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Bob_Skurka
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I'm hoping to have everything done within the next 30 days, if the dealers & the weather cooperates!!!
Steiner Front-wheel-drive versus PT AWD
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MossRoad
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Do you have a digital camera? We'd love to see your hills.
Bob,
Just a reminder that when you or anyone else is driving the Ventrac with the mower deck attached, make sure that the Weight Transfer System is engaged and set for the Maximum Transfer. You first raise the deck fully, set the amount of "strength" of transfer (usually maximum), and then lower the deck. Easy to do but also easy to forget for those unaccustomed to operating a tractor with a weight transfer system. You will be amazed at the effectiveness of this system in increasing traction and steering control on slopes.
Then on the other side, if you remove the deck in preparation for connecting another attachment, be sure to first raise the deck fully, disengage the weight transfer system, lower the deck, and then disconnect. It is physically possible to disconnect while leaving the Weight Transfer Engaged, but the lift arms will tend to snap up. Then when you approach another attachment, you will find it difficult to get the lift arms to lower and stay down to complete the connection.
After connecting and disconnecting a few times, this will become second nature to you. However, in the beginning, you may tend to forget when connecting or disconnecting. If you do forget to engage weight transfer, the tractor / deck system will tell you by its less than stellar performance on slopes.
If you haven't done so already, get the video or DVD from Venture Products that shows all of the equipment in operation. It is very well done. There are separate videos for the 3000 and 4000 series, but the DVD contains both.
Let us know how it comes out.
JackIL
Just a reminder that when you or anyone else is driving the Ventrac with the mower deck attached, make sure that the Weight Transfer System is engaged and set for the Maximum Transfer. You first raise the deck fully, set the amount of "strength" of transfer (usually maximum), and then lower the deck. Easy to do but also easy to forget for those unaccustomed to operating a tractor with a weight transfer system. You will be amazed at the effectiveness of this system in increasing traction and steering control on slopes.
Then on the other side, if you remove the deck in preparation for connecting another attachment, be sure to first raise the deck fully, disengage the weight transfer system, lower the deck, and then disconnect. It is physically possible to disconnect while leaving the Weight Transfer Engaged, but the lift arms will tend to snap up. Then when you approach another attachment, you will find it difficult to get the lift arms to lower and stay down to complete the connection.
After connecting and disconnecting a few times, this will become second nature to you. However, in the beginning, you may tend to forget when connecting or disconnecting. If you do forget to engage weight transfer, the tractor / deck system will tell you by its less than stellar performance on slopes.
If you haven't done so already, get the video or DVD from Venture Products that shows all of the equipment in operation. It is very well done. There are separate videos for the 3000 and 4000 series, but the DVD contains both.
Let us know how it comes out.
JackIL
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Bob_Skurka
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Well I talked to the Ventrac people.
There are no dealers in Illinois. The only dealer in Indiana is on the opposite end of the state at least 300 miles away.
I was put in touch with a guy who sets up dealerships for Ventrac. He said he would coordinate getting a demo unit out to my house for a test drive. I told him I wanted a unit before summer grass cutting season starts, but there was no other rush. He is hoping to have something at the house in a couple of weeks for me to test but was unsure he could do it that quickly. I am going out of the country for a week in April, so it is possible the demo might not occur until the middle or end of April.
There are no dealers in Illinois. The only dealer in Indiana is on the opposite end of the state at least 300 miles away.
I was put in touch with a guy who sets up dealerships for Ventrac. He said he would coordinate getting a demo unit out to my house for a test drive. I told him I wanted a unit before summer grass cutting season starts, but there was no other rush. He is hoping to have something at the house in a couple of weeks for me to test but was unsure he could do it that quickly. I am going out of the country for a week in April, so it is possible the demo might not occur until the middle or end of April.
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Bob_Skurka
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If there is any dealer in Indiana other than one is Jasper, IN then Ventrac is unaware of them. It is my understanding that Jasper is in the extreme southern portion of Indiana near the Indiana/Kentucky border.
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Bob_Skurka
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The rep from Ventrac called back. He is arranging for a dealer up near Wisconsin Dells to bring a Ventrac 3000 down to my house at the end of this month. The unit will come with a 60" mower deck and a 30" slip scoop for the demo. If I like it, I'll buy it on the spot.
They seem very accomodating about my concerns for the test drive and testing it on my hill. In fact, I'm surprised at how accomodating they are. In this day and age when finding good customer service seems to be unusual, the Ventrac rep has been knowledgable and helpful and his response time is far better than I would have expected.
I'll report back with how it goes.
They seem very accomodating about my concerns for the test drive and testing it on my hill. In fact, I'm surprised at how accomodating they are. In this day and age when finding good customer service seems to be unusual, the Ventrac rep has been knowledgable and helpful and his response time is far better than I would have expected.
I'll report back with how it goes.
MossRoad
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Amazing that some companies still go out of their way for the customer, isn't it? /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
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Bob_Skurka
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Moss . . . customer service so bad that I am surprised when retail stores take CA$H.
And one of the main reasons for NOT going with the PT was the lack of ability to try before I buy. They seem like they are helpful, but they won't send a PT for Indiana for me to try, and I can't blame them given their direct to consumer sales approach. But guys like me need a little hand holding and romancing before we give it up!
There is a PT owner who lives about a mile away along the same river I live on, he offered to let me try one of his PT 422s. But it seems like the PT425 is probably the one I'd need/want because of the higher torque wheel motors so trying a PT422 when it will be different than a PT425 seemed sort of pointless, especially since the one I really would like would be a PT180 but with a larger mower deck (but that is not available on that size unit).
The Ventrac 3000 is small in size with 21hp so it is more like a PT422, but with a 10" tighter turning radius than the PT180 and a wheel base that is 12" shorter than the PT180 while the overall length is 10" shorter than the PT180 but only 2" narrower than the PT180 making for a short but wide footprint for stability. It also weighs about 40% less (710 pounds versus 1260 pounds).
The rep I talked to is very confident that it will climb my hill with lots of power to spare because that is one of the primary design functions of the Ventrac.
And one of the main reasons for NOT going with the PT was the lack of ability to try before I buy. They seem like they are helpful, but they won't send a PT for Indiana for me to try, and I can't blame them given their direct to consumer sales approach. But guys like me need a little hand holding and romancing before we give it up!
There is a PT owner who lives about a mile away along the same river I live on, he offered to let me try one of his PT 422s. But it seems like the PT425 is probably the one I'd need/want because of the higher torque wheel motors so trying a PT422 when it will be different than a PT425 seemed sort of pointless, especially since the one I really would like would be a PT180 but with a larger mower deck (but that is not available on that size unit).
The Ventrac 3000 is small in size with 21hp so it is more like a PT422, but with a 10" tighter turning radius than the PT180 and a wheel base that is 12" shorter than the PT180 while the overall length is 10" shorter than the PT180 but only 2" narrower than the PT180 making for a short but wide footprint for stability. It also weighs about 40% less (710 pounds versus 1260 pounds).
The rep I talked to is very confident that it will climb my hill with lots of power to spare because that is one of the primary design functions of the Ventrac.
MossRoad
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<font color="blue"> one of the primary design functions of the Ventrac </font>
That's the problem with trying to find one machine to do everything very well. It is hard. There's much to be said for dedicated machines. The Ventrac is very good at mowing. So add a dirt scoop to it and it is still very good at mowing and OK at moving dirt around. Add a snowblower. It is probably very good at that too. So now you have a really good lawn mower/snow blower that can also move dirt around. You see where I'm going with this. The PT is the same way. It can do most tasks very well, maybe not as good as a dedicated machine, but very close. I don't think there is any one machine that can do it all perfectly, but these articulated machines really do a fantastic job for most applications. The articulated platform is a very versatile base to start with and build from. I think it's here to stay.
That's the problem with trying to find one machine to do everything very well. It is hard. There's much to be said for dedicated machines. The Ventrac is very good at mowing. So add a dirt scoop to it and it is still very good at mowing and OK at moving dirt around. Add a snowblower. It is probably very good at that too. So now you have a really good lawn mower/snow blower that can also move dirt around. You see where I'm going with this. The PT is the same way. It can do most tasks very well, maybe not as good as a dedicated machine, but very close. I don't think there is any one machine that can do it all perfectly, but these articulated machines really do a fantastic job for most applications. The articulated platform is a very versatile base to start with and build from. I think it's here to stay.
toolz_not_toyz
Gold Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( And one of the main reasons for NOT going with the PT was the lack of ability to try before I buy.
)</font>
I think that is problematic. Especially for anyone that absolutely can't make it down to the factory economically.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( But it seems like the PT425 is probably the one I'd need/want because of the higher torque wheel motors so trying a PT422 when it will be different than a PT425 seemed sort of pointless, )</font>
But maybe not. If the 422 can make it up your hill then a 425 would only do it much better. Still, you'd want to add ROPS to the 422.
)</font>
I think that is problematic. Especially for anyone that absolutely can't make it down to the factory economically.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( But it seems like the PT425 is probably the one I'd need/want because of the higher torque wheel motors so trying a PT422 when it will be different than a PT425 seemed sort of pointless, )</font>
But maybe not. If the 422 can make it up your hill then a 425 would only do it much better. Still, you'd want to add ROPS to the 422.
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Bob_Skurka
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<font color="blue"> ( And one of the main reasons for NOT going with the PT was the lack of ability to try before I buy.
)
I think that is problematic. Especially for anyone that absolutely can't make it down to the factory economically.
</font>
I'll actually argue that a bit. I can afford to go to the factory, I am just not willing to buy a machine and THEN find out IF it will work in the situation I need it to work in. I NEED to try it to make sure it works, if it does, I'll buy it. Going to the factory to see and play with and test drive will not prove that the tractor will do what I need done on my land. I need more support than the PT can give, I am NOT faulting PT for not providing what I need, that is their business model and they seem successful at it, it is just not something that makes me comfortable given my situation. If I had a lower grade hill, I might buy one without bothering to test one.
<font color="green"> ( But it seems like the PT425 is probably the one I'd need/want because of the higher torque wheel motors so trying a PT422 when it will be different than a PT425 seemed sort of pointless, )
But maybe not. If the 422 can make it up your hill then a 425 would only do it much better. Still, you'd want to add ROPS to the 422.
</font>
Again, I'd like to make another arguement here. I am looking for the best mowing tractor that will do what I need done, and I want a machine that will NOT be strained. My Cub Cadet makes it up my hill, but it groans and moans and slips all the way up. A PT422 might go up, and a PT425 might go up much better, and that "much better" statement you made is why I would favor the 425 . . . if the 422 strained to make it, then it would very likely wear out prematurely, and that would lead to increased maintainence costs and a wife who complained that I bought her a hunk of junk.
I know that the PT422 is a quality tractor, but I don't think it really is designed for what I need. And in either the case of the 422 or the 425, the turning radius is larger than the Ventrac 3000 which would make it an inferior mowing machine, which is the primary use of the machine I need. And in the case of both units, they weigh considerably more than the Ventrac 3000 so it will take more horsepower to climb the grade I have to deal with WHILE STILL MOWING and the Ventrac 3000 is a near equal in the HP rating while being 40% lighter than the PT422. Consequently, and at least superficially, a 21hp Ventrac can put considerably more HP to the mower deck while climbing a steep hill than a PT422 would be able to do because the PT422's 22hp engine would need more HP to drive its 1260 pounds up the grade while the Ventrac only needs to pull 710# us the same grade (weights are for the tractor only, driver, mower deck, and 12-oz can of soda pop in the cup holder not included)
I am NOT trying to argue which is a better tractor. To be blunt, the Power Trac is probably the FAR BETTER tactor at tractoring. But to be just as blunt, the Ventrac is FAR BETTER as a mowing-hill-climbing-tractor. And since I am buying a mowing-hill-climbing-tractor for the purpose of mowing and climbing a hill, then that takes me to the logical conclusion that I need a Ventrac (or a Steiner for the very same reasons).
)
I think that is problematic. Especially for anyone that absolutely can't make it down to the factory economically.
</font>
I'll actually argue that a bit. I can afford to go to the factory, I am just not willing to buy a machine and THEN find out IF it will work in the situation I need it to work in. I NEED to try it to make sure it works, if it does, I'll buy it. Going to the factory to see and play with and test drive will not prove that the tractor will do what I need done on my land. I need more support than the PT can give, I am NOT faulting PT for not providing what I need, that is their business model and they seem successful at it, it is just not something that makes me comfortable given my situation. If I had a lower grade hill, I might buy one without bothering to test one.
<font color="green"> ( But it seems like the PT425 is probably the one I'd need/want because of the higher torque wheel motors so trying a PT422 when it will be different than a PT425 seemed sort of pointless, )
But maybe not. If the 422 can make it up your hill then a 425 would only do it much better. Still, you'd want to add ROPS to the 422.
</font>
Again, I'd like to make another arguement here. I am looking for the best mowing tractor that will do what I need done, and I want a machine that will NOT be strained. My Cub Cadet makes it up my hill, but it groans and moans and slips all the way up. A PT422 might go up, and a PT425 might go up much better, and that "much better" statement you made is why I would favor the 425 . . . if the 422 strained to make it, then it would very likely wear out prematurely, and that would lead to increased maintainence costs and a wife who complained that I bought her a hunk of junk.
I know that the PT422 is a quality tractor, but I don't think it really is designed for what I need. And in either the case of the 422 or the 425, the turning radius is larger than the Ventrac 3000 which would make it an inferior mowing machine, which is the primary use of the machine I need. And in the case of both units, they weigh considerably more than the Ventrac 3000 so it will take more horsepower to climb the grade I have to deal with WHILE STILL MOWING and the Ventrac 3000 is a near equal in the HP rating while being 40% lighter than the PT422. Consequently, and at least superficially, a 21hp Ventrac can put considerably more HP to the mower deck while climbing a steep hill than a PT422 would be able to do because the PT422's 22hp engine would need more HP to drive its 1260 pounds up the grade while the Ventrac only needs to pull 710# us the same grade (weights are for the tractor only, driver, mower deck, and 12-oz can of soda pop in the cup holder not included)
I am NOT trying to argue which is a better tractor. To be blunt, the Power Trac is probably the FAR BETTER tactor at tractoring. But to be just as blunt, the Ventrac is FAR BETTER as a mowing-hill-climbing-tractor. And since I am buying a mowing-hill-climbing-tractor for the purpose of mowing and climbing a hill, then that takes me to the logical conclusion that I need a Ventrac (or a Steiner for the very same reasons).
The Power Trac is a multi-function machine that will mow except for the slope mowers which specialize in mowing slopes and do it better than anyone. The Ventrac is a mower that will do a couple of other things. After reading your posts, I agree you are not a canidate for a PT. You need someone to hold your hand, and have dealer support, it is obvious that PT makes some machine that would do your job and the only way to determine that is to travel to Tazewell, which has all kinds of hills. A PT will do the same thing on a slope in your back yard as it does on the same degree slope in Tazewell. Since you are not willing to travel there to try one, (you could have been there and back quicker than making all these posts), buy another brand. While you were trying to decide, the sale on 422s is off and all available 425s are sold for the next month.
Tuff luck.
EB
Tuff luck.
EB
bmac
Veteran Member
Come on, EB, lighten up /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif. This has been a great discussion. Seems like Mr. Skurka has been more than thorough and objective in the assessment of his needs and the equipment he thinks will satify those needs. In fact, I think it was one of your fellow PT owners who suggested that the Ventrac might be better for mowing his terrain than the PowerTrac.
toolz_not_toyz
Gold Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Again, I'd like to make another arguement here.)</font>
Hmm. Can't say I really understand why you're making any arguments here. I was writing in general by stating that the only way to generally try an assortment of PT models is to go to the factory.
Also, a 422 is a PT and you were originally looking at the 180 if I recall correctly. So trying out a 422 on your hills might be appropriate even if it is just to judge the machine in general.
In my opinion, if you're land is that problematic maybe you'd be better off with an ATV and a tow behind or hire some goats. I dunno. The whole thing sounds like a death trap to me if the land is that challenging.
And then this is a PT forum so that's great that you've decided on a non-PT tractor but you can't fault people for trying to bring up the good points on PT's. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Hmm. Can't say I really understand why you're making any arguments here. I was writing in general by stating that the only way to generally try an assortment of PT models is to go to the factory.
Also, a 422 is a PT and you were originally looking at the 180 if I recall correctly. So trying out a 422 on your hills might be appropriate even if it is just to judge the machine in general.
In my opinion, if you're land is that problematic maybe you'd be better off with an ATV and a tow behind or hire some goats. I dunno. The whole thing sounds like a death trap to me if the land is that challenging.
And then this is a PT forum so that's great that you've decided on a non-PT tractor but you can't fault people for trying to bring up the good points on PT's. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
MossRoad
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Hey folks. I think Bob shouldn't take a beating for a good thought process. He asked some questions, we gave some answers, he's making a decision he can live with. I, for one, would not want to spend $$$ on a trip to the factory to test drive when I don't know if they have hills that are similar to mine. Bob has already said that he is OK with the PT business model. And he has already said that the PT is a fine machine, but probably not the best machine for his needs. And Ventrac is willing to send one to his house to test. Can't beat that.
As for hand holding by the dealer, he doesn't seem to be the touchy, feely, needy type to me /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
As for hand holding by the dealer, he doesn't seem to be the touchy, feely, needy type to me /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
MossRoad
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<font color="blue"> And then this is a PT forum so that's great that you've decided on a non-PT tractor but you can't fault people for trying to bring up the good points on PT's. </font>
That's true, but he already knows the 180 and 400 series good points. He also has a handle on their limitations as slope mowers.
Our ultimate goal should be to get Bob the best lawn machine for his needs, not convince him to buy a Power Trac. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
That's true, but he already knows the 180 and 400 series good points. He also has a handle on their limitations as slope mowers.
Our ultimate goal should be to get Bob the best lawn machine for his needs, not convince him to buy a Power Trac. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
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Bob_Skurka
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Toolz . . . Perhaps "argument" was too strong a word, but I think you will find that I have come to admire the PT equipment and have been very complimentary of it. And I think that you will find, if you search some other forums where new members have posted inquiries about what tractor to buy, that I have now begun to suggest the PT equipment as versitile and cost effective. Unfortunately, after much debate and help from PT owners, I have come to the conclusion that the PT is not what I need (and I tried).
As for my land, the problem areas lie in the the fact that a creek meets a river and the area around that intersection has steep but beautiful hills. There is a 60' elevation change from the front of the lot to the valley floor. The lot can be divided into 3 sections, the upper lot, which is lightly rolling land; the valley, which is basically flat, and the transition areas which vary from gentle slopes through woods to near drop offs. The house was build at the intersection of the 2 ridges and is near the top of the property elevation. One of my neighbors calls my property the "lot from hell" because of the special way we have been forced to lay out our plans. The house is up the hill, but the pool is 150' west at the bottom, along with the pool house. My daughters playhouse sits about 130' north in the valley down the steepest path we mow. Where the house sits is partially visible to the road, but only becuase I had a bulldozer cut through the hill for my driveway instead of driving up 8' only to come back down 12' to where the house sits, so we find people stopping at the end of the drive just to get a glimps of the house.
EB . . . GET A GRIP. Maybe you need to read what some of your fellow PT owners have said about PT equipment on hills!
<font color="red"> I had to sell the 425 because I had problems with getting it up the hill - not traction - it was very stable - but it did not have enough wheel torque </font>
and then there is <font color="green"> The PT is a great utility machine and will do many different things. Thats why I purchased mine, but it will never replace my mowers. </font>
or finally <font color="purple"> I think you have more of an extreme situation with your hills than I will ever run into. So far, it sounds like the Ventrac will handle the hills better than the PT. I've never seen a Ventrac in person, but have never heard anything bad about them, only good. And the few people that have seen both machines say the Ventrac is a better mower </font>
I think it is great that you love your equipment, and I came to this forum for help to try to find out if PT would work for me. I think, with the help of several PT owners, that it will not be the best choice. As for me flying out to the factory to find out first hand, personally I think that is foolish and a waste of money. If I can have a dealer bring me, at no charge, a piece of equipment to test on my property, so I can decide if it will do what I need done, then why the heck would I waste time and money just to see if something MAY work, because if it does not, then the money spent was simply thrown away. No thank you. It is not my tuff luck. It is common sense that I explore ALL VIABLE equipment on my property.
To ALL: At this point I don't know what machine I will buy. The Ventrac, at least on paper, does everything I want, and then some. The Power Trac seems like it may work, but there seems to be reasonable doubt as to which model, if any is appropriate, and they are larger than I would like and don't turn as tight as I would like. So if the Ventrac 3000 turns out not to be suitable, I will look at the Steiner and the Ventrac traditional (?) articulated tractors. In any case, I appreciate all the help that you guys have given me. Thank you all.
As for my land, the problem areas lie in the the fact that a creek meets a river and the area around that intersection has steep but beautiful hills. There is a 60' elevation change from the front of the lot to the valley floor. The lot can be divided into 3 sections, the upper lot, which is lightly rolling land; the valley, which is basically flat, and the transition areas which vary from gentle slopes through woods to near drop offs. The house was build at the intersection of the 2 ridges and is near the top of the property elevation. One of my neighbors calls my property the "lot from hell" because of the special way we have been forced to lay out our plans. The house is up the hill, but the pool is 150' west at the bottom, along with the pool house. My daughters playhouse sits about 130' north in the valley down the steepest path we mow. Where the house sits is partially visible to the road, but only becuase I had a bulldozer cut through the hill for my driveway instead of driving up 8' only to come back down 12' to where the house sits, so we find people stopping at the end of the drive just to get a glimps of the house.
EB . . . GET A GRIP. Maybe you need to read what some of your fellow PT owners have said about PT equipment on hills!
<font color="red"> I had to sell the 425 because I had problems with getting it up the hill - not traction - it was very stable - but it did not have enough wheel torque </font>
and then there is <font color="green"> The PT is a great utility machine and will do many different things. Thats why I purchased mine, but it will never replace my mowers. </font>
or finally <font color="purple"> I think you have more of an extreme situation with your hills than I will ever run into. So far, it sounds like the Ventrac will handle the hills better than the PT. I've never seen a Ventrac in person, but have never heard anything bad about them, only good. And the few people that have seen both machines say the Ventrac is a better mower </font>
I think it is great that you love your equipment, and I came to this forum for help to try to find out if PT would work for me. I think, with the help of several PT owners, that it will not be the best choice. As for me flying out to the factory to find out first hand, personally I think that is foolish and a waste of money. If I can have a dealer bring me, at no charge, a piece of equipment to test on my property, so I can decide if it will do what I need done, then why the heck would I waste time and money just to see if something MAY work, because if it does not, then the money spent was simply thrown away. No thank you. It is not my tuff luck. It is common sense that I explore ALL VIABLE equipment on my property.
To ALL: At this point I don't know what machine I will buy. The Ventrac, at least on paper, does everything I want, and then some. The Power Trac seems like it may work, but there seems to be reasonable doubt as to which model, if any is appropriate, and they are larger than I would like and don't turn as tight as I would like. So if the Ventrac 3000 turns out not to be suitable, I will look at the Steiner and the Ventrac traditional (?) articulated tractors. In any case, I appreciate all the help that you guys have given me. Thank you all.
Charlie_Iliff
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<font color="red"> I think Bob shouldn't take a beating for a good thought process. </font>
What, you want we should go back to beating on Bubenberg, or something? It's precisely because of a good thought process that Bob deserves a beating. Got no place here. Next, he's probably going to claim the world's round or some nonsense like that. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
What, you want we should go back to beating on Bubenberg, or something? It's precisely because of a good thought process that Bob deserves a beating. Got no place here. Next, he's probably going to claim the world's round or some nonsense like that. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
bubenberg
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- Tractor
- PT425, Kubota L2050, 3 hydrostatic Exmark mowers. Z21D Kubota ZTR, 2 Kunz acrease wing mowers, 1 rough cut kunz mower, one vintage grasshopper ztr, one vintage gravely ztr, various large garden tracto
based on your shouting (BOLO) statement on the bottom of your last post ..... i think it is time to move this discussion onto "other brands" .... right .... Mr. Moderator .... if you want a hill mower pt got one so does aebi .... so do other companies up to about 34 degrees. Power Trac and Aebi are the only two that at this time can satisfy the steeper hills ... so let's take this discussion to other brands ALREADY.
Mr. Moderator: Let's move the discussion to the proper part since it seems you have made your decision ... won't talk about that you have not taken a trip and tried on the steep hills of Tazwell, to see if this is what you are looking for: or go home to my place in Switzerland and mow on some of those hills and spend $60-80,000 for what you could get for around $20,000.
i think you are practicing for a debate turnament, which is not TBN, not the sub forum PT. debating like you guys have ... in academic terms will not cut any grass on any hills, i both have the academic training and the practical grass cutting background to tell you, let's move it over.... PLEASE ... and i will even contribute my two cents over there, in other brands.
Mr. Moderator: Let's move the discussion to the proper part since it seems you have made your decision ... won't talk about that you have not taken a trip and tried on the steep hills of Tazwell, to see if this is what you are looking for: or go home to my place in Switzerland and mow on some of those hills and spend $60-80,000 for what you could get for around $20,000.
i think you are practicing for a debate turnament, which is not TBN, not the sub forum PT. debating like you guys have ... in academic terms will not cut any grass on any hills, i both have the academic training and the practical grass cutting background to tell you, let's move it over.... PLEASE ... and i will even contribute my two cents over there, in other brands.
