Snow Equipment Owning/Operating Snow, driveways & tractors.

BruceNorthEast · Dec 15, 2005

Roy, sorry for the delayed response.

You'll have to take my comments with a grain of salt; I'm shopping for my first tractor... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

On that particular day I tried out four machines. Three had loaded industrials (R4s), and one had loaded ags (R1s). All had FELs and nothing on the 3PH, all were roughly in the same weight class and clean (no attached weights).

The dealer allowed me to take the machines out where the snow was still untouched. I was trying to get a feel on how to use the FEL/bucket to clear snow, mostly running in float mode with the buckets cuttin edge just slightly higher than the bottom/backside. Occasionally I'd go into piles of compacted snow that was from the rest of the lot.

The R1s went the furthest/deepest and had the least ammount of steering loss - in my opinion it wasn't even close. But I think I made it sound like the R4s were unusable and I know that isn't the case.

But up here in new england, we get a lot of snow, a lot of which will be much tougher to deal with than what I was playing in, and those conditions were almost ideal - with nothing under the newly fallen snow but gravel. Soon it'll be packed snow and layers of ice...

So I estimated what I'd be facing later this winter, and that's where I came up with the statement that the the R4s I'd previously thought were the only way I wanted to go, now were less attractive.

I think for my situation, I'd be best off with R4s for the warmer seasons, and chains for the not so warm...

Thanks for the insight, you've obviously got a lot of real world experience.

FYI: I have read several posts here on TBN that say "bought chains, been a waste, never needed them" but others say how their tractor did a 180, or neighbors tractor rolled, because of not having chains on when they hit ice. It probably varies significantly by region and for equipment used...

I've still got lots to learn, hopefully there's time to learn it! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Bruce.

BruceNorthEast · Dec 15, 2005

George2615:
 For hard pack snow or ice it doesn't matter running R4's or R1's both will need chains to move.

That's what it'll be like in another few weeks...

And I'll plan on keeping a bucket of sand handy, thanks!
Bruce.

BruceNorthEast · Dec 15, 2005

browns40:

I've seen guys do that to their dirt bikes for ice racing, and they do what would be impossible otherwise...

I wonder if we can get studded R4s? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Bruce.

BruceNorthEast · Dec 15, 2005

Brad,

 If you have the opportunity to try turfs with chains, I think you will be surprised. 
Seems counter-intuitive, but I believe it.

And it would make some of the used machines I've discounted because they had turf tires (and different rims) seem more usable... (couldn't get better for mowin!)
Bruce.

BruceNorthEast · Dec 15, 2005

LarryRB:
 I've been plowing with machines and industrial tires since 1974, and see no reason to have R1s' 

Are you the anommoly or the norm? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously, if I keep hearing reports like that one I might become a convert.

But I do know that my old plow truck coulnd't get out of it's own way without the chains (okay so a mix of snows and radials don't equal R4s! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif )
Bruce.

BruceNorthEast · Dec 15, 2005

MadReferee:
 "I use R4's with chains and the chains are only necessary because the driveway will turn to ice if the sun comes out and it then gets cold" 

My driveway will turn to ice if it gets cold, which this time of year is a forgone conclusion. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 "I handled 14" (measured) the other day with no problems" /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Bruce.

BruceNorthEast · Dec 15, 2005

jcmseven:
 The downside, though, is that R1 tires wear quickly, especially on gravel or pavement, because the tractor weight is distributed on the tops of very narrow tread bars, where the R4's will wear a little better in general. This should mean that the longer you have the machine, the worse the R1's would do, where the R4 tires would be about the same. 

I never even considered the cutting edge wear on the ag tires, good point.

And I agree with your point about the R4s looking better; When I was first looking I saw two machines at different locations, same size machines - just one had R1s while the other R4s. Yet I was certain the one with the R4s was much bigger... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

PS: Your post was one of those I was mentioning to Roy - first responder (neighbors machine rolling becuase of ice...).
Bruce.

BruceNorthEast · Dec 15, 2005

Woody_NH:

I think I'd be seeing what you experienced, though much is flat, part of my drive does slope a bit...

When I was test driving one of those fancy new machines with the R4s, I was coming up a hill next to the dealership offices and hid a patch of packed snow; tires started slipping and machine momentarily lost forward momentum. Instinctively (truck owner) I reached for where I knew the FWD lever was and yanked, much to my surprise all heads turned as I discovered the tires shouldn't be turning when your try to engage it! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

(...Next time I'll use my heel on the differential lock!)
Bruce.

BruceNorthEast · Dec 15, 2005

Kozak:

 Don't worry.....get the R4's if you will be doing work close to the house in the summer. You'll do fine. 

You guys have pretty well convinced my that the R4s will be my best bet, and chains for Christmas?

(maybe next year...) /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Bruce.

BruceNorthEast · Dec 15, 2005

robison:
 "chains on the front" 

It wasn't until I read yours and another guys post that I even knew that was an option...

I've got a long gravel drive, so I don't have to worry about marking, and coupled with my low budget, I won't be going with a 3ph blower anytime soon.

Was encouraged to read how well your machine did in the deep stuff!
Bruce.

BruceNorthEast · Dec 15, 2005

Nice looking machine megotatractor.

Five hours to clear 150' driveway YIKES, /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif maybe my in-laws were right: maybe I do need a plow truck more than a tractor! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

... Naaaa. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Bruce.

beenthere · Dec 15, 2005

On my Deere, engaging the 4wd on the fly is ok, but not ok to do that with the differential lock. Some movement in the wheels is ok when engaging the diff, but not a lot of spinning as the lock ties the right and left wheel together and its good they are not real different in rotational speed when locked.

I'd suspect the 'head turning' might have been just to see what you were going to do about it. I recall the mechanics discussing the ripped up parts in a tranny, and relating stories as to what could have caused it - suspected it was the diff. lock when the wheels were spinning differently.

Just a thought.

jimmysisson · Dec 15, 2005

daTeacha- I'm pretty sure your old Scout had no center diff. It would have had three floor levers: trans, 2wd/4wd, hi-lo range. They were a simple, rugged unit but without a differential. A driveshaft went out to rear and front from a transfer case mounted behind the transmission. The transfer case contained the 2/4 gears and the reduction for hi/lo.
I don't know if any tractors have center diff but I'd doubt it in our size range. Basically you want power to as many wheels as possible, and let tire slippage take care of the "windup".
Those old Scouts had a rugged drive train but here in rust country they used to lose pieces on the road a lot.
Jim

daTeacha · Dec 15, 2005

There was a lever in the glove box to lock the front and rear together -- what did it control?

I'm wondering if I'm wrong in thinking of the transfer case as a center differential? I could shift between 2 high, 4 high, and 4 low with a lever next to the gearshift, and if you got high centered or something equally stupid, it would just sit and spin that one wheel unless you locked it up. Then all four would turn together. -- well, not quite since the front diff was not a posi unit, but if you rode the brake lightly it would turn 'em all. If memory serves, it was a 1970 model. 2 doors, removable hard top, removable doors, hose out the interior with plugs in the floor to drain it, fold down the windshield if you wanted to, etc. Not your modern SUV by any stretch. It didn't even have a radio. It died one day when I popped over a hill one winter day just where the salt truck quit and found a guy sitting crosswise in the road in his Buick. I had to choose between T-boning him and running into the woods. Big trees are tougher than the old Scouts. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

trlong · Dec 15, 2005

Woody,

This, also, from J.D. Support:

 ( I have some additional information for you on tire chains and the reason we do not recommend chains on front tires. Chains on the front-tires would change the overspeed ratio between front and rear tires. This will damage the front axle.
) 

That said, obviously you know about the issue and yes, at least on the tractor you can see (and probably feel) if you're binding up the front wheels or one is slipping to compensate for the radius of a turn. Hope it works for you as I know the feeling of sliding downhill on ice...more than once. Tends to give you a really helpless feeling. Good luck with it. With this storm tonight and tomorrow, you may need some decent traction.

Bruce,...didn't mean to hijack your thread. Just didnt' want folks damage their front axles unnecessarily.

Tom

scott_vt · Dec 16, 2005

Hi Tom,
I think your description about whats happening is about as it gets with non technical terms. I am under the same understanding as you about no slippage when the tractor is in FWD and turning. Maybe if you remember to take it out of FWD when making any serious turns you would be OK, but you would probablly have to have a better memory than mine /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think they call them senior moments /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

scotty

KubotaSteve · Dec 16, 2005

Bruce,

I think you should look at the whole picture as to what you plan on doing with the tractor. In my case I mow my entire yard with mine as well as quite a bit of loader work and snow removal. I also have a lot of those osage orange (hedge apple) and locust trees which have lots of thorns. In the winter I do clear my relatively flat 200 foot drive and parking area. I ruled out R-1's because of mowing and then ruled out the turfs because of the thorns and doing lots of loader work. I went with R-4's and bought chains for the rear. This is my third winter with this machine and I haven't put the chains on yet although with all the ice we got on Thurs. I probably should have.
I would venture to say if you tried out the tractors in the spring when it is quite wet you would be leaning towards turf tires. Just make sure to evaluate all your needs before choosing.
Good luck

jimmysisson · Dec 16, 2005

Now you've got me wondering what I remember. I admit I was thinking about the 4 cylinder Scouts I used to work on. I also owned a 1972 V-8 woods truck but it had the 3 levers on the floor and I think the glove box had fallen out of the old beater! Yours must have been a spiffier model, mine was a ScoutII.
If you were high-centered but in 4wd high or low, only one wheel would spin? That would indicate (assuming it was a rear) you actually weren't in 4wd. I guess I never ran into one with that lever and can't figure out what it was. Maybe someone else whose memory still works knows. I don't think very many vehicles had center diffs in that era as I remember thinking what a good idea it was (though bulky and complicated) when they came out (Audi, maybe, early '80s).
Jim

daTeacha · Dec 19, 2005

Mine was a 1970(gen 1) with the V-8 from AMC. I think it had a rear posi, but I know it didn't have front posi. I was remembering a particular day when I still had yet to learn that 4wd just allowed you to get stuck farther from help. I was driving across an E-W road south of Fremont, Michigan, on my way to Holton to school. There was ice on the road and a strong wind from the north. During one gust, I felt the truck moving sideways, so stopped. As I sat with the wheels stationary, the truck was still blown sideways! When I got to the left shoulder and had 2 wheels off the ice, I could move again. About 1/4 mile later, another white-out of horizontal snow hit. I figured I would be moved left, so steered to the right to correct. Then I quit moving. I found that the drift I had encountered was big and dense enough to lift the entire truck off the ground. The right front would spin while the other wheels remained stationary. I locked the lever, and all four spun. I know because I got out and watched them while it wasn't going anywhere but was in gear and running. I had to shovel snow from under the thing until it got some weight on the rears again, then backed out. By then, school had been closed for the day. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif