Snow Equipment Owning/Operating Snow, driveways & tractors.

MadDog · Dec 11, 2005

I have R4s. Last winter I had no trouble using them in 4WD to move (with FEL) even pretty high hardpacked snow left by the town plow at the end of my cul-de-sac. This year I have put a 3ph snowblower in the rear and put chains on the rear wheels because a number of neighbors are counting on me to clear their driveways. Cleared 9 driveways after Friday's storm without any difficulties. I am not sure that I even need to have the chains on but I figure they'll probably help on hardpacked snow or ice.

I wouldn't hesitate to get R4s. They are pretty serviceable for just about all uses.

trlong · Dec 11, 2005

( I also plan the get front chains to help with steering/braking when we get ice.
) 

Woody,

Is that 3320 4WD? I run chains on the rears with blower in front and RB. Dealer, mechanic, and several others warned against front chains, even just in 2wd. I can definitely understand the problem with chains on the front in 4wd. Not so sure about problems with them in 2wd... just repeating warning's I've been given about use of front chains.

Anyway, I blew snow and bladed off the drive last year with just the rear chains. Driveway is crushed slate so, not an issue with leaving chain marks and they actually help with reducing ice and/or providing some grip for the cars. I like to keep the chains on, once things freeze up, as the driveway slants, curves, and gets pretty icy sometimes. The only time I had any problem was with all 600' of drive a solid sheet of ice under a new snowfall. Steering got a bit tricky but nothing I couldn't deal with by slowing down.

Tom

Slamfire · Dec 11, 2005

I'm on the other side of the hill from jcmseven, and I didn't plow my drive the last couple of years, it only lasted a couple, three days. Other winters though, we've had hard freezes followed by warm spells. My Ags work ok in the mud, but there was way too much slippin' and slidin' on the frozen hard packed snow. I'm using a rear blade and floatin' it an inch or two to keep the gravel in place. I guess I'm gonna have to invest in chains. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif My old crawler worked great on the level but you didn't want too much camber as it would slip sideway pretty easily. Fortunately there is a big runout area where that happens. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Egon · Dec 12, 2005

Slamfire:

Weld some caulks on the grousers. They will dig in on the ice.

Egon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Woody_NH · Dec 12, 2005

Tom,

Yes all of the JD3x20 machines are 4wd. My issue is control of the machine going down the steep section of my driveway when we have ice. This is usually when I have a 1" hard packed snow surface on top of the gravel after plowing previous storms and then we get some rain and a freeze and then a few inches of light snow on top of the ice. I have lost control of my plow truck in the past and now use chains on all 4 wheels of the truck with ice on the driveway under the snow. Of course I don't drive the truck at speed on the road with the chains.

As I said, the R4s work well in snow on moderate grades. I do have loaded tires and either the blade or a ballast box on the 3pt hitch so I am running at about 5,500 lbs which is great in plain old snow. The chains give me control on ice in my special situation.

Woody

jdgreg · Dec 12, 2005

What's the issue of running front chains only on 4WD? I've done that in the past on my old Ford 1700, never had any problems.

djradz · Dec 12, 2005

Bruce, I had R1s on my smaller and lighter Ford 1720 for 12 years and would have to agree, they are far superior to the R4s I now have on my TC 40D for deep snow. The R1s are so much more aggressive and always dug in. The R4s tend to float so much more, I think mostly because of the less aggressive style and less weight per square inch. I, like you, didn't want my yard so torn up, so I didn't get them loaded. That probably would improve their performance, but my concern is they then tend to make more marks on the lawn. Were the R4s you used loaded? I think the only time the R4s would be better may be on ice, when the greater surface area might actually help. To answer your question though, I think the R4s are useable, just not great, nor comparable to the R1s when it comes to much snow.

I think you'll find the front bucket a real pain for most of the plowing. It's great to push back some piles, but for a long drive like you've got, a rear blade would be much, much faster. Just angle the blade to push the snow to one side and then the other, and go.

CTyler · Dec 12, 2005

( I think you'll find the front bucket a real pain for most of the plowing. It's great to push back some piles, but for a long drive like you've got, a rear blade would be much, much faster. Just angle the blade to push the snow to one side and then the other, and go. )

I use both in heavy snow to keep from pushing the back end of the tractor around. Hold the bucket up 5-6" and let the blade do the rest. I'd agree using the FEL alone isn't very efficient if you have much to clear.

jimmysisson · Dec 12, 2005

Probably any 4wd tractor with good R4s will go better than most driveway situations call for. On a road vehicle, the narrower taller tires do seem to get down to traction better than a wider. A tractor is the same, but usually we don't know the difference as we only have one to sample.
On a driveway, plowing or blowing in a forward gear, usually the tires are on squashed down snow or maybe ice depending on conditions. I like being chained up because we get ice and some hardpack I like to know I can stop before I slide out into the road. Never noticed chains ruining a tire either, for some reason.

daTeacha · Dec 12, 2005

Reading all the posts here, it seems R4s work for some, not for others. In looking at a lot of tractors, I've noticed there are different styles of R4 tires. Some have a square shoulder, some are rounded. Some are more open than others. Would it be asking those who have posted about R4s working or not in snow to tell us what size and brand their tires are?

Also, snow conditions can vary tremendously, as you all know. The specific conditions in question on any given day can cause your tires to act differently. Stuff that's nice for snowballs is also pretty good for traction with lugged tires, but fresh powder on top of hardpack is not.

Mahindra3510 · Dec 13, 2005

Quote: I'd like to be able to drive in the yard near the house for landscaping projects, etc, which is why I've figured on R4s.

Not all yards are equal, but if you keep a, shall we say manicured yard, that pretty much rules out the R1s.

MikePA · Dec 13, 2005

shall we say manicured yard 
Soft/wet ground or sharp turns with R1s can cause damage to any lawn. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

trlong · Dec 14, 2005

Woody,

I understand the kind of conditions you face. Not a lot different on this side of the CT River. I probably don't have anywhere near the steep grade you're facing.

I had to do a little (and I mean little) research as to why I've been told NOT to use chains on the front tires. The short answer, from my dealer/mechanic, is that if you're running straight, you don't have a problem. However, as soon as you start to turn the wheel (4WD) if both front wheels dig in, neither can spin, you'll start getting "axle windup" (very technical term /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif) and run the real risk of tearing up the front axle drive gears (clear as mud?).

My dealer said that there are dealers around who will sell, and/or bless, use of chains on the front in 4wd but they will not as they have re-built several front ends damaged by that practice and ended up with very unhappy customers who they could have saved the serious $'s of a rebuild.

I'm sure there are TBN'ers with much more sophisticated descrtiptions of what happens in the front drive if turning in 4wd and the inside wheel is not allowed to slip, to keep up with the revolutions of the outside wheel turning the larger radius turn,....or something like that.

Just my limited mechanical info. I'm looking for more detailed info on the front drive system so I can "see" what the actual mechanism is and how it would be effected.

Tom

trlong · Dec 14, 2005

jdgreg,

See response to Woody, above.

Tom

jdgreg · Dec 14, 2005

Tom, Got it! Makes sense now.

Let us know if you find more info.

Thanks!

scott_vt · Dec 14, 2005

Hi Woody,
I also plan the get front chains to help with steering/braking when we get ice.

I have been using my MF 1040 FWD the last few years to maintain my 800 ft driveway. My drive is also moderate to steep. Was talking to the farmer up the road from me and I mentioned that maybe front chains might make things better /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif He said absolutely not /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif Most tractor manufactures suggest not using front chains. I have not researched his statement, but wouldnt go ahead with that unless I had more favorable info. Just my opinion.

scotty

CTyler · Dec 14, 2005

The wind up is between the front and rear wheels not between the front wheels themselves. This is because the tractor(mine anyway) has an open front diff. Having one front wheel slip releases the wind up between the front and rear.

As far as R4's go they work ok except on ice. I have a 600' drive that has a 5+ deg slope. Plowing up the drive is ok until there is 6+ inches of snow or its icey or glazed over. Then I'll just drive up and plow down the hill. If I had chains on the rear plowing up the drive would probably be cake in heavy snow.

Woody_NH · Dec 14, 2005

Tom (and others), I appreciate your concern for the health of my tractor.

The "axle windup" situation is the same issue that I have with my 4wd truck. The truck has both front and rear differentials but no "center" differential. (Center not meaning physical location but meaning acting as a front to rear differential). If I drive the truck on dry pavement in 2wd and take a turn, the front and rear differentials each compensate for difference in distance traveled between left and right side wheels. There is no connection between front and rear axels and all is fine.

If I shift to 4wd on dry pavement and take a turn, the rear wheels average distance traveled is less that the front wheels average distance traveled. With no center differential, the front drive shaft is locked to the rear drive shaft and something has to give. You can feel the drive line bind and then one wheel will chirp releasing the built up torque ("axle windup"). This is not good for the drive train hence the warning not to use 4wd on dry pavement. (My wife's Subaru AWD has a limited slip front to rear viscous coupling to solve the problem).

My truck as well as my tractor is designed to operate on gravel, for example, in 4wd. The necessary wheel slippage takes place with much less torque build-up. In my situation with hard snow/ice on top of gravel, and operating the tuck in 4wd with chains on all four, the necessary slip take place with about the same ease as with tires on dry gravel. Having lost control of the truck once with chains only on the rear (truck sideways on the steep drive wedged between a tree and a rock), I have used chains on all 4 wheels of the truck for many years in this situation.

I'll have to experiment with the tractor on snow/ice when the front chains arrive. You can pretty easily see if there is some slip. The last snow storm I was going down the steep section on packed show with the tractor in low gear, 2wd (had forgot to engage 4wd), with chains on the rear and let-up on the e-hydro peddle to stop. While the machine did stop, we did skid a few feet.
Woody

daTeacha · Dec 14, 2005

So with no center differential, the tractor has what, 2 driveshafts coming off the same gear and the front can be disengaged? My little Kubota has a lever to engage or disengage 4wd, plus a pedal to lock the differential. My old IH Scout (1st generation, 304 CID, manual box, get out and turn 'em Warn hubs, lift off doors, roof, etc.) had a center diff that could be locked in severe conditions. How many of these tractors don't have center diffs? I think that's something I'd like to have if its available on some brands/models.

bugstruck · Dec 14, 2005

We're suppose to get allot of ice here tomorrow. The Bota with the R4's will be stationary. The little JD 325 2wd with the chains will handle it fine. Less weight actually helps in my situtation. My drive is over 15 degrees of slope at the steepest and never under 10 until the top. The R4's go fine in normal snow on those slopes with a little slippage. In ice it would be an instant accident without chains. I could chain it up, but I'd only seriously consider it with all corners chained. Not worth the hassle when I have a backup ready to go. Chains make an incredible difference in the real slick stuff. The Bota wouldn't even sit still on my drive in real ice.