Single Tractor vs Skidsteer AND mini EX combo discussion

[CliffordK]

Xfaxman,

I like your tilting flail mower.

I am actually looking for something like an Oliver HG-68 with a front mounted flail mower. Hopefully it will be a project for the future, although I'm worried about the power. Perhaps I would need an auxilliary power system, or a way to get a much beefier engine in a lightweight dozer.

 

[Xfaxman]

Xfaxman,

I like your tilting flail mower.

I am actually looking for something like an Oliver HG-68 with a front mounted flail mower. Hopefully it will be a project for the future, although I'm worried about the power. Perhaps I would need an auxilliary power system, or a way to get a much beefier engine in a lightweight dozer.

Not a flail mower, it is a 6' box blade that was pictured in post #18 of this thread, Piston was asking how the Versahandler would do for grading trails into a hillside, so I showed the Tilt-Tach tilted.
Here it is not tilted:

And on the V417:

I had an Oliver HG-68 with a front loader on it, neat little crawler, but not geared low enough for dirt work. It is possible to add a Ford Model A 3 speed transmission ahead of the transaxle, put both in reverse and you have a crawler gear for the crawler!

 

[MBTRAC]

MBTRAC,
I remember seeing an amazingly impressive list of all your equipment in one of these threads........
Whilst we have a bit of gear, if it's not earning $'s contracting/farming it's generally older & purchased s/h at bargain $'s so we can justify the ownership (e.g for the price of a new skid steer we'd still have enough change after buying the FEL+BH+2x8wd Tippers pictured for a s/h mini excavator),

According to your recommendations (which I absolutely respect!) I already have a pretty good setup.
:thumbsup:Right on, for most general smaller tasks

I do have the JD410 but like I mentioned, would have to transport.........
Transporting anything is a hassle & costly, so plan the tasks to minimise (but underutilising machines is worse).

.....I do feel like my tractor is not going to make a huge dent in the forest without taking quite a bit of time.
Apart from time, it's going to be a lot of hard yards clearing anything major.....
As for the excavator and how slow it moves, that is certainly an issue. Would you change your recommendations though if I said that I won't be moving it around from place to place, but rather bringing it to my land and leaving it there, to clear the trees/forest for a small building lot? (about 5 acres or so, plus a couple small fields throughout the property)
Excavator "travel time" is slow & costly (on the undercarriage) if you're moving it constantly from a worksite back to say your shed, as with any tracked machine the less unproductive time the tracks are turning the less cost you're incurring.

I've never heard of, or seen, a "tipper" like you posted..........
In some areas they're fairly common & with a low centre of gravity/high traction great on farms - just avoid the tracked versions (high cost to maintain) - try searching http://www.machinerytrader.com/list...&mdlx=Contains&CTRY=usa&SO=2&btnSearch=Search & irrespective of price listed they're only worth what someone will offer....

Have any of you ever used a tree shear on a skidsteer? My neighbor has a 14" tree shear and Fecon mulching head for his RC100.
I've only used shears on excavators, we also run mulchers on Skiddies & Takeuchi TL150 CTL's

Would I be better off just paying him to do the work?
Depends on how much/heavy your work is....an RC100 is fine for scrub/smaller stuff but your not going to be clearing hardwood stumps or 10acres economically with it.

...........it's a Hitachi 230 LC5 which I guess is around 50k lbs............I can't help but think I could buy this machine, clear the land, then sell it and replace it with a small mini ex, or just sell it altogether and use the money towards my next tractor.
Hitachi's are sound machines & a c.20T will clear & dig ponds/dams fine - grapples or thumbs make stacking pile burns & rock landscaping easy - if you're heading down this path invest in machine oil sample analysis (engine/hyd/drive motors )/undercarriage inspection prior to parting with any $'s - Yep if I had 5acres+ of heavy land clearing & some pond work this what I'd be doing - With patience I'd expect you should get something sound for under c.$20K (avoid an "ex" that's had a hammer fitted or been used in demolition)..the resell for close to what you paid

So many choices..... :laughing:

Spend your hard earned $'s wisely

 

[Rustyiron]

Piston, you'll love the ex. Is that the one your looking at in your photos? You might want to consider that your needs will change from your clearing & construction stage (excavator & SS wins big) to later on during your living there "landowner" stage. Where I'd say that your tractor will suit you better than a SS. I have all 3 and up until lately only had my SS & ex. here, finally after 3 yrs. (another story) I have my tractor here as well. The excavator is really a fantastic tool that I doubt you'd ever want to get rid of. I use mine for so many things that you just can't do with either a trac. or SS, all the way to the wood pile, (an ex. with a thumb makes the best "sawbuck" for bucking up firewood, ever). As for clearing your prop., forget the tree shear & take the tree with the stump with the ex. I have the biggest SS made, @ 5 ton and 115hp with OTT's (over the tire tracks) it is just about unstopable, that is until you meet a stump or rock (poor ground clearance) but it'll run circles around a tractor doing dirtwork & other loader chores, and really compliments an excavator's ability. With the 2 you could dig your own foundation, septic, well & utility lines, driveway & clearing. Lot's of choices & decisions not to mention budget considerations. Now that I have my tractor here (my bldgs are built and now am more in the "landowner" phase) I had forgotten how sweet a tractor is to hop on and off and it's MUCH inproved mobility in the snowy woods, but still for loader work, the unbeatable visibility of a SS, and it's boom & bucket that was designed for abuse vs. a tractor loader & bucket, that (IMHO) is designed for chores & loading loose materials only. Now the telehandler aproach is a good idea, but again similar to a tractor when it comes to manuvering although better with the different steering modes.

 

[Piston]

Transporting anything is a hassle & costly, so plan the tasks to minimise (but underutilising machines is worse).

I'm definitely guilty of under utilizing the backhoe. For instance, I bring my tractor up to the land fairly often because it is easy to transport, and the backhoe sits probably 300 days a year. Although it's my father's backhoe, I could pay to haul it up to my land in the spring, and leave it until fall, and use that. There is nothing on his land (he only has a few acres of non-lawn) that he couldn't accomplish with my tractor, so I could leave him my tractor (which is where I keep it anyways) and take his backhoe for the spring/summer/fall, then go up there and use the backhoe which would be more productive than my tractor anyways.

.....I do feel like my tractor is not going to make a huge dent in the forest without taking quite a bit of time.
Apart from time, it's going to be a lot of hard yards clearing anything major.....

I can take down a tree, chip the brush, grind the stump, and level the area in a small amount of time. However, multiply that by hundreds, if not thousands, and it seems almost impossible without tearing up my tractor and taking 10 yrs to do.

if you're moving it constantly from a worksite back to say your shed, as with any tracked machine the less unproductive time the tracks are turning the less cost you're incurring.

IF I decided to go the excavator route, I would be hauling it up there and leaving it right where I'm working. At the end of the work day, I'd shut it down and walk back to my grandfather's house that I stay in. I wouldn't be driving it back and forth to the barn or equipment shed, so at least that would minimize any unnecessary movement.

Most of what I'm clearing is small pine's up to 20" dbh (and there aren't many of those) as well as small hardwoods, mostly less than 10" dbh and anything over that I won't be taking down anyways. I don't want to "clearcut" the land and I'm going to save any nice trees. A LOT of the land is somewhere between 2" to 8" saplings. Not small enough for my heavy duty brush cutter but not big enough to be worth anything. (I will keep the smaller hardwoods for firewood)

Thanks for the advice on the excavator oil and undercarriage inspections.

 

[IndyIan]

So what's the goal with the land? Making several acres into a park like setting? Leaving lone trees out a dense stand may have them blow down anyways depending on the exposure and especially if their roots have been damaged. I'm still loosing the odd softwood tree from when the previous owner had a selective cut done in my woods 10 years ago.
You may be further ahead to have a pro land clearing crew do their thing and plant some saplings where you want them?

 

[Piston]

Piston, you'll love the ex. Is that the one your looking at in your photos? ....

Yes that is the one I'm thinking of buying. My father's lifetime friend is in the excavating business, has been since his father started the company when my dad was a kid. The good part about this is that I trust the guy selling it, he's been using it for jobs for a while now, and I know I wouldn't be getting screwed on the price for it.
I don't know the year yet, but I found out that they started building them in '97, so it's somewhere between then and now :laughing: I also don't know the hours, or undercarriage condition, or really anything about it. I won't be home for a couple weeks but I'm going to look at it when I get home and ask him questions and try it out.

It's a Hitachi 230 LC5 and from what I found online is a 50k lb machine. It seems like a decent mid sized excavator. My father told me that the owner has been using it for a while and it is currently on a job doing a septic system or something like that, only a couple miles from my house. The guy is getting closer to retiring and is starting to sell his equipment and downsize. He isn't advertising it and he's not in a hurry to sell. When the guy asked my dad how I was doing (I used to go on fishing trips with them as a little boy) he told the guy about my plans for building on my NH land. That's when the guy mentioned that he had this excavator that I could buy, clear my land with and dig a foundation/driveway, and probably sell it for what I buy it for. And that is where this crazy idea started

It does not have a thumb, but you can see it has mounting for a mechanical thumb. I recently built a thumb for my 410 backhoe and I overbuilt the heck out of it, so I think it's actually a bit too big for the backhoe, but maybe slightly too small for the ex. I could probably mount it and just "go easy" on it and it should be fine. I'd also look into adding the hydraulics to make it a hyd thumb, but I have a feeling this could get expensive. I'd be okay with mechanical I suppose.

.. The excavator is really a fantastic tool that I doubt you'd ever want to get rid of.

That's what I'd be afraid of, I wouldn't want to sell it! However, I could see myself selling it and buying a mini ex just to have around, but as mentioned, they seem to be some pretty expensive pieces of equipment "just to have around"

With the 2 you could dig your own foundation, septic, well & utility lines, driveway & clearing.

I wish I had a rough idea of what it would cost me to hire it out, vs. buy the excavator and do it myself. I may try and get an estimate from someone to get a rough idea. However the problem is, I'm not 100% sure exactly where I want to clear and what. I figured if I do it myself, I can slowly clear a section, then take a step back and look over, and decide where to clear next. I'm a little afraid of clearing too much at once, and then wishing I didn't knock all my trees down, which I feel would happen if I hire it out.

Now the telehandler aproach is a good idea, but again similar to a tractor when it comes to manuvering although better with the different steering modes.

I looked up the prices on used Versahandlers. It looks like those are around $70k even for a used one

 

[Piston]

So what's the goal with the land? Making several acres into a park like setting?

Not park like, but ultimately I want a nice 1 acre or so area of lawn, then a couple acres around that of a "transition" zone where it starts with a few smaller trees, then gets slowly thicker into larger trees, and eventually giving way to the forest. I'd also like a couple small 1 acre fields for wildlife, things like birds and deer.

The only worry I have about knocking the trees down with stumps and all (which is probably how I would end up doing it) is erosion. I do like the idea of leaving the stumps with roots to hold the soil together while grass/brush starts to grow their roots to help hold the soil together.

This is eventually going to be a small vacation home for my family.

 

[catdozer]

I have all all three and what it sounds like you just need a bigger tractor. Ive got bobcat CT235, T190, and 331 excavator. Also got larger excavators Cat 336, 320 etc. One thing about big machines are big maintenance. Say you have to do undercarriage + $15,000. Sounds like you just need a bigger tractor and have them come in and clear the ground.

 

[Xfaxman]

I looked up the prices on used Versahandlers. It looks like those are around $70k even for a used one

Must be for the full size series, not a compact V518 or V417.

Here is a copy of the quote from my dealer on a new V417 in 2010:



Product Quotation
Quotation Number: 4486E05124v1

Date: 2010-07-01 11:22:15

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Description Part No Qty Price Ea. Total

V417-Cab Versa-Handler 7138801 1 $63,139.00 $63,139.00

Warranty: 12 Months, Unlimited Hours

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I bought a 2009 demo with 44 hours for $52K, and it does everything that I need.

Keep in mind as you are trying to decide a decision, there are backhoe attachments that will work on the Versahandler, and can be removed in less than a minute. Turn the pressure release lever, pull up two levers, disconnect the hoses, drive away.

 

[Piston]

XFaxman,
Your right I must have been looking at larger machines.

I think you said you've had tractors before too. How does your machine (which model is yours?) compare to the tractors you've had?

Can you think of anything that your tractors did better? That's definitely an interesting machine for sure, I've never seen one before.

How is the ground clearance? What about visibility when backing up? For instance when your using the box blade it looks like you wouldn't be able to see where your going very easily? Feel free to post more pics of that thing!

 

[Piston]

I have all all three and what it sounds like you just need a bigger tractor. Ive got bobcat CT235, T190, and 331 excavator. Also got larger excavators Cat 336, 320 etc. One thing about big machines are big maintenance. Say you have to do undercarriage + $15,000. Sounds like you just need a bigger tractor and have them come in and clear the ground.

Catdozer,
So your saying you think it would be best to rent out the heavy work, and then just clean it up with a (bigger) tractor?

I hear ya on the maintenance. I know it would be a risk to buy any type of heavy machinery with the intention of selling it for what I bought it for at the end. I have no idea yet how the undercarriage is, I don't even know what to look for, so I would definitely need someone experienced to help me check it out. Although I do have to say that I wouldn't have any reservations from buying it from the seller since it's a family friend.

As many of you are aware, I've also thought very often of selling my tractor and replacing it with a larger, more expensive one. However, I think that my tractor and another piece of equipment may be more useful than one single larger tractor.

 

[Piston]

Duplicate post.


Off topic, but have you guys noticed a ridiculous amount of duplicate posts in the last 2 months? It seems like there must be something wrong with the forum because I've never seen so many duplicates. :thumbdown:

Okay, back to the subject...

 

[Piston]

xfaxman,
Does your versahandler have the ability to change out implements without getting out of the seat? I've heard (and don't even know if this is true) that some skid steers have some sort of automatic lock and unlock for the quick attach setup, where you dont' need to dismount the machine to change out implements (assuming there are no hyd hoses)

 

[Xfaxman]

XFaxman,
Your right I must have been looking at larger machines.

I think you said you've had tractors before too. How does your machine (which model is yours?) compare to the tractors you've had?

Can you think of anything that your tractors did better? That's definitely an interesting machine for sure, I've never seen one before.

How is the ground clearance? What about visibility when backing up? For instance when your using the box blade it looks like you wouldn't be able to see where your going very easily? Feel free to post more pics of that thing!

I have had several tractors over the last 30 years. This is the one I sold soon after I bought the V518 in September 2009.



Here you can see the size of each.



When it got stuck, I had to pull it out with the 1 ton 4X4, or the winch on the front. The Versahandlers have been stuck many places that a that a tractor would have had to be towed from, but they always got out, using the boom. I did have to use a truck one time, but only as an anchor.

I sold the MF240D because the V518 did everything the tractor did and much more. It was so nice to have the tree cutter and brush hog out front.

Ground clearance isn't a factor, if you get high centered, extend the boom, until the back end comes off the ground, and drive forward as you retract the boom.

Visibility was solved with this:



To the rear:

Crossed the cattle guard.


Backed up to it.


Pulled forward until I could see the closest pipe.

 

[Xfaxman]

xfaxman,
Does your versahandler have the ability to change out implements without getting out of the seat? I've heard (and don't even know if this is true) that some skid steers have some sort of automatic lock and unlock for the quick attach setup, where you dont' need to dismount the machine to change out implements (assuming there are no hyd hoses)

The V518 did, The V417 doesn't.

The Toolcat has it, you can see the hydraulic cylinders that move the levers in this picture.

 

[Xfaxman]

XFaxman,
Feel free to post more pics of that thing!

Ask and ye shall receive!

Getting chunks of concrete out of the spillway with the Gorilla Grapple:


One of the most used attachments, The nearly 5' long stump bucket. I wish I'd taken pictures of the big oak trees removed with it.



Adding clay to the silt pile started by the V518.



One month later, it is a little higher.



Moved a brush pile down the hill to be burned.



Moved the pin hitch up, added the receiver hitch that I cut down and used on the V518



Moving the travel trailer.



Ran over the wife!:shocked: (picture was her idea)

 

[catdozer]

Catdozer,
So your saying you think it would be best to rent out the heavy work, and then just clean it up with a (bigger) tractor?

I hear ya on the maintenance. I know it would be a risk to buy any type of heavy machinery with the intention of selling it for what I bought it for at the end. I have no idea yet how the undercarriage is, I don't even know what to look for, so I would definitely need someone experienced to help me check it out. Although I do have to say that I wouldn't have any reservations from buying it from the seller since it's a family friend.

As many of you are aware, I've also thought very often of selling my tractor and replacing it with a larger, more expensive one. However, I think that my tractor and another piece of equipment may be more useful than one single larger tractor.

That or keep your tractor now and maybe buy a bigger skidloader.
Never hurts to look at other alternatives but sometimes buying a machine that big, turning around to sell it becomes the problem cause a 50k excavator does not sell often to a regular person. And for the driveway and foundation you can always do that with your backhoe.

 

[Xfaxman]

That or keep your tractor now and maybe buy a bigger skidloader.
Never hurts to look at other alternatives but sometimes buying a machine that big, turning around to sell it becomes the problem cause a 50k excavator does not sell often to a regular person. And for the driveway and foundation you can always do that with your backhoe.

What is your opinion, performance wise of the Bobcat T300 tracked skidsteer?

 

[catdozer]

What is your opinion, performance wise of the Bobcat T300 tracked skidsteer?

i dont have one but my dad used to have a T320, he actually went to buy a T300 but he was told to wait for for the new T320, so he bought that in 2007 with a forestry head. he traded it a little over a year ago with close to 5000 hrs. the machine did work! never had a lack of power. we did have a few problems but those were track drive motors and a head gasket. you can put any attachment and just go. they were on the slow side as they didnt have 2 speed but i call it the rubber track bulldozer. and with any tracked skidsteers they are best paired with a 4in1 bucket. he really didnt want to get rid of it since it was such a good machine but it was time, ended up getting a T870 which is another monster

btw very nice V417