selector valve problem

[jurden]

This is my first post on this site. I have been a member for several months and learned MUCH. What i know about hydraulics I've learned here. But, I知 stumped by a hydraulic problem.
I have tried to add another function to the curl circuit on my FEL for a grapple using an electric selector valve. The valve is from Surplus Center and is the valve used in many posts for this purpose. I have it plumbed so that the N.O. circuit operates the curl and closing a momentary S.P. switch operates the valve to switch to the grapple. Problem is: when I curl the bucket or extend the bucket the bucket operates as it should but causes the relief valve to open and the tractor engine to load hard. The bucket rolls forward and back but fluid is also going by the relief valve. The selector valve is rated for 15 GPM. My tractor is 90HP and the hydraulic pump makes 17 GPM per the ownerç—´ manual. So, what do you think? Valve to small for my application? Valve defective?

Let me add that Surplus Center has been VERY cooperative and willing to work with me on this. The tech guy on the phone had me remove the valve, take it apart, and look for a problem. Nothing was found (trash, dirt, casting flash, ect.). When I had the valve apart I did see that the passages were only about 3/16 in diameter. Me? I think the valve is just too small and won稚 handle the volume......al
Link to selector valve:
Burden Sales Surplus Center Item Detail

 

[kennyd]

Welcome to TBN

Does it work OK if you just move the joystick a little bit?
Are you sure both coils have power?
Does the Grapple work OK?

 

[jurden]

"Does it work OK if you just move the joystick a little bit?
Are you sure both coils have power?
Does the Grapple work OK?"

yes the bucket works, but slowly. After 1 or 2 seconds the relief valve "clunks" and the engine is loaded.

both coils work, both plungers in the selector valve will move freely.

grapple has not arrived and and electric selector valve is not powered up.
as i understand it (?), the curl/extend of the bucket should opperate like before i added the selector valve.....thanks, al

 

[mgamber]

I bet we have the same valve. Somewhere there is a thread on here where a user took it apart and found that it is defective (may be why surplus center is selling them). Seems that some of the port holes do not line up correctly and is causing quite a restriction.

 

[tommu56]

jurden
What are the letters on the ports like?

Draw a sketch or take a picture and post it

Is there an mfg # on valve?

It looks like there should be 3 ports on each valve on one side there should be out from system to one port on the other side to cylinder then back to the 2nd valve same position in from cylinder out the other side to tractor return.
unenergized should let one set of ports on each valve function from their respective common ports.

Loop the now unused ports and see what happens.
My bet is you have the lines crossed.

tom

 

[J_J]

jurden ,

Are you applying 12 v to both solenoids at the same time. With no voltage applied, the curl on the bucket is supposed to work as normal. When you apply 12 v to both valves, the circuit switches fluid to the other cylinder, which would be the grapple. .

 

[kennyd]

I bet we have the same valve. Somewhere there is a thread on here where a user took it apart and found that it is defective (may be why surplus center is selling them). Seems that some of the port holes do not line up correctly and is causing quite a restriction.

That was a valve made for Caterpillar, not the one in question here.

 

[kennyd]

jurden
What are the letters on the ports like?

Draw a sketch or take a picture and post it

Is there an mfg # on valve?

It looks like there should be 3 ports on each valve on one side there should be out from system to one port on the other side to cylinder then back to the 2nd valve same position in from cylinder out the other side to tractor return.
unenergized should let one set of ports on each valve function from their respective common ports.

Loop the now unused ports and see what happens.
My bet is you have the lines crossed.

tom

The drawing can be viewed HERE, And the instructions HERE. Hopefully you are correct and it is that simple!

I do not believe the valve's rating of 15GPM vs. the tractor's 17GPM is the issue here. I doubt you have the full17GPM flowing to the work ports of your loader valve. I suspect something very simple...

 

[jurden]

JJ...there is no electrical power to the valve. i had the local hydraulic shop cut the two hose and put new jic 8 ends on the hose. i added the electric selector valve there. so, all hose is the same. the dump/curl input hose are on one side and the 4 outputs are on the other. two original hose (shortened) from selector valve to the cyl. there are no hose on what will be the grapple circuit. the restriction is the selector valve. i checked the hose and cant see any problem with them. i thought the hydraulic shop may have skived some of the hose liner.....al

 

[tommu56]

jurden look at the drrawing at the bottom of the page hydraulic schematic

notice the "T" in the square by the VE, VR ports that means the port is closed in the non powered state. to let fluid flow you need to shift valve (apply 12v power) to get to shift and flow will follow the diagram on the right side of the rectangle.


These are 2 normally closed valves as oppose to a divertor valve you will have to power one or the other to shift functions.

One must be powered at all the time to get that one function to work so you will need a single pole double throw switch to switch functions not just regular push button

This valve is not the normal one normally open circuit and one closed circuit that you would energize the coil to switch function

Ill look for the schametic for a diver tor valve to confuse you more I gotta go to work now

tom

 

[J_J]

JJ...there is no electrical power to the valve. i had the local hydraulic shop cut the two hose and put new jic 8 ends on the hose. i added the electric selector valve there. so, all hose is the same. the dump/curl input hose are on one side and the 4 outputs are on the other. two original hose (shortened) from selector valve to the cyl. there are no hose on what will be the grapple circuit. the restriction is the selector valve. i checked the hose and cant see any problem with them. i thought the hydraulic shop may have skived some of the hose liner.....al

My take on that valve is this.

The description of the valve states that one of the valves is normally open, and the other is normally closed, That tells me that if the hoses are hooked up correctly, the curl will function as normal, and the grapple is blocked off in the no voltage state. Now when you take a SPST switch and apply 12v, to both valves, both solenoids will switch to the opposite state. Thats why a SPST switch is used for both valves.

 

[tommu56]

JJ
The schematic clearly shows 2 normally closed valves, no flow unless a coil is energized.
So nothing will happen when the lever is moved with out energizing the coil.


jurden
Try temporarily powering the valve you have connected to the curl cylinder, and move lever that function will work correctly.

tom

 

[J_J]

There are several ways to hook up this valve. Now if the statement is true about one valve is normally open, and the other is normally closed, Then an SPST switch will cause the valve to divert the fluid to the other cylinder, by causing the solenoids to activate and switch to the opposite mode.

The normally open solenoid is in the circuit going to the curl cylinder, and the normally closed circuit is going to the grapple. So when voltage is applied to both valves, the circuit fluid is switched to the other cylinder.

 

[J_J]

A simple test would be to apply air to the input, and see which cylinder ports have air, and then apply 12 v and see if the air flow is switched.



9-5117, and 9-5117A are two different valves.

The schematic for the 9-5117 valve is for two normally closed valves. The 9-5117A one circuit is open, and the other is closed. So the circuit will flip flop every time you apply power to the solenoid.

A single momentary push button will power this valve 9-5117A and switch circuits on command.

 

[tommu56]

A simple test would be to apply air to the input, and see which cylinder ports have air, and then apply 12 v and see if the air flow is switched.



9-5117, and 9-5117A are two different valves.

The schematic for the 9117 valve is for two normally closed valves. The 9-5117A one circuit is open, and the other is closed. So the circuit will flip flop every time you apply power to the solenoid.

A single momentary push button will power this valve 9-5117A and switch circuits on command.

jurden Which one do you have?

I cant find the schematic for the "9-5117a"
The the link kennyd provided to "9-5117" shows NC valves.


tom

 

[tommu56]

I found the "A" valve schematics it is a normally open valve

we just need to know which one jurden has.

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Drawing/DR9-5117-a.pdf

tom

 

[jurden]

I have the A valve. one NO and one NC. When power is applied to both solenoids the valve is supposed to open the other side and close the normally open side. i used air to test the opperation of the valve before i installed it. I wasnt sure so i used air and powered up the valve. with air it worked like the directions supplied. just not enough oil passes and caused the relief valve to open and the engine to load up. dump/curl work, just much slower than before i added the valve.....al
thanks for all the input guys

 

[kennyd]

jurden Which one do you have?

I cant find the schematic for the "9-5117a"
The the link kennyd provided to "9-5117" shows NC valves.


tom

I confused things by posting that...I am sorry. He has the "A" valve as he stated...I posted the link for the port identification and I should have clarified that when the did it...My bad.

 

[J_J]

I think I would make sure that the solenoids are grounded good, ;and that you have 12 v going to the solenoid when you press the switch. Low voltage caused by a bad ground will not allow the full 12 v to flow, and the solenoid may not pull or push all the way. However the open circuit should have full curl on the bucket, because the valve is open with no voltage. To test that one circuit, use a hose off the push line from the cylinder, and put in a bucket and notice flow, when you push the FEL lever to curl. Even though the valve does say 15 GPM, that should be more than enough to operate that cylinder rather fast.

 

[jurden]

i have the selector valve off the tractor. im going to put the hose back together where i had the valve with two jic/jic male adapters and see if it works normal. JJ---i dont think i could tell how many gph i would be getting past the valve. i dont know what 5 or 10 gph would look like. at least this way it takes the valve out of the picture. i will advise and thanks for all the input guys...really!.....al