ 120 mode? While we're at it, can you please ball park shipping from Cali to RI? Thanks

Actually due to the duty cycle limitation, you'd likely be fine with less wire gauge, and a slow trip breaker according to the NEC, but don't take my word for it. Consult your local codes and licensed electrician.

PM me and I'll give you a full quote to buy direct from me.

 

[EMB5530]

So if this 115v circuit I have is on 10 gauge wire and on a 30 amp breaker, I'm within the parameters of a 120 amp welder dial in while in 110/ 120 mode? While we're at it, can you please ball park shipping from Cali to RI? Thanks

But why would you want to run it on 120V

Change out the breaker for a 240 and switch out the outlet and run at the higher voltage.It will be cheaper anyways. Where are you gonna find a 30amp 120volt plug anywhere in the real world, you are more apt to find 240 volt outlet if you were thinking that 120 would be more mobile.

Just my opinion so do whatever works best for you.

Good luck.

 

[arrow]

But why would you want to run it on 120V

Change out the breaker for a 240 and switch out the outlet and run at the higher voltage.It will be cheaper anyways. Where are you gonna find a 30amp 120volt plug anywhere in the real world, you are more apt to find 240 volt outlet if you were thinking that 120 would be more mobile.

Just my opinion so do whatever works best for you.

Good luck.

The 10 is feeding all 115 circuits into the garage. My mistake when I ran the wire 30 years ago not to provide a dedicated circuit for 220 by running another wire right next to it. As I did not encase the wire in some pipe was another mistake and now there is just too much stuff in the way for a re-do and dig up. I'm better off making a 50 foot extension to plug into the dryer circuit for the 220 stuff. I just need something that can light up some type of an electrode I can use at a 100 honest amps.

 

[EMB5530]

I get ya.

You sure ya don't want multiple 220 outlets in the garage. Man that grinder would run real fast!:shocked:

Have a good New Year's

 

[muddstopper]

The 10 is feeding all 115 circuits into the garage. My mistake when I ran the wire 30 years ago not to provide a dedicated circuit for 220 by running another wire right next to it. As I did not encase the wire in some pipe was another mistake and now there is just too much stuff in the way for a re-do and dig up. I'm better off making a 50 foot extension to plug into the dryer circuit for the 220 stuff. I just need something that can light up some type of an electrode I can use at a 100 honest amps.

Electrician son setting here beside me. His suggestion if you want 220 at your shop using the exsisting wire is it can be done. We are just guessing that the #10 wire you used to run the power does have 2 insulated and one bare wire. What you would do is change out the 110 breaker to a 220 breaker in your power supplying breaker box. (from house breaker box). Using the two insulated covered wires for your power legs and bare wire to ground. In you shop breaker box, you would take the Neutral (white wire) off the ground busbar and connect to the opposite (Positive) busbar than the one the Positive, (black wire) is hooked to. If there has been a jumper wire ran to connect both busbars, this jumper wire must be removed. Then you would use another bare wire and connect to the ground busbar,( In place of where your removed the white neutral wire), and connect to a ground rod driven into the ground. Your switch panel should now have 220v, but still retain the original 110 to any current breakers that had previously been installed. It would then be a simple matter of installing a 220 breaker and wireing in a 220 outlet. Now the size breaker you would be able to install would depend on how far the 110 wire from house to shop is, as well as what other power demands are required that are being used in the shop. You would also need to factor in the power demand of your shop when installing a 220v breaker in our house switch box. You will most likely be limited to a 30amp breaker and about 100ft of run to supply 220v to your shop considering you only have #10 wire already ran to your shop

 

[arrow]

Electrician son setting here beside me. His suggestion if you want 220 at your shop using the exsisting wire is it can be done. We are just guessing that the #10 wire you used to run the power does have 2 insulated and one bare wire. What you would do is change out the 110 breaker to a 220 breaker in your power supplying breaker box. (from house breaker box). Using the two insulated covered wires for your power legs and bare wire to ground. In you shop breaker box, you would take the Neutral (white wire) off the ground busbar and connect to the opposite (Positive) busbar than the one the Positive, (black wire) is hooked to. If there has been a jumper wire ran to connect both busbars, this jumper wire must be removed. Then you would use another bare wire and connect to the ground busbar,( In place of where your removed the white neutral wire), and connect to a ground rod driven into the ground. Your switch panel should now have 220v, but still retain the original 110 to any current breakers that had previously been installed. It would then be a simple matter of installing a 220 breaker and wireing in a 220 outlet. Now the size breaker you would be able to install would depend on how far the 110 wire from house to shop is, as well as what other power demands are required that are being used in the shop. You would also need to factor in the power demand of your shop when installing a 220v breaker in our house switch box. You will most likely be limited to a 30amp breaker and about 100ft of run to supply 220v to your shop considering you only have #10 wire already ran to your shop

Muddstopper thank you very much for your suggestion. As I am ignorant of electricity beyond the installation of a plug or breaker, I have little idea what you are talking about. None the less, I will print out your suggestion and give it to my brother -in-law former lineman. He should know. It is a 100 ft run and a 30 amp breaker would be fine. Also the guess on the wire is also correct. I have to re-read something several times before I get anything you can call cognizance.

 

[Willie B]

Where do you live that 240 Volts are that hard to come by? A twenty amp 120 volt circuit can offer an absolute maximum of 2400 watts, my coffee maker uses a big portion of that! A 120 Volt machine designed to run on a household outlet will be a long term source of frustration, always almost big enough to be useful. Have an electrician install 50 Amps 240 Volts. Then a multitude of used welders big enough to build a bridge are available.

 

[Willie B]

Electrician son setting here beside me. His suggestion if you want 220 at your shop using the exsisting wire is it can be done. We are just guessing that the #10 wire you used to run the power does have 2 insulated and one bare wire. What you would do is change out the 110 breaker to a 220 breaker in your power supplying breaker box. (from house breaker box). Using the two insulated covered wires for your power legs and bare wire to ground. In you shop breaker box, you would take the Neutral (white wire) off the ground busbar and connect to the opposite (Positive) busbar than the one the Positive, (black wire) is hooked to. If there has been a jumper wire ran to connect both busbars, this jumper wire must be removed. Then you would use another bare wire and connect to the ground busbar,( In place of where your removed the white neutral wire), and connect to a ground rod driven into the ground. Your switch panel should now have 220v, but still retain the original 110 to any current breakers that had previously been installed. It would then be a simple matter of installing a 220 breaker and wireing in a 220 outlet. Now the size breaker you would be able to install would depend on how far the 110 wire from house to shop is, as well as what other power demands are required that are being used in the shop. You would also need to factor in the power demand of your shop when installing a 220v breaker in our house switch box. You will most likely be limited to a 30amp breaker and about 100ft of run to supply 220v to your shop considering you only have #10 wire already ran to your shop

That solution isn't legal, and poses some safety issues. Code compliant that would require an insulated neutral, and a grounding conductor. While it will work, don't do it.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

When you are talking about a welder, there is NO neutral...if it's just for that circuit, and no other way to hook up a dryer or whatever, and no way to utilize one.

 

[DXN1EL]

I would suggest a 50Amp.(later on you would want a 50Amp welder) Get 200FT of 4Gauge,
for the ground have a bar near the outlet.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

A lot of good electricians don't know that there are separate wiring codes for welders. I've gotten many a call from them looking for a "neutral" wire, or one telling me the wires were heavy enough etc.

Anyone with a copy can look up section 630 of the NEC.

 

[DXN1EL]

National Electrical Code Tips: Article 630, Electric Welders

 

[Willie B]

When you are talking about a welder, there is NO neutral...if it's just for that circuit, and no other way to hook up a dryer or whatever, and no way to utilize one.

Mudstopper wasn't talking about wiring a welder. Once he leaves the breaker panel in the garage, two wire plus ground is fine. Supplying a garage with 120/240 requires three insulated conductors plus a grounding conductor.

 

[muddstopper]

Mudstopper wasn't talking about wiring a welder. Once he leaves the breaker panel in the garage, two wire plus ground is fine. Supplying a garage with 120/240 requires three insulated conductors plus a grounding conductor.

Willie, I am not an electrician, so I dont know if your right or not. I was just offering up a work around where the OP could use his exsisting wire to get 220V in his shop. What I suggested will work as long as the Op does supply the extra grounding wire to a ground rod driven in the ground. Currently, my shop is wired in this manner, altho I have much bigger wire (#6) from the house to the shop. I have two welders, Plasma cutter and a 14in Monarch lathe on 220v circuits and then the drill press and air compressor on 110v. It has been this way since 1984 and I have never had any problems. Maybe code was different back then, but the building inspectors signed off on it.

When I look at the powerlines coming into my house, there are 2 insulated and one bare wire carrying 220v, there in no insulated neutral. I feel what I have done is simply just and extention of what the power company did when they ran the electricity to the house.

Just talked to son, Code change in 2011. Must use 3 insulated wires (2 postive and 1 neutral) and ground and a ground rod. Unless its a dedicated 220v circuit, such as a welder. For a dedicated circuit, 2 insulated wires and a ground, plus ground rod. Interesting to note, both neutral and ground are bonded to the same lug in the switch panel at the point of entry to the switch panel. I aint smart enough to understand why, but it looks to me if the neutral and ground are bonded at any point, then both wires are actually working as one. Son tried to explain it to me, but I still cant grasp the concept.

 

[Willie B]

Yes, it is a recent change to require a grounding conductor. The requirement for a neutral conductor isn't new. The exemption from grounding electrode is for a single branch circuit. When you install a breaker panel and branch to lighting etc. the underground wire becomes a feeder. Then, present NAEC requires both a grounding conductor from house, and an electrode system at garage. There is an exemption for feeders installed without grounding conductor, if the installation complied with earlier code. The inspector I deal with has ruled in a similar scenario that it was installed with a grounding conductor, and the present desire to re purpose the grounding conductor to create a grounded (neutral conductor) doesn't qualify you for this exemption. That said, your inspector may see it differently. I wondered if there was a requirement for an insulated neutral. I haven't found it.
If the only circuit in the building were the welder using the present two wire cable would only violate color code. If I were going out on a limb to do it I would at least use red tape on both ends of the white conductor, and white tape on both ends of the bare conductor. If the house panel is a sub panel neutral (grounded) and bare (equipment grounding) buses should be separate. "Grounding" and "grounded" systems are bonded to each other at only one point in the home service equipment, usually a screw through the grounded (white wire) buss into the panel enclosure.
The garage breaker panel should then be bonded between Grounded and grounding busses then to the earth electrodes. See article 225 and 250.

 

[arrow]

In you shop breaker box, you would take the Neutral (white wire) off the ground busbar and connect to the opposite (Positive) busbar than the one the Positive, (black wire) is hooked to.

Mud, could you re-state this sentence. It is confusing to me. The way it possibly reads is that I'm connecting the neutral to a positive busbar which is opposite to the existing positive busbar? Then run a ground wire from the shop box ground where the ground used to be to a grounding rod? Correct? I already have two 30 amp breakers in the house connected to the 10 wire out to the garage. (why did the guy put in two 30 amp breakers and not one if its 115v)

 

[arrow]

I would suggest a 50Amp.(later on you would want a 50Amp welder) Get 200FT of 4Gauge,
for the ground have a bar near the outlet.

This would be fine for a person doing actual welding. If I run 6" of weld per year I'm doing something. What I do is cut out the stuff, tack it together and then bring it to the welding shop. I just want something that I can actually strike a bead with and not have to scratch the rod 11,000 times before I can get anything that resembles an arc.

 

[k0ua]

This would be fine for a person doing actual welding. If I run 6" of weld per year I'm doing something. What I do is cut out the stuff, tack it together and then bring it to the welding shop. I just want something that I can actually strike a bead with and not have to scratch the rod 11,000 times before I can get anything that resembles an arc.

Arrow have you tried 7014 rod, it strikes and maintains and arc pretty easily.. or maybe 6013, also and easy starter.

 

[EMB5530]

k0ua has a good point there.
Also, I myself have found that KT industries rod is junk and you are better off w/ lincoln or esab but, I find lincoln rod is easier to strike though I like the way esab rods weld out.

 

[BukitCase]

Hopefully I can clarify the neutral vs. ground thing -

The NEC is sometimes hard to understand, and this subject is no exception -

First, you can't have a complete electrical circuit without a complete path for the electricity to flow thru, so

A 120 volt circuit's complete path is from the "hot" 120 volt (black wire) through the device, then back to ground through the NEUTRAL wire ONLY. The third, (green) wire is a SAFETY ground, which should draw ZERO current unless there is a FAULT in the device being powered, or in the wiring.

NEC uses two "suffixes" to sort this out - groundING is used to denote the SAFETY ground, and groundED (neutral) means that, although that conductor is attached to the SAME LUG in the panel as the GROUNDING (safety) wire, the groundED (neutral) wire is the ONLY wire that should be carrying current.

All the above is for a 120 volt circuit.

240 volt -

Your electrical panel has two "buses" - the two rails that connect each breaker to the incoming power.

Both of these "buses" will measure 120 volts to ground, but, since we're dealing with sine wave AC power, one bus will be at its NEGATIVE peak at the same time the OTHER bus is at it's POSITIVE peak voltage. In "tech speak", the two busses are 180 degrees out of phase.

This means that if you connect a meter or device between BOTH of these buses, you will get 240 volts AC.

It ALSO means that, with NO OTHER WIRES, you would have a COMPLETE CIRCUIT for your 240 volt device, and IT WOULD WORK.

Soooo, for a 240 volt circuit, the only use for the third wire is the same as a 120 volt circuit's GREEN wire - SAFETY. Or to put it another way, a 240 volt circuit has ZERO wires that are both groundED and still (normally) carry current.

Newer code, among other things, takes into account newer (smarter) devices such as smart stoves, which need 240 volts for adequate power but ALSO have electronics that want 120 volts - this brings up the 4-wire 240 volt part -

Instead of just two "hots" for 240 volts and GROUND for safety, it also supplies a SEPARATE NEUTRAL for a SEPARATE return. This new NEUTRAL is used as a return for any 120 volt parts of your "smart stove" - typically electronic controls, etc.

This arrangement satisfies ALL requirements - you still have a ZERO current GROUND for SAFETY (for both 120 and 240 volt stuff), and a groundED neutral return for 120 volt circuits, which DOES have current flow.

And yes, both ground wires and neutral wires connect to the same lug at one point (in the panel) - but ONLY THE NEUTRAL should be flowing current, or you have a PROBLEM.

Hopefully I covered things understandably - but since these types of threads usually go on forever, I'm sure that eventually it'll get sorted out :thumbsup: ... Steve