Right to Privacy

[2manyrocks]

Is that the one that stars "ARNOLD" in the lead role as mild manner farmer by day, but at night he transforms into
SUPERKUBOTAMAN!!!!

Well, actually, the Black Tractors/alien transformers had been monitoring human activity to determine if humanity is worth saving. There's a flashback in the movie when the audience discovers that they had posed as moderators on the forums to pose difficult questions and observe the human responses to their questions.

One of the principle reasons the critics dogged the movie is that they were never satisfied with the actor chosen to protray the lead character. The producters originally cast Val Kilmer, but he had to drop out. Then they cast Harrisoin Ford, but Spielberg got him for another Star Wars project. I forget all of the actors they went thorugh. Anyway, it went on like this for a while, but they never quite found anyone that the critics felt was quite up to the Bird character.

But to answer your question, the aliens used Kubotaman as someone to draw media attention to and away from themrselves while they maintained their secret identities.

 

[gerard]

I'm not saying ANY solution is better than no solution. I am saying there are a bunch of people in this thread whining about the current situation but offering NO solution.

The fact is there are millions of have-nots in this country that are not going away. Now what are we going to do with them and who is going to pay for those solutions? That's why I support a flat tax across the board with no minimum or maximum income limits. Everyone pays an equal percent. I also support a list of social programs. Work for welfare and mandatory drug testing for welfare. I support lower prison terms for minor non-violent drug users. I support community service for repentance: work release. I support free drug rehab for two time losers. I support three strikes you're out to some extent. I support public education. Hey, public education is about as socialist as you can get. Take my money to teach someone else's child. What if I don't have kids? Why should my tax dollars pay for public school? Because if we don't educate our neighbor he will be some drooling fool stealing to survive.

Amazingly mossroad I agree with just about all your idea's so I guess we have more in common than not. I agree we can't let people starve but neither should we make welfare too easy. Welfare used to have a stigma. No more. Now it's a way of life for some people and that is not acceptable to me. I've been in welfare recipient houses and they ALL have large screen TV's, cable tv, and cell phones. Food stamps used to get sold to the bodega's for $.50 on the dollar so beer and cigarettes can get bought. Why are people on welfare even SHOPPING at convenience stores for their major shopping and paying a premium?

I'd rather see soup kitchens and orphanages. (Do you recall the scene when Michelle Obama was volunteering in the soup kitchen and someone in line getting free food was taking a picture of her on their cell phone? They have a $40 a month cell phone why????)

I guess I just reject the notion that there are that many TRULY needy people out there. Cut out the sponges and I'm more inclined to take care of the rest. Just remember, a wiser man than me said, "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a lieftime" I think we should stop giving away fish and make people fish.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

Amazingly mossroad I agree with just about all your idea's so I guess we have more in common than not. I agree we can't let people starve but neither should we make welfare too easy. Welfare used to have a stigma. No more. Now it's a way of life for some people and that is not acceptable to me. I've been in welfare recipient houses and they ALL have large screen TV's, cable tv, and cell phones. Food stamps used to get sold to the bodega's for $.50 on the dollar so beer and cigarettes can get bought. Why are people on welfare even SHOPPING at convenience stores for their major shopping and paying a premium?

I'd rather see soup kitchens and orphanages. (Do you recall the scene when Michelle Obama was volunteering in the soup kitchen and someone in line getting free food was taking a picture of her on their cell phone? They have a $40 a month cell phone why????)

I guess I just reject the notion that there are that many TRULY needy people out there. Cut out the sponges and I'm more inclined to take care of the rest. Just remember, a wiser man than me said, "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a lieftime" I think we should stop giving away fish and make people fish.

No, I think we SHOULD give away sardines

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

Well, actually, the Black Tractors/alien transformers had been monitoring human activity to determine if humanity is worth saving. There's a flashback in the movie when the audience discovers that they had posed as moderators on the forums to pose difficult questions and observe the human responses to their questions.

One of the principle reasons the critics dogged the movie is that they were never satisfied with the actor chosen to protray the lead character. The producters originally cast Val Kilmer, but he had to drop out. Then they cast Harrisoin Ford, but Spielberg got him for another Star Wars project. I forget all of the actors they went thorugh. Anyway, it went on like this for a while, but they never quite found anyone that the critics felt was quite up to the Bird character.

But to answer your question, the aliens used Kubotaman as someone to draw media attention to and away from themrselves while they maintained their secret identities.

You are a Naughty boy,AND skating on thin ice
See I was talking about the Directors Cut where

 

[2manyrocks]

After being discovered, then the Great Server crash occurred. It's rumored there was considerable debate among the aliens whether the humans were worth saving, but since all records were lost in the server crash, no one is sure.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

After being discovered, then the Great Server crash occurred. It's rumored there was considerable debate among the aliens whether the humans were worth saving, but since all records were lost in the server crash, no one is sure.

Actually, some had a substance called "paper'
and it was used in some primitive societies that were not at all advanced. Its seems that someone "wrote" something about the "great server crash" and it was saved for posterity.
Well it seems that after all the humans were gone ,a lower form of life emerged, they were called Oliticians and they were a very destructive race, but they reproduced at an astonishing rate, and the rest of the planet then went into a death spiral, as you know, and perhaps explains why we are now living on the planet Eaganwasright.
A little bedtime story. Nighty Night

 

[MossRoad]

Amazingly mossroad I agree with just about all your idea's so I guess we have more in common than not. I agree we can't let people starve but neither should we make welfare too easy. Welfare used to have a stigma. No more. Now it's a way of life for some people and that is not acceptable to me. I've been in welfare recipient houses and they ALL have large screen TV's, cable tv, and cell phones. Food stamps used to get sold to the bodega's for $.50 on the dollar so beer and cigarettes can get bought. Why are people on welfare even SHOPPING at convenience stores for their major shopping and paying a premium?

I'd rather see soup kitchens and orphanages. (Do you recall the scene when Michelle Obama was volunteering in the soup kitchen and someone in line getting free food was taking a picture of her on their cell phone? They have a $40 a month cell phone why????)

I guess I just reject the notion that there are that many TRULY needy people out there. Cut out the sponges and I'm more inclined to take care of the rest. Just remember, a wiser man than me said, "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a lieftime" I think we should stop giving away fish and make people fish.

Well, see, there we go... common ground! :laughing:

Any time the local news is interviewing someone on T.V. that is receiving aid, be it government, private, etc... my wife and I look in the background for the big screen or X box. I'm pretty sure more than half the time those luxury items are there, so you are not alone in noticing those things.

Many of us need to talk face-to-face to see the facial expressions and body language each of us are using. I'm sure I come across as argumentative when I do not mean to be. :thumbsup:

 

[brin]

So what do we do with them? Leave 'em lay in the gutter? Perhaps sterilize them and let them roam the streets? Easy for you to say too bad. Hard for you to offer a solution, though, isn't it?

No it is not hard for me to offer a solution....back when I was growing up before government interference private charities and individuals as well as churches provided and hand up to folks ...not a hand out...There is your solution..Teach a man how to fish instead of giving him fish...Do you disagree Moss ?

 

[MossRoad]

I guess I just reject the notion that there are that many TRULY needy people out there. Cut out the sponges and I'm more inclined to take care of the rest. Just remember, a wiser man than me said, "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a lieftime" I think we should stop giving away fish and make people fish.

On this particular item, I think you need to get out there (with some backup) and go through some of the areas like the south side of Chicago, East St. Louis, Detroit, heck, here in South Bend, IN even where there is a 40% vacant housing rate. Yes. 40% non-occupied houses. There are no jobs to be had. Even if some young inner city kid was blessed with parents that cared and provided for him, there is no place for him to make a living. And if you have no money, you can't even afford to move to a place where there IS employment. It is bad.

 

[brin]

Ever seen the movie Soilent Green?

Yes Mossroad I have seen the movie " Soilent Green and found it disgusting , however , now it seems it may have been prophetic...Is that what you believe in ? Exterminating older folks who have paid into a system which promised them Social Security and Then Medicare and now wants to breach the contract because they have raided the trust fund and allowed previously unqualified folks to join social security and medicare and along with government theft, bankrupt it ...Are you for that ? If you are not old now and you are lucky enough one day you will be so be careful what you wish for....it may just end up applying to you.

 

[Chuck52]

Moss,

I guess your point is that most of us really wouldn't like to live in a country where the poor were just left to starve. I know I wouldn't, and I don't. We all benefit from government programs that help the less fortunate, if only in having fewer bodies to step over on our way to the restaurant.

Chuck

 

[brin]

Moss,

I guess your point is that most of us really wouldn't like to live in a country where the poor were just left to starve. I know I wouldn't, and I don't. We all benefit from government programs that help the less fortunate, if only in having fewer bodies to step over on our way to the restaurant.

Chuck

No one ever starved in this country before all the government handouts. Private charities, churches and individuals stepped in and would again if given the chance. There could also so be work for food programs...there are many nation building solutions best left to individuals and the private market.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

On this particular item, I think you need to get out there (with some backup) and go through some of the areas like the south side of Chicago, East St. Louis, Detroit, heck, here in South Bend, IN even where there is a 40% vacant housing rate. Yes. 40% non-occupied houses. There are no jobs to be had. Even if some young inner city kid was blessed with parents that cared and provided for him, there is no place for him to make a living. And if you have no money, you can't even afford to move to a place where there IS employment. It is bad.

Does my 6 years working in Cabrini-Green qualify me as having been "out there"?
You are absolutely correct about the appalling conditions.
Again, pull aside the curtain, which policies led to the conditions of which you speak?
Were they the ones that encouraged people to work? or was it the easy access to welfare programs that led to "no jobs" "no hope".
When you have a strong church presence in these areas, are the gang problems as bad?
Even thought I might strongly disagree with their politics, I do admire the Black Muslims in the inner city for encouraging people to become self-sufficient and not depend on a government hand out.
Because the one thing that a hand-out robs a person of is pride, and if you lose that, you don't have a heck of a lot left IMHO.

 

[2manyrocks]

Referring back to my post #74, some people who legitimately need help don't receive it, but the ones who know how to game the system get the benefits.

A friend of mine runs the local charitable help center, and she spends a lot of time screening out the ones who go from center to center picking up cash and services. There's only so much to go around, and she has to work to be sure what is available goes to those who need it most. But she definitely has to screen out the thieves.

One guy who had been given money by a local pastor stole a wallet during choir practice at Christmas at the next church down the street, and then he made up a story that the pastor at the Methodist church had given him the money he had stolen.

Cost is a reality. Tennessee ditched the Tenncare system a few years ago because the program had grown to the point that it couldn't afford it. People moved here from everywhere to get on Tenncare. After financial reality set in, the system had to be changed. State governments can't print their own money, and so they have to come to terms with reality a lot faster.

All this discussion reminds me of the time I asked my Daddy what it was like when he grew up. He said that people used to be able to have more in those days because the government didn't take so much in taxes at all levels for all the different things that are taxed. If you add up all the levels of taxation, it's a lot higher than people realize.

And as I recall, membership in most mainline denominations has fallen to levels below that in the 1930's, and it's estimated that church giving is somewhere around 3% not 10%.

 

[dave1949]

Does my 6 years working in Cabrini-Green qualify me as having been "out there"?
You are absolutely correct about the appalling conditions.
Again, pull aside the curtain, which policies led to the conditions of which you speak?
Were they the ones that encouraged people to work? or was it the easy access to welfare programs that led to "no jobs" "no hope".
When you have a strong church presence in these areas, are the gang problems as bad?
Even thought I might strongly disagree with their politics, I do admire the Black Muslims in the inner city for encouraging people to become self-sufficient and not depend on a government hand out.
Because the one thing that a hand-out robs a person of is pride, and if you lose that, you don't have a heck of a lot left IMHO.

First, I am not pulling the race card on anyone here. Just a sociological observation.

The cities/areas being discussed are primarily minority dominated. From my viewpoint at least, there is a lot more going on to cause chronic poverty than just welfare handouts. It is impossible to separate the current problems from the extreme discrimination of the past and the lingering discrimination of the present. Just cannot be done. A lot of progress has been made, but it takes time that is measured in generations.

Judging the merits or lack of merits for welfare-like programs while ignoring the root causes has no validity. It is a largely useless exercise.

Poor people of any ethnicity are discriminated against, just look at how popular new Section 8 housing is in an existing neighborhood. Add racial history issues to that, and we have a problem that is not simple. Moss pointed out several of those problem attributes.

Because it is not a simple problem, applying the usual logic has not provided any quick solutions.
Dave.

 

[brin]

Dave- Just a few questions...

How many years will it take for discrimination to stop being an excuse and by that I mean, if I felt I was being discrimnated against uniformly througout the contry I would leave. I would realize I could not force folks to accept me but on the other hand if I saw others of my race , religion or circumstance fitting in and being productive I would try to put aside my own pejudices and hate and fit in.

I know this for sure ..handouts will only require more handouts...work must be rewarded and when those who don't work get the same reward as folks who do work the whole thing collapses ...since there is no longer any incentive to work or achieve.sociological observation only.

Look what happened as a result of LBJ's Great Society...! Just the way I see it.

 

[dave1949]

Dave- Just a few questions...

How many years will it take for discrimination to stop being an excuse and by that I mean, if I felt I was being discrimnated against uniformly througout the contry I would leave. I would realize I could not force folks to accept me but on the other hand if I saw others of my race , religion or circumstance fitting in and being productive I would try to put aside my own pejudices and hate and fit in.

I know this for sure ..handouts will only require more handouts...work must be rewarded and when those who don't work get the same reward as folks who do work the whole thing collapses ...since there is no longer any incentive to work or achieve.sociological observation only.

Look what happened as a result of LBJ's Great Society...! Just the way I see it.

I don't know how many years Bob. I can only say it isn't just an excuse. When Obama ran for President, I didn't have to go far amongst my family and friends to find those who would never consider voting for an African American, regardless of his politics. Just wasn't going to happen. If you are caucasian, I would guess you know folks who feel the same way without thinking too hard on it. I personally believe that some percentage of the Tea Party demonstrators didn't become Constitutional 'experts' until we had an African American President either. They try to hide behind 'birther' and middle name of Hussein nonsense. I see it as something else.

Using Obama as an example, he was raised by a caucasian mother and grandparents. He did not claw his way out of the projects, in other words, he shares a lot of culture with caucasians.

It is their country too. Shortly before the Revolution, 20% of the population was African American. Mostly slaves or servants for life. The Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights did nothing to change their slave status. The US Constitution and the State's Constitutions - used between the Declaration Of Independence and the ratification of the US Constitution - for the most part legally protected slavery. Some signers of the US Constitution were slave owners, including the man who wrote it.

When African Americans were able to join the middle class in the northern states, as a result of non-discriminatory employment laws, they were shunned by caucasian society. That is the basis for white flight which began in the 1960's leaving broken communities behind.

Following the civil war through the first half of the 20th century, many blacks in the south were robbed of the farms and property which they legally owned. The judges, lawyers, sheriffs and juries were all white people and saw blacks as less than equal. That might still be the case without LBJ's civil rights push of the mid-sixties. Over and over again the life forced on blacks in this country has been very discriminatory.

From the earliest days of the American Colonies until the mid-1960's, African Americans were either slaves or powerless to participate in the American culture as we think of it. Naturally, during this time period, they developed their own culture - wouldn't you or I? They didn't reject white culture, they told very clearly to keep out of it. It would be unreasonable to expect two cultures with a goodly amount of ill feeling between them to heal in one or two generations.

To this day, the black and white cultures of our country have never truly joined. Or the white and hispanic. Hopefully they get a little closer as time goes on. Did you know that this year, 2010, may be the first year that non-white births exceed white births in the US?

Look at two areas of American life - the military and professional sports. There are many, many examples of African Americans who have excelled in those two areas. They also happen to be the two most color blind institutions we have in our country. That should tell us something Bob.

I do agree that LBJ's Great Society housing projects were dismal failures. I will still take his efforts as a good faith attempt to solve a very old and entrenched problem. I don't know where else in the world we may look to find solutions that work. Racial harmony is difficult to achieve given our history.
Dave.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

I don't know how many years Bob. I can only say it isn't just an excuse. When Obama ran for President, I didn't have to go far amongst my family and friends to find those who would never consider voting for an African American, regardless of his politics. Just wasn't going to happen. If you are caucasian, I would guess you know folks who feel the same way without thinking too hard on it. I personally believe that some percentage of the Tea Party demonstrators didn't become Constitutional 'experts' until we had an African American President either. They try to hide behind 'birther' and middle name of Hussein nonsense. I see it as something else.

Using Obama as an example, he was raised by a caucasian mother and grandparents. He did not claw his way out of the projects, in other words, he shares a lot of culture with caucasians.

It is their country too. Shortly before the Revolution, 20% of the population was African American. Mostly slaves or servants for life. The Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights did nothing to change their slave status. The US Constitution and the State's Constitutions - used between the Declaration Of Independence and the ratification of the US Constitution - for the most part legally protected slavery. Some signers of the US Constitution were slave owners, including the man who wrote it.

When African Americans were able to join the middle class in the northern states, as a result of non-discriminatory employment laws, they were shunned by caucasian society. That is the basis for white flight which began in the 1960's leaving broken communities behind.

Following the civil war through the first half of the 20th century, many blacks in the south were robbed of the farms and property which they legally owned. The judges, lawyers, sheriffs and juries were all white people and saw blacks as less than equal. That might still be the case without LBJ's civil rights push of the mid-sixties. Over and over again the life forced on blacks in this country has been very discriminatory.

From the earliest days of the American Colonies until the mid-1960's, African Americans were either slaves or powerless to participate in the American culture as we think of it. Naturally, during this time period, they developed their own culture - wouldn't you or I? They didn't reject white culture, they told very clearly to keep out of it. It would be unreasonable to expect two cultures with a goodly amount of ill feeling between them to heal in one or two generations.

To this day, the black and white cultures of our country have never truly joined. Or the white and hispanic. Hopefully they get a little closer as time goes on. Did you know that this year, 2010, may be the first year that non-white births exceed white births in the US?

Look at two areas of American life - the military and professional sports. There are many, many examples of African Americans who have excelled in those two areas. They also happen to be the two most color blind institutions we have in our country. That should tell us something Bob.

I do agree that LBJ's Great Society housing projects were dismal failures. I will still take his efforts as a good faith attempt to solve a very old and entrenched problem. I don't know where else in the world we may look to find solutions that work. Racial harmony is difficult to achieve given our history.
Dave.

Whoaaaaaa-------
I go to town,and now were discussing RACE.
Let me get a post in here BEFORE the inevitable
Dave; Yea I guess we can discuss the original sin of slavery of which America is of course guity. But can we at least acknowledge that we have a President who has African roots. Is that not progress?
Or our we to be whipped forever with what at the time WAS an almost universally accepted practice.
Anytime someone says "Well not to play the race card-----BUT" Well you know its going to be a big but
To try and return to MY original posting vis-a-vis privacy.
I am reading Hayek's book "The Road to Serfdom".
It was published appx 60 yrs ago. It is almost as if you could tear a page from any of todays newspapers and compare them as identical. Very Scary stuff!
One of his points is that in most societies, people have to give up their rights to either a "collective" or centrally planned governments in order to gain some amorphous "good" I highly recommend it, if you can find it. I ordered it from my library, 14 holds, and two copies
And to your point about Section 8 housing, I have some experience with it as a landlord, and can tell you that in a fairly short period of time, you probably won't recognize your neighborhood.
after rereading your post, must correct you on fact,
I read "Dreams from my Father" He was not raised by his mother, She abandoned him to resume her college career.
He was raised by his Grandparents.

 

[dave1949]

Whoaaaaaa-------
I go to town,and now were discussing RACE.
Let me get a post in here BEFORE the inevitable
Dave; Yea I guess we can discuss the original sin of slavery of which America is of course guity. But can we at least acknowledge that we have a President who has African roots. Is that not progress?
Or our we to be whipped forever with what at the time WAS an almost universally accepted practice.
Anytime someone says "Well not to play the race card-----BUT" Well you know its going to be a big but
To try and return to MY original posting vis-a-vis privacy.
I am reading Hayek's book "The Road to Serfdom".
It was published appx 60 yrs ago. It is almost as if you could tear a page from any of todays newspapers and compare them as identical. Very Scary stuff!
One of his points is that in most societies, people have to give up their rights to either a "collective" or centrally planned governments in order to gain some amorphous "good" I highly recommend it, if you can find it. I ordered it from my library, 14 holds, and two copies
And to your point about Section 8 housing, I have some experience with it as a landlord, and can tell you that in a fairly short period of time, you probably won't recognize your neighborhood.
after rereading your post, must correct you on fact,
I read "Dreams from my Father" He was not raised by his mother, She abandoned him to resume her college career.
He was raised by his Grandparents.

Yes, I did digress unfortunately. The question was asked, so I gave a viewpoint. I did say mother and grandparents, give me partial credit .

We have made progress, we have a ways to go. I find a lot of hope in the kids of today. They have grown up in a different society than we did.

The Section 8 housing thing is a repeat of housing projects, just done a smaller scale it seems. It is hardly ever done as one house in a stable neighborhood. It's always something silly like, Oh, there's an abandoned school building, lets convert it to Section 8 housing. The seeds of failure are planted before anyone moves in.

The book sounds interesting. I read the wikipedia article on it. I see there is also a cartoon version on youtube! Google the book title to find it.

Here is one comment from the article:
The libertarian economist Walter Block has observed critically that while the The Road to Serfdom makes a strong case against centrally-planned economies, it appears only lukewarm in its support of pure laissez-faire capitalism, with Hayek even going so far as to say that "probably nothing has done so much harm to the liberal cause as the wooden insistence of some liberals on certain rules of thumb, above all the principle of laissez-faire capitalism". In the book, Hayek writes that the government has a role to play in the economy through the monetary system (a view that he later withdrew[18]), work-hours regulation, social welfare, and institutions for the flow of proper information.[19]

The reviews and comments are all over the map. General Motors distributed it as a pamphlet to it's employees back in the commie scare days. As a kid I read a lot of Reader's Digests. They were hung up on two things, commies and mafioso. There was one around every corner as they told it.
Dave.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

If you get a chance ,read it. He does have some views about capitalism that you might find interesting.
One other thing about your previous post that I wanted to
critique was the point about blacks and the post war exodus to the North. I don't think that most blacks who did migrate north would describe themselves as"middle class". Working class perhaps, but not middle.
Some of my strongest childhood memories was being on some picket lines with my Dad.
At the time, a lot of blacks were employed as strike breakers and the real pejorative term used was "scab" albeit no one will deny the "n" word was used very liberally. When one is faced with losing your job to somebody, I guess its only human to use the most obvious feature of the person you are looking at.
I think that to characterize the "suburbanization" of America is somehow tied to racism is a rather broad stroke of the brush. I think that most people move to get better schools, more land, better housing, and that includes minorities.
BTW Did it ever dry out there?