South west PA and steep hills with a SCUT?

[Rock Crawler]

I have a 15 acre total size property with 3 that are grass. The general slope that we are built on is 15-17 degrees with steeper areas that are right near 45 degrees.

Since 1990 we have been playing around with different things, first was a Kawasaki Bayou 300 4x4 ATX with a 54" Kimpex 12HP pusher mower. That was tough! It cut great and had great power, but the weight was so much that going sideways you always had to be turned uphill to fight the pull of the deck, this caused the grass to get tore up and streaked. The ATV transmission could not take the weight and hills and failed 2 times before we gave up.

Sears Garden tractor, 24HP Tecumseh, it was a lower end with small drive axle and 46" deck. It was okay at first, but the transaxle could only do the steeper slopes when first started and the fluid was cold/thicker. The POS engine died after 5 summers of mowing.

2010 Sears Excellerator GT - Arguably the biggest, baddest, and bestest tractor ever to set in a Sears store. This Husky built garden tractor is truly a beast, with a Hydro Gear 730 rear axle and 26 HP Kohler Courage, it has never ending power. But the engine is a Courage (not a contractor grade, rated EPA class C for 500 hours median engine life) and after 7 summers the transaxle is starting to give it up. Where this thing used to crush the hills at speed (8.5 MPH max speed, and it was close even up hills at first!) the transaxle is giving up a good bit of its power now when going up.

I run this Excellerator with the biggest wheel weights I could get, fluid filled rear tires, and chains. That allows me to get up the hills while mowing... often with the front axle bouncing lightly up and down as I balance my weight to keep it on the edge of a wheelie. My property has no flat ground :-(

My local mower/tractor (Town and Country, Rochester PA) shop says that a zero turn will not work on my yard, he knows where I live. He says that his Mahindra Emax or Max 4x4 would work well.

Vernon Del out in Calcutta Ohio suggested a John Deer Garden tractor that makes my Craftsman look like a kids toy.... and it is 4x4. But he also suggested the Massey Ferguson GC1705/1715.

So both folks had a SCUT as a recommendation, and honestly... I have been salivating over the concept of a bucket and backhoe for years. I don't "need" it, but holly cow batman... I want!

So the Massey Ferguson GC1720 turns out to be cheaper than a similarly equipped Mahindra Emax. The Mahindra has teeth above the backhoe bucket that would grab a rock or tree, that looks nasty cool! But overall, I like the overall looks and weld quality of the Massey Ferguson better.

My biggest issue is life expectancy of these $17,000 things on hills like I have. If these can't deal for 30 years living on my hill side, I may as well go back to Sears/Husky and spend $4,000 every 5-8 years on a boring garden tractor. But if these SCUT machines are really so much more robust that they can haul their fat butts around these hills for 100-150 hours a year for 20-30 years... I am very interested.

So my goals are to cut my 3 acres 1 to 2 times a week. I spend 4 to 4.5 hours doing this now with my wife on the tractor while I am trimming and push mowing the really steep stuff. The loader and backhoe are more for fun... I shoot on my property and can use them to fashion a better berm to shoot into. We have a camping area down back with ATV/Jeep trails and get water ruts that are tough to repair... with this maybe I can get down into the woods and back out using the R4 tires?

That Vernon Del guys John Deer massive garden tractor would likely be all I would ever need for cutting alone... but at $12,000 for a garden tractor I can easily start to convince myself that a SCUT with loader/backhoe/mid mount mower is worth going to. Suddenly mulch is fun, cutting trees is MORE fun, I can dig like a child any time I wish! I have a wide/long blacktop driveway as well, but I use a Yamaha Rhino 660 with a 60" Warn plow to remove snow on that, and let me say..... That is a snow moving beast! 11 years old and 900 hours on it, I have only changed the battery 1 time so far. But I can hit 18" wet snow and toss it like nothing with the plow angled. I can not imagine the tractor being as fast as the Rhino for that, so I have no plans of snow removal with a 5 or 10 MPH tractor when I can hit that at 20 MPH on the Rhino!

So let me know what you think about using a SCUT on sloped terrain, good idea or not?
Keep throwing away Craftsman/Husky tractors?
Go buy a boring but monstrous JD Garden Tractor?
Is there a general life expectancy of these various SCUT diesel engines and Hydrostatic systems? Like 2,000 hrs, or maybe 10,000 hours?


The 3 closest brands available to me that are not of the "big 3" are LS at 1.5 hours, Vernon Del at 1 hour away with MF (and JD as well as NH) and finally Town and Country at 10 miles away with Mahindra and Cub Cadet. The 10 miles vs 1 HR vs 1.5 HR is not a huge deal, I would really hope to not be making periodic trips to meet these people.... If these are true working class machines, I would expect to buy it and do my annual fluids/filters, mid season blade sharpening (at 40 or so hours) and that would be it unless something broke.

 

[atomchaser]

A diesel SCUT is going to last a lot longer and be much more capable than a gas garden tractor. Mowing 45 degree slopes with anything is tricky. A zero turn would be downright dangerous on that. A ditch or boom mower on a tractor that can handle it would be best if you can swing the price tag.

 

[cqaigy2]

power-trac.com has slope rated tractors that can mow 45 degree slopes, and you put the other attachments on it, including that FEL your wanting. They even have their own forum on here.

 

[Rock Crawler]

power-trac.com has slope rated tractors that can mow 45 degree slopes, and you put the other attachments on it, including that FEL your wanting. They even have their own forum on here.

Pushing at $17,000 for the Massey Ferguson or Mahindra is a click past my wife's limit... Going into specialty equipment that increases in price and takes away my backhoe would be insurmountable .

I'm assuming that machine your referring to is going to be notably more expensive and not have the FEL and more importantly... The backhoe. I would buy a MMM/backhoe combo of it existed for cheaper. The FEL is not that interesting to me as I can't imagine that you can really cut in and dig with it on a 1400 lb machine. I don't have a gravel driveway, so the hoe and then my Rhino can likely do everything I would need. The bucket... Meh.... It comes with it so I'll take it

 

[dieselcrawler]

Even if you spent your 'throw-away mower' budget of $4k on a used version of the scut's you mention, and plan on doing your own maintenance, look hard at something like my Kubota BX1800. I only gave $4k for it about 2 years ago, with less than 900 hours on it... guy down the road traded his in at 3600 hours, when the dealer talked him into new vs repair a trans leak, the only problem he ever had. BX is a tough line of machines. Diesel, 4x4, hydrostatic, and affordable. And even with the R1 ag tires, not turf tires, doesn't chew up the lawn but climbs hills like crazy w/o chains or weights. Tires are loaded.

 

[corl]

I live in southeast Pa and have steep hillside to mow. I have had a Kubota F2100 (front mounted mower with 4 WD) It is 28 years old and has over 2400 hours on it. I have seen a F2100 with 6000 hrs that is still working daily. The only real problem is that the deck is rusting away from the bottom. It still works great and I only mow up and down on the steep parts. I also have a Kubota MX5100 4X4 with a 7 ft finishing mower that works as well. My experience with the diesel engine and hydrostatic drive has been positive in both machines.

 

[Rock Crawler]

AtomChaser.... Yea, your talking full sized farm equipment or DOT equipment. I have 9 foot tall garages, so I can easily fit a SCUT or a CUT, but I don't have (or want!) a barn ;-)

My thing is that I can just keep buying higher end retail/home-owner grade garden tractors at 3 units and 15-20 years of service for the price ($12,000) of one high end JD garden tractor.... that will supposedly deliver "lifetime purchase" service life, or for another $4,000 or so I can maybe have the SCUT package that fills out a toy list really well while also possibly doing a better job cutting grass on the slopes than anything I have ever used before and for longer than anything else... or at least for the 30+ years (I am 46 years old) that the guy says that the JD Garden would give.

That is the big unknown to me... How do the SCUT units go up hills? Are the hydrostatic units in them far more robust and long lasting in that weight/power of a vehicle than my Hydro-Gear G730 is in that sub 900 lb tractor (with added weight/fluid) with it's power on these hills? I know a Courage engine at nearly 600 hours is walking on thin ice, so for once I found a Garden tractor that the hydro made it out to where the cheap engine will likely bury this thing 6 feet under, and I did it at a great price on sale for around $1,000 off of the near $4,000 retail. But you can not buy a tractor in that price range today with that axle that I am aware of.

I would really like to one and done it.... get the tool and the toy.... I mean, honestly I do have a raging woody for the Massey Ferguson GC1720 set up. That thing looks like to much fun to be legal! But... I read posts on this and another forum about not being able move on hills and moving very slow at best. I would not like that, my craftsman does slow down on steep up hills, but everywhere else I can lean in on 7-8 mph and let it eat as long as I'm not lazy and allow the grass to get to high.

It's a tough situation, I know. If money were falling off of the trees out back I would get a arm mounted deck like the DOT use along the roads. But that would be a massive investment. And not a fun one.
Logic says go buy $3,000 - $4,000 garden tractors, whatever has the biggest Hydro Gear unit in it for the dollar, and look for a Command engine as well.... Run them to death and toss them.
Emotion says go kill 2 birds with one stone and end up with a fun as heck toy that also will easily handle this yard/grass....

I can't even imagine the dumb stuff I would do if I had a backhoe! I can get into so much trouble.... I am almost giddy in anticipation! My wife will HATE this thing!

 

[tractorshopper]

View attachment 518607

I have rear tires filled and side hill mow this spot. I know pictures aren't always great to show exactly comparing one property to another, but I have side hilled steeper than this at my other property quite a bit going slowly so I don't hit a bump or dip or whatever and the SCUT is still stable. This was my BX2370. I now have a BX2380 that for whatever reason feels even a little more stable than the 2370, but either one felt fine at this angle.

In this picture, I had just sowed more grass so didn't park the tractor side hill in the photo, but this is what I regularly mow every week.

SCUTs have 4WD and it makes a huge difference in ability to climb, turn, keep traction, etc. I used to have a JD L118 Lawn tractor and would have never side-hilled this and it's hydrostat struggled and spun on my lesser hills. My BX doesn't struggle or spin anywhere I mow with it. The difference between a gas lawn tractor and SCUT is not even comparable.

All that said, do not mow with your back hoe or loader on as they will very possibly adversely affect your center of gravity on the hills. I always remove my loader and whatever rear attachment is on before I mow.

 

[tractorshopper]

Don't know why my picture didn't work. Will try again. Also, to your question about the hydrostat on a SCUT vs lawn tractor, there is literally no comparison. Two completely different worlds.

 

[Rock Crawler]

Don't know why my picture didn't work. Will try again. Also, to your question about the hydrostat on a SCUT vs lawn tractor, there is literally no comparison. Two completely different worlds.

View attachment 518609

Thank you, yes that side angle is starting to get some lean on, but honestly... the 45ｰ part of the yard over at the far end (pictures in post #1) you would have to go straight up and back down in reverse or you would likely die a horrible death after trying to side hill it... I mean, I could be wrong? But I really don't think any sit-on-top machine is going to side mow that hill. I would never drive my ATV or my Rhino across that, you would be asking for an accident.

My biggest fear that I think I have articulated at least 2 times before in this thread is about the life of the hydro systems. The transmission/hydro system will be taking a beating and work hard being that there does not exist a semi level spot of ground within 30 miles of the Pittsburgh Pa area. You going up or your going down... or your floating level in a river. Car tires don't last hear like in most of the country. Fuel economy sucks here compared to most of the country. Lawn and Garden tractor hydro units start to whine loudly and stop working fairly quick here compared to the rest of the country. These are facts of life :-(

One topic that I do not see folks comparing on these sub compacts is the individual hydro unit, axle unit and general drivetrain component list and determine who uses the very best rated parts. When you look at Hydr Gear or Tuff Torq units in Yard or in Garden tractors you start to realize that not all Garden or Yard tractors are created equally. Some are built with the bigger and higher rated parts and others are built around much smaller/weaker/cheaper axles/transmissions. I would assume that between Massey, LS, Kubota, Deere, Mahindra and New Holland Sub Compacts that there has to varying levels of drive train components available to the manufactures?

Another assumption I have is that these will all be sourced with higher end contractor/professional engines rather than retail/consumer grade junk like my Kohler Courage that has an EPA median hours to failure rating of 500 hours? 500 hours of trouble free service does not impress me, I want to hear about 5,000 hours of trouble free service, or even 10,000 hours.

 

[tractorshopper]

All I can say about the hydro systems is that I've never had a problem with any of the 3 tractors I've owned now. People put many many hours on these things and I do hope someone with an older machine will chime in. I can tell you these are small, but they are real tractors and very high quality. Nothing like lawn tractors of any brand in any regard at all. My tractor will climb some gnarly stuff.

 

[Deere Dude]

I would think a John Deere X7XX something would work nice, maybe one with 4wd. I also put fluid in the tires and I have 2 sets of cast iron weights on the wheels. For hills like that I would run with chains on and I had that until I bought a house with a flat lawn.

They have a much lower profile and less prone to tipping that SCUTs. They can have bullit proof Yanmar diesels which are of the same caliber as the bigger tractors and the hydrostatic transmission is a beast.

They can be found used for 6-8000. I would get a new one but for someone squeamish about a new 12,000 garden tractor, good used ones are out there to be had. I just looked.

I don't know the angle of the hill next to my house but the trail up is dirt. The front of the tractor bobs up at every little bump, but still goes up with ease. I don't have chains on anymore so I don't go up when it is wet or I would be sliding through the woods to the barn unless a tree would stop me first.

I don't mow it but if your lawn is anything as steep as my hill the X7XX is the only GT I would even consider using full time. My X7XX is 2 wheel drive and going sideways on the hill that steep is doable but a 4 wd for going sideways would definitely help. I can't imaging a CUT or a SCUT with a high profile working in those conditions.

 

[Rock Crawler]

I would think a John Deere X7XX something would work nice, maybe one with 4wd. I also put fluid in the tires and I have 2 sets of cast iron weights on the wheels. For hills like that I would run with chains on and I had that until I bought a house with a flat lawn.

They have a much lower profile and less prone to tipping that SCUTs. They can have bullit proof Yanmar diesels which are of the same caliber as the bigger tractors and the hydrostatic transmission is a beast.

They can be found used for 6-8000. I would get a new one but for someone squeamish about a new 12,000 garden tractor, good used ones are out there to be had. I just looked.

I don't know the angle of the hill next to my house but the trail up is dirt. The front of the tractor bobs up at every little bump, but still goes up with ease. I don't have chains on anymore so I don't go up when it is wet or I would be sliding through the woods to the barn unless a tree would stop me first.

I don't mow it but if your lawn is anything as steep as my hill the X7XX is the only GT I would even consider using full time. My X7XX is 2 wheel drive and going sideways on the hill that steep is doable but a 4 wd for going sideways would definitely help. I can't imaging a CUT or a SCUT with a high profile working in those conditions.

The Deere X7?? series 4x4 diesel is what the fellow from Vernon Del recommended as a very high quality, very long lasting and extremely well cutting option for $12,000. He suggested that garden tractor (on steroids!) would be a lifetime purchase and provide amazing cut quality compared to my retail store stamped deck... and cut it faster, safer and for the rest of my mortal life as long as I maintained the unit properly.

LOL, and I get it... I know he (and you) are correct in that this tractor is a beast and that it would replace my aging Craftsman and I would never again need to shop for a tractor..... But then there is that super cool fun side of having the backhoe and bucket to play with!

That 700 series Deere at $12K is what got me originally thinking along the slippery slope.... If I spend 12K... why not look at 12.5K for a Massey (or similar) sub compact with front bucket... But if I am going to spend $12.5K.... why not spend $18.5K on one with all of that and the very useful backhoe!? And honestly.... I have even started loosing my mind a couple times and started thinking about going up a level to a compact! Not because I need it. Just because... well.... you know. It's kind of how men are. Buy that big truck, get the big tractor. Buy the .45 pistol. Put bigger tires on the truck. It goes on and on.

 

[plowhog]

I own a Husqvarna GT48DXLS riding mower/lawn tractor. It's a great machine and I use it on my flat level lawn. For about $3k you can't find any other machine that has a Kawasaki engine, K66 transaxle, and locking differential. In a league of its own it seems. Might be a match for some lower end needs you have.

I also own a Massey GC1710 TLB, similar to the 1720 you want. Very slight differences between these two models. I use the Massey to brush hog several acres. As good as the Husqvarna is, there is simply no comparison in how robust the Massey is compared to it. Which makes sense when you compare price. The power, diesel engine, and overall strength and quality of the Massey is impressive. It has done everything I have wanted it to do, and then some. I added a "thumb" to the backhoe so I can also pick up and move large boulders. And added hooks to the front bucket, as I find myself often chaining up something, lifting it, and moving it around. And on and on and on. The utility of a SCUT is tremendous. I can't comment on longevity of the hydro, as I only have about 80 hours on it. But I don't think I've heard of any hydro failures or problems.

In several years of attending this forum, I believe I read just one poster who complained about the Massey not traveling uphill at high speed in high gear. I can't remember the circumstances, but, I find that I always brush hog in low gear, as that range gives me the speed I want for brush hogging/mowing. If I tried to mow in high gear I believe the ride would be extremely uncomfortable, not to mention affecting the cut quality. My property in NV has a slight slope which is no challenge when traveling in any direction. My property in CA has some significant areas of slope whereby I travel up/down and only turn around at the top and bottom. You can do that, but you want to go slow and be careful you don't drop a wheel in a hole. There are many threads here about mowing on slopes-- read them all for some good tips. I don't think mowing in high gear is practical. I find myself using low gear for almost everything, and only use high gear if I want to get from point A to point B-- not use it when doing actual work. Read the threads here also about safety, and going slower is usually the safer route as well.

Yes, I get it about gravitating to the biggest and baddest things. Like a .45acp. Or a .45/70 rifle. Or quad cab diesel truck. Not only are those fun but they also have great utility. I believe if you buy a Massey 1720 you will never regret it. There is just great utility capability. Buy something lesser than a SCUT, and probably keep getting the job done but forever wonder "maybe I should have ...."

 

[Rock Crawler]

@plowhog From what I have read on various forums, the seat on the 1720 is a $1500 item alone, and is a desired upgrade over the base model seat on the 1710. Did you look at both and consider the seats? I am seeing a $1,000 price difference between the 10 and 20, so that is like getting 30 percent off on the better seat, and then getting the bigger fuel pump that gives a little power boost for free! That is why I was thinking of the 1720. I just don't want to save a grand and then always wonder if it would have been better had I got the 25HP version..... Do you ever think that you should have spent that $1,000 more?

I am seeing $17,495 for MMM/Hoe/loader 1710 and the same set up for a 1720 at $18,495. That is over the phone quote, so I assume that there is up to $2,000 worth of money for me to attempt to beat them down from those numbers?

 

[Grandad4]

My biggest fear that I think I have articulated at least 2 times before in this thread is about the life of the hydro systems. The transmission/hydro system will be taking a beating and work hard being that there does not exist a semi level spot of ground within 30 miles of the Pittsburgh Pa area. You going up or your going down... or your floating level in a river. Car tires don't last hear like in most of the country. Fuel economy sucks here compared to most of the country. Lawn and Garden tractor hydro units start to whine loudly and stop working fairly quick here compared to the rest of the country. These are facts of life :-(

One topic that I do not see folks comparing on these sub compacts is the individual hydro unit, axle unit and general drivetrain component list and determine who uses the very best rated parts. When you look at Hydr Gear or Tuff Torq units in Yard or in Garden tractors you start to realize that not all Garden or Yard tractors are created equally. Some are built with the bigger and higher rated parts and others are built around much smaller/weaker/cheaper axles/transmissions. I would assume that between Massey, LS, Kubota, Deere, Mahindra and New Holland Sub Compacts that there has to varying levels of drive train components available to the manufactures?

Another assumption I have is that these will all be sourced with higher end contractor/professional engines rather than retail/consumer grade junk like my Kohler Courage that has an EPA median hours to failure rating of 500 hours? 500 hours of trouble free service does not impress me, I want to hear about 5,000 hours of trouble free service, or even 10,000 hours.

The modern "subcut" type tractor has only been marketed since about 2000, however these units use engines and transmissions derived from slightly larger tractors that have been around for more than 40 years. The small diesels in these tractors are also used in many extreme duty applications (marine, generators, portable lighting, etc.), and are some of the most long-lasting, reliable power sources on the planet. With good maintenance, a little diesel should still be running like new when you are as old as me.

The same can be said of the HST transmissions. It is rare to hear of a tractor HST drive failure, other than due to poor maintenance.

As for high end/low end issues with engines, I don't think any tractor manufacturer is using "consumer grade" diesel engines, if there even is such a thing. Some of the major engine builders are Kubota, Yanmar, Iseki, Daedong, Mitsubishi.

Changing subjects slightly, just a comment about the economics of these things. There is value in investing in higher priced equipment if it does something to improve the safety of your backside while operating it. You would be considerably safer on something with 4WD, robust HST, seatbelts and ROPS, lugged tires, etc., than you are joyriding your Craftsman up and down those slopes. Respectfully suggest that should be a factor in your 1 subcut = x lawnmowers calclulation.

 

[plowhog]

When I was shopping it was a $2,000 difference between a 1710 and 1720. The differences are a slight change in power, a better seat, and brackets around the rear lights to offer some protection should you swipe tree limbs as you go by.

I have not regretted not spending the extra $2k. But if it was only $1k I probably would have opted for the 1720. btw my only complaint about the Massey is the seat, but not about comfort. For me the comfort of the 1710 seat is fine. The Massey has a single seat use in "tractor" and "backhoe" mode. That seat must be flipped up and around to switch between the two modes. I find that process cumbersome. Although dangerous, when trenching with the backhoe I leave the seat in the rear position when moving the tractor forward to work on the next section of trench. Many would cringe at the thought of doing that, but if you are careful you can do it. I just read elsewhere about someone who solved the best of both worlds. When you use the backhoe, just remove the *backrest only* part of the seat, which involved removing 4 bolts, removing the seat back, then replacing the 4 bolts. Then use the flat seat either for backhoe work or moving the tractor forward. I think that is a great idea and I hope to try it soon. Of course, for hours of brush hogging you want the seat back in place, hopefully leaning back on it while letting the cruise control do its thing ....

 

[plowhog]

btw Massey prices you are quoting are less than what I paid, and I shopped around with several dealers and felt I got a pretty good deal ...

 

[cqaigy2]

Pushing at $17,000 for the Massey Ferguson or Mahindra is a click past my wife's limit... Going into specialty equipment that increases in price and takes away my backhoe would be insurmountable .

I'm assuming that machine your referring to is going to be notably more expensive and not have the FEL and more importantly... The backhoe. I would buy a MMM/backhoe combo of it existed for cheaper. The FEL is not that interesting to me as I can't imagine that you can really cut in and dig with it on a 1400 lb machine. I don't have a gravel driveway, so the hoe and then my Rhino can likely do everything I would need. The bucket... Meh.... It comes with it so I'll take it

I don't own one of the big machines, but you can put both a FEL and backhoe on them, among other implements. I have a much smaller 422 that i use on my property, because i don't have much level ground and couldn't find a machine that i tried out, that was as stable.

 

[Rock Crawler]

btw Massey prices you are quoting are less than what I paid, and I shopped around with several dealers and felt I got a pretty good deal ...

I called a place down south of here called Brunos (saw folks on forums talking about them) and learned that I could buy from them for $19,000 shipped to me in the 60" MMM/FEL/BH configured 1720.

What I do not know is if I ordered out of state and shipped in and then needed warranty support.... would Vernon Del be Johnny-on-the-spot to help me out.... or would I get treated like the ******* child that they want nothing to do with?

But paying +$500 but saving 6% state sales taxes has a value.... as in $1,110 worth of taxes kind of value. So by ordering from this fellow down yonder, I save $1110 - $500 overpaid = $610 saved with no negotiating or game playing. Is saving $610 worth it instead of buying local? Hmmmm. I'm having doubts. I suspect that the value of driving to Vernon Del and paying ultimately $600 more will net me better future interactions should a warranty type of issue arise.