Steiner Front-wheel-drive versus PT AWD

[FOURTEEN]

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How about a Grasshopper for mostly mowing????

http://www.grasshoppermower.com/03/products/midmount/200/200_main.html

Great machines, if mowing is your primary use!!



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[Bob_Skurka]

As stated earlier, I have steep hills. Grasshoppers and other similar units would simply tumble down the hills end over end and probably kill the drive. Those types of units are designed for flat ground and smooth lawns. I have neither. It seems like a couple times a year I read about someone who drove a ZTR into a pond because the bank was too steep for the mower, more often than not they fish the operator out dead. I actually like ZTR units, I just can't use one on my property.

 

[eambrose]

Charlie - great catch - I forgot about them (AEBI) - that three wheel unit is pretty neat and I bet that will do the hill without a problem - it has three wheel drive - I don't think it will have the hill climbing ability of the Ventrac (or steiner) but it probably comes close. I'll be curious to hear your research on those units - I'll bet they are rrrrreally expensive.

One other one is a Company called National - you probably won't want one because it is a reel mower but they claim

"if you can walk up a hill without using your hands a National will mow it" http://www.nationalmower.com/index.htm National
they are really, really stable - I actually owned a Hydro 70 (the three wheel unit which is by far the least capable on slopes and it went up, down and across my 22 degree cliff no problem)

I love they way reels cut and the bueatiful patterns you can do - but in the end I wanted to be able to vacuum the grass which is difficult with a reel. These reels are heavy duty for mowing the roughs and can take the abuse of mowing 6-8 hours a day every day. I mean these are really heavy steel - if I had 4-5 acres of lawn to mow (not pasture) I would choose one of these.

The 68 and the 8400 are the billy goats I think - the 8400 has a super steering making it turn really sharp - watch the video. The reason they are so good on hills is the super low center of gravity, the wings and they way they apply traction - believe me I tested these - you won't believe what they will do. At the dealer I climbed and mowed a hill that was insane

But you probably don't want a reel - but I thought I would throw it out. But with an 84 inch cut you get done in a hurry

 

[eambrose]

One more for you - it is a ZTR which I know you don't want but here it is - but they just came out with it and they claim 25 plus degree slope performance - most ZTR MAX at 12-15degress - I talked to the Company - he says they have test hills out back well over 25degrees - he said they do it with weight and low center of gravity - apparently they did a lot of R&D Hustler[/url]
http://www.hustlerturfequipment.com/products/superatz.html

 

[bubenberg]

don't go on too steep hills with those things. they become sleds on the way down. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Ok guys, I did more studying and more looking.

The LOGICAL choice seems to be the Ventrac 3000.

The EMOTIONAL choice seems to be the PT425. The PT will PROBABLY climb the worst hill. And working on the assumption that it will do what I need it to do, then the emotion kicks in. The PT 425 is simply the most flexible of the machines with capabilities none of the other machines could match (any of the Steiners or Ventracs excluding their TOP end units). The PT 425 could, at some later date, serve as a loader, phd, snow blower, etc. The Ventrac 3000 could serve as a snow blower. The larger Ventracs and Steiners could do those other things (need the largest to get a loader) and the price then becomes pretty crazy given that I already have 2 tractors with snow blowers, one with a loader and back hoe, 2 that will use a PHD, etc. Like I said, this is pure emotion here, I like the Ventrac 3000 but it is LIMITED for FUTURE UNANTICIPATED GUY STUFF. The PT could start as a mower and expand, but it won't be as good a mower.

As I am buying a unit my wife will use, both fit the bill. Easy to operate, easy to mow with, able to handle the terrain.

Again, logically I am drawn to the Ventrac. I actually like it as long as I don't consider the limitations. I have the same limitations with my Cub Cadet, and a few more, but . . .

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

Enough.
Buy the Power Trac.
It's better.
Otherwise, MossRoad, Bubenberg and Pajoube would have Ventracs and be moaning about them over in the Other Brands forum
You're not mowing a golf green. You've ruled out a walk-behind, which is the safest, so get the one that will mount a mini-hoe and a grapple bucket just in case you need them, and maybe a winch to raise and lower a mower on a cable on the really steep stuff.
/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[JackIL]

Bob,

I recommend that you AND YOUR WIFE take a test drive on slopes.

JackIL

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Charlie . . . thanks for the tuff love routine. But I am again leaning toward logic and the Ventrac 3000. Less versitile than a PT but better for what I need.

And in looking at the PT price list again, and looking at the cost of the attachments, the Ventrac 3000 with a 60" deck is a shade under $10,000. The PT425 with a similar size deck would be a good deal more and be a less capable mower.

The PT would give me greater long term flexibility IF I would chose to expand its role, but after checking my implements for the other tractors I already have, there is probably no rational reason to expand the unit beyond a mowing machine. And the PT implements are very exensive and not interchangable with my other equipment. So really the long term flexibility I might gain from the PT is really just theoretical, and probably would never be utilized. I have no use for a mini-hoe given I have a back hoe. I don't have a grapple bucket for the FEL, but have not come up with a need for one. I don't like the arrangement of a front mount tiller (unless you drove in reverse) becuase you are driving over the tilled soil and I am looking at buying a tiller for my 3pt now as well. I've been convinced the PT is a better Post Hole Digger, but again I already have one of those for the 3pt and don't do commercial work with it so it is fine with me. I'm building a dual tank 3pt spray rig that will work with my other equipment. So all in all, the PT seems to be more expensive than the Ventrac, but not as good a mower, and in real terms, not something that will be used for anything other than mowing.

I'll keep you informed, but I am now STRONGLY leaning toward the Ventrac. Most likely with 60" mowing deck, but maybe with the 52". And maybe with a slip scoop attachement as well, I think my wife might actually find that a useful tool for hauling some things around the yard when she is not mowing. I am also wondering about adding a ROPS cage, not becuase of a roll over, but because it would be a great place to add some accessories like a modest size garden tool basket behind the seat and to mount a couple AUX lights up high for a better view at dusk.

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

<font color="red">I am also wondering about adding a ROPS cage, not becuase of a roll over </font>

Whatever you get, make sure it has the ROPS, precisely because of a rollover. Any machine you have considered may slide, turn and trip, no matter how careful you are. I haven't flipped one, but I've slid downhill without ROPS with no more control than a hockey puck - it makes you a believer. A couple of years ago, a guy flipped our JD 2240 with ROPS. He was going straight up a steep slope. It hit a slick spot, turned 90 degrees to the right, slid downhill and tripped. He wasn't hurt, but sure could have been. Anything can go over on a steep hill.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Charlie, I probably should have been more clear in what I wrote about the ROPS. I actually am a believer in those things, it is one reason why I never recommend the grey market tractors to people.

I just looked at the configuration of the Ventrac (and the same goes for PT) and was trying to figure out how to carry some garden tools or whatever while riding the tractor. Because of the articulation, and because of the rear mounted motor, it would be possible to mount a tool basket directly on top of the motor's cover, but that might not be prudent because of heat. If one wanted to attach a basket or box of reasonable size (2+ bushels) on a PT or Ventrac, logically the box could be attached to the back of the ROPS (if the ROPS is attached behind the drivers seat) and suspended OVER the motor housing. The box/basket would have to be removable for access to the motor. Also by attaching it to the ROPS, it would move with the driver, but if it was attached to the motor housing, it would potentially hit the ROPS, the back of the drivers seat, etc as the tractor was turned from side to side if the mounting was not set far enough back.

I gues I look at things and think about how they COULD be, rather than how they ARE. That may be why I keep messing around with my tractors. I've added a large tool box, 5 lights, switches, etc. I'm in the process of adding a cigarette lighter as a power outlet, and couldn't find a spray rig I liked so I am just starting to build a Dual Tank spray rig with gun type spray nozzles that will spray liquids up to 35'. As I look at the PTs and the Ventrac, I say that is nice . . . but wouldn't it be great if only . . . .

 

[eambrose]

Bob - I think in the end - either tractor will work fine for you -
Steiner has that box mounted on the back of the 430max
for tools - check it out - maybe you can buy it and stick it on the Ventrac if you go with that one since they are really very similar tractors - heck maybe you can spray it green or black and stick it in the PT if you go with that one

 

[MossRoad]

<font color="blue"> That's a challenge. Press Aebi and see if it interrupts your thought process. </font>

Stir it up some more, Charlie... stir it up some more! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[MossRoad]

<font color="blue"> There is actually a dealer in Indiana, although I have no idea where that town is they are located in. </font>

Between Indianapolis and Louisville...

 

[MossRoad]

Bob, I like the way you are reasoning through this decision. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

One of my goals was to find one machine that would do it all so that I could elminate many of my smaller yard implements, such as lawn mower, snow blower, etc... and my larger tractor, which had become too large for the jobs at hand. I only wanted one power plant to maintain.

I think you have more of an extreme situation with your hills than I will ever run into. So far, it sounds like the Ventrac will handle the hills better than the PT. I've never seen a Ventrac in person, but have never heard anything bad about them, only good. And the few people that have seen both machines say the Ventrac is a better mower. I think the PT is a more versatile machine than the Ventrac, but if it won't climb your hills, what good is it to you, right? You really need to test them in person to make that decision before you buy. As you said, the PT425 PROBABLY will climb the hill, but what if it won't? OUCH! Then we'd all feel like mud /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

If you already have a larger tractor to do your tractoring and an older cub that does the mowing, let's re-visit that again...

Why are you replacing the machine that works?

<font color="blue"> my current Cub Cadet (which I have no complaints about, but it is simply not designed to do what I use it for). </font>

You have no complaints about it. Is it wearing out, or do you feel it is dangerous on the slopes?

If it were me, being the frugal type, if it works, but is wearing out, consider restoring it to near original condition. If it is dangerous, replace it with a safer machine.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Moss

Several reasons for moving the Cub Cadet out of the favored mowing position and picking the Ventrac (so far).

The Cub is a good mower for most areas, but doesn't turn quite as tight as I'd like.

It gets the job done, but not as well or as fast as something else better suited would do it.

I figure I have a couple more years left in it the way I push it. It really strains on the hill side.

I have money to spend this year, I don't know if I'll have $10,000 sitting around in 2 years, and I only buy what I have cash on hand for so I would never consider financing a car, truck, tractor, mower or other toy.

I have need for the snowblowing capabilities of the Cub Cadet at my office. Using the Cub as a Snowblower will extend the useful life of it for another decade or more with modest care.

I have a flat grass field behind my office that is about 1 acre, it needs to be mowed twice a year. The Cub can also take over that duty with ease.

The Cub tears up the grass on my slope with the wheel slippage, even with wheel weights & tire chains.

4 wheel drive articulated units won't tear up the grass.

Slope mowers are more stable than the Cub on my slopes and designed to climb the hills.

The Ventrac has an extremely tight turning radius and will mow around the landscaping without doing the drive-in-then-back-up and drive-in-to back-up manuvers that the Cub Cadet has to do (which also tears up the yard and also is a slow process for mowing around tight radius curves).

The Ventrac is about a foot shorter than a PT425 saving me garage space.

The Ventrac 3000 has a tighter turning radius than the PT425.

The Ventrac costs about $700 less than a PT425. (Plus delivery cost savings in addition to that).

Now if the PT422 could navigate the slopes without wearing out the wheel motors, that would tip the economics to the PT units, but as has been discussed, it uses smaller wheels and lower torque wheel motors and MIGHT do the job, but if it does, then the question would be "for how long" would it continue to do the job? My Cub does the job of mowing the slope, it just does it badly . . . but that is better than the John Deere's we tested that wouldn't even climb the hill!!! All that said, I have not tested a Ventrac yet, if it fails the slope test then I'll probably start the process over, but it will probably be limited to the Steiner & Ventrac traditional style articulated tractors because there is no doubt that those will climb the hill and mow the lawn, they just cost more and won't mow quite as quickly as the Ventrac 3000, which is designed more as a mower than a tractor.

Despite the fact that I am spending a lot of money for a lawn mower, I am known for being frugal, because I only buy what I need and only when I can afford it. I will continue to use the Cub, but in a place better suited for its capabilities, and without the need for a restoration job. I want to cut down the time spent taking care of my property, so the right tool for the right job seems like the right answer to accomplish the job, better, faster & safer.

So that is my logic.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Moss . . . one more thing. I think I am fairly **** retentive and that is why I go through such a painful and intense thought process.

 

[Bob999]

<font color="red"> Bob Skurka said: 4 wheel drive articulated units won't tear up the grass. </font>

My experience generally supports your statement with an important caveat: on steep slopes my PT1845 will sometimes slide when working cross slope and spin a wheel when working up or down slope and when it does it tears up the grass. I would also note that I sometimes had the same experience with the commercial walk behind I previously used.

When you say the Cub Cadet with chains tears up the grass I suspect that it is caused by wheel spin or sliding. I don't think an articulated tractor will solve that problem, even if it is 4wd.

I would strongly urge that you arrange for a demonstration on your property prior to purchase of whatever machine you finally decide is right.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Bob999 . . . I fully intend to test drive the unit on my property.

I suppose nothing will COMPLETELY eliminate the slippage problems, but the 4wd articulated units will be a practical solution to dramatically minimize it.

 

[MossRoad]

That is a great thought process. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I took a long time to settle on the tractor that was right for our needs, too. If I'm gonna spend that kind of money, I want to make the right decision.

So when are you going to test drive some tractors? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif