Retorquing wheels

[Johnp33]

If the wheel nut has a flat washer made to slip then I use the gear oil on that.

 

[43WLC]

If the wheel nut has a flat washer made to slip then I use the gear oil on that.

Thanks John.
If you are using flat washers, have you met these.
I understand they are frequently used under flat wheel nuts and bolts.

Kind Regards, Mike

 

[Johnp33]

On a class eight the new style is a nut with a captive washer, and you are suppose to lube the washer to nut section so the washer does not turn on the rim,
On a lot of aluminum auto rims they use a washer I lube them between the nut and washer also.
If you look at a rim and it has a rust streak spokeing away from the studs that wheel is loose.

 

[43WLC]

On a class eight the new style is a nut with a captive washer, and you are suppose to lube the washer to nut section so the washer does not turn on the rim,
On a lot of aluminum auto rims they use a washer I lube them between the nut and washer also.
If you look at a rim and it has a rust streak spokeing away from the studs that wheel is loose.

Thank you for that information John

Kind Regards, Mike

 

[Scotty370]

You don't put any on the shoulders of the nut then Scotty?

Kind Regards, Mike

In a word: "No"! But in listening to others, I want to say that all of my applications have been with "cone" nuts, (on Cars/trucks) and "Cone" bolts, on my Boats trailers, etc. I just moderately treat the threads. ~Scotty

PS- I don't think I've ever seen a 'spinning' washer on a wheel-mount fastener. ~S

 

[oldballs]

If we are talking about the same thing, my F250 has a spin washer on the lug nuts. The owner's manual advises putting one drop of 30W oil on the washer only when remounting and torquing in sequence.

 

[43WLC]

If we are talking about the same thing, my F250 has a spin washer on the lug nuts. The owner's manual advises putting one drop of 30W oil on the washer only when remounting and torquing in sequence.

Thanks for that information Oldballs.
That's interesting, since they tell you to use oil, I guess they also tell you a torque setting for bolts with oiled washers.

Mike

 

[43WLC]

In a word: "No"! But in listening to others, I want to say that all of my applications have been with "cone" nuts, (on Cars/trucks) and "Cone" bolts, on my Boats trailers, etc. I just moderately treat the threads. ~Scotty

PS- I don't think I've ever seen a 'spinning' washer on a wheel-mount fastener. ~S

Thanks Scotty.
Like you, I work mainly with cone nuts.
I'd come to the conclusion that cone bolts or nuts shoulders galling (cold welding) to the wheels was a major factor in making them difficult to get off.
Like you, I've greased wheel bolts studs for years, and not had a problem with them loosening.
Unlike you, I've greased the shoulders.

Now my truck, which develops more power, goes round corners faster, and stops faster has 5 skinny bolts instead of 6 butch bolts. Not mention much less metal in the wheel and carries the same weight.
So I'm scratching my head a bit about mixing the old ways with new technology.
Kinda like new wine in old bottles?
Anyhoew, that's why I am interested in learning from other's experience.

The only times I've come across spinning (I know them as captive washers) is on aluminium wheels.

The reason I know for using spinning washer is that the guys in the tyre shops were running the nuts with Windy's.
The nuts spread the soft aluminiun making the wheels unusable.

To get over the problem, manufacturers fitted the spinning washers.

Mike

 

[Scotty370]

I can see where torquing a steel cone nut repeatedy, into an Aluminun rim, could result in [rim] metal loss. Guess I've been fortunate not to have to change tires enough that it's been an issue........ ~S

 

[43WLC]

I can see where torquing a steel cone nut repeatedy, into an Aluminun rim, could result in [rim] metal loss. Guess I've been fortunate not to have to change tires enough that it's been an issue........ ~S

From what I understood, the tyre fitters just let rip with their air wrenches.

The inertia from the tool, combined with the power of the wrench wound the cone nut into the aluminium.

I've also seen steel rims that folks reckon to have been damaged by over-tightened wheel nuts.

Mike

 

[dennis52]

I have one good "click off" type torque wrench that only measures up to 80 ft/lb.

I also have an old style 1 ft long pointer bar type wrench which measures to100ft lb.

The torque setting for my tractor front wheel nuts is 120 ft/lb and the rear wheel nuts are about 240 ft /lb

Up until now, I have had to improvise to get an approximate torque setting

I use a 1 ft long 1/2" swivel drive breaker bar and a little more force than I would normally use to get to 100ft/lb on my pointer torque wrench, to get my 120ft /lb.

For the rear nuts I figured that if I use a breaker bar twice as long (2ft) with the same force I should be getting around 240 ft/lb.

Does this seem reasonable to those more knowledgeable?

I also decided, after reading this enlightening thread, to have another look at some torque wrenches in the auto store.

While inspecting the different ratings of the wrenches , a couple of things puzzled me.

The store was selling a 1//4 " drive, one ft long torque wrench that claimed to measure from 40 up to 250ft /lb.

On a different rack was a 1/2" drive two ft long torque wrench that would only measure up to 150 ft/lb

It seems to me that it might be difficult for an average man to have the strength to achieve 250ft lb with a one ft long bar.

Similarly, can any single torque wrench accurately measure a torque range from 40ft/lb to 250ft/lb

 

[43WLC]

I have one good "click off" type torque wrench that only measures up to 80 ft/lb.

I also have an old style 1 ft long pointer bar type wrench which measures to100ft lb.

The torque setting for my tractor front wheel nuts is 120 ft/lb and the rear wheel nuts are about 240 ft /lb

Up until now, I have had to improvise to get an approximate torque setting

I use a 1 ft long 1/2" swivel drive breaker bar and a little more force than I would normally use to get to 100ft/lb on my pointer torque wrench, to get my 120ft /lb.

For the rear nuts I figured that if I use a breaker bar twice as long (2ft) with the same force I should be getting around 240 ft/lb.

Does this seem reasonable to those more knowledgeable?

I also decided, after reading this enlightening thread, to have another look at some torque wrenches in the auto store.

While inspecting the different ratings of the wrenches , a couple of things puzzled me.

The store was selling a 1//4 " drive, one ft long torque wrench that claimed to measure from 40 up to 250ft /lb.

On a different rack was a 1/2" drive two ft long torque wrench that would only measure up to 150 ft/lb

It seems to me that it might be difficult for an average man to have the strength to achieve 250ft lb with a one ft long bar.

Similarly, can any single torque wrench accurately measure a torque range from 40ft/lb to 250ft/lb

I guess the 1/4" drive measured in pound inches (lb/ins) Dennis.

Guessing your torque with a breaker bar is a pretty iffy business.
It depends how good you are at guessing weight when you lift something.

If you know how much strength it takes to lift say 56lb, and apply that lift 26" along the bar, you'll get near enough 120ft lbs of torque at the nut.
If you apply that lift 52" along the bar, you'll get near enought to 240ft/lbs at the nut.
I divided 120 by 56 and multiplied by 12 to find the distance up the bar.

If my explanation of the laws of levers isn't up to spec Dennis, please ask about the bits I didn't explain well.

Kind Regards, Mike

 

[dennis52]

I guess the 1/4" drive measured in pound inches (lb/ins) Dennis.

Guessing your torque with a breaker bar is a pretty iffy business.


Kind Regards, Mike

I'll check the shop to see if it was inches/pounds. I am constantly converting between metric and non metric measures and might have missed that one.

It seems to me that the most I could reasonably lift with one arm would be about 120 lb

I would then guess that the maximum torque I could get with a one foot breaker bar would be about 120 ft lb and likewise 240 ft lb from a two foot bar.

I know this is all estimation but I am only checking the tightness of the nuts (every 50hrs) not setting the torque

When my mechanic swapped rear wheels, for widening, at my free 50hr home service he used a breaker bar to re tighten the nuts.

This is when I decided to also use this method.

 

[RoyJackson]

I know this is all estimation but I am only checking the tightness of the nuts (every 50hrs) not setting the torque

When my mechanic swapped rear wheels, for widening, at my free 50hr home service he used a breaker bar to re tighten the nuts.

This is when I decided to also use this method.

You should consider torque striping the nuts.
Pretty simple thing to do...

Use a paint marker (color should contrast with the threads, nut and adjacent wheel surface).
Just mark a line (as straight as possible...use a straightedge if you can) from the stud thread, across the nut then on to the wheel.

If the nut comes loose, the painted lines would not be aligned. Makes for a very simple visual examination of the wheel nuts (or bolts, if the tractor uses bolts).

 

[dennis52]

You should consider torque striping the nuts.
Pretty simple thing to do...

Use a paint marker (color should contrast with the threads, nut and adjacent wheel surface).
Just mark a line (as straight as possible...use a straightedge if you can) from the stud thread, across the nut then on to the wheel.

If the nut comes loose, the painted lines would not be aligned. Makes for a very simple visual examination of the wheel nuts (or bolts, if the tractor uses bolts).

Thanks Roy,
I actually took note of your welcome advice earlier in this thread and thought: what a great idea. I intend painting the witness line once I am confident about the torque settings. Thank you.

As mentioned, I have checked my wheel and loader nuts regularly, with the breaker bars, since purchase 210 hrs ago. They got a little loose in the first 10 hrs but since then nothing much.

As I have reversed the rims to widen the wheels, the rim nuts are now on the inside of the rear wheels; witness lines will save a lot of cramped stretching that I have had to do to get at these nuts.

I looked at all the nuts again this morning (this is your tomorrow here and I wouldn't bother getting out of bed !) and even with a 2ft breaker bar it certainly seems like you would have to use a lot of force to over tighten those 250 ft lb nuts. But I'm no expert and fairly cautious.

Don't really want to spend another $100 on a third torque wrench

 

[Johnp33]

First thing, a torque wrench is not something you want to cheap out on. I buy the best I can. I have a Snap-on 3/4 drive, click stop, that is older than a lot of the people on this site and is extremely accurate to 600 ft lbs. I have the test documentation to prove it.
I have a 1/2 inch click stop Snap-on to 250 lbs. I have a 3/8 to 50 lbs, click stop, Snap on. I have a 3/8 Craftsman inch pound, click stop to 250 in lbs. I have a dial 3/8 inch lbs to 150 from snap-on.
A good torque wrench is the most important tool in your tool box.
Just a thought!

 

[Johnp33]

Many time when a wheel comes loose the nuts may not back off the mounting surface of the rim to the hub may wear and be loose. Rust or corrosion can torque tight and when the unit moves the corrosion will come loose, and then the rim is loose.

 

[43WLC]

Use a paint marker (color should contrast with the threads, nut and adjacent wheel surface).
Just mark a line (as straight as possible...use a straightedge if you can) from the stud thread, across the nut then on to the wheel.

There's no doubt a paint line is a good system Roy. What do you reckon to those pointy things that sit on the wheel nuts and tell the story from the 25 yard line please?

Mike

 

[43WLC]

I would then guess that the maximum torque I could get with a one foot breaker bar would be about 120 ft lb and likewise 240 ft lb from a two foot bar.

I know this is all estimation but I am only checking the tightness of the nuts (every 50hrs) not setting the torque

I've got a bit of a guilt complex now Dennis.
According to experts, and I'm not one of them, but what they said seemed reasonable when I looked into it.
Anyhow, according to experts, if you are a strong man, once you go beyond your half way mark, you get clumsy.
Guesstimating torque and clumsy don't get on that well.
Which is why I chose a 50lb lift.

I'm with John all the way when he says "A good torque wrench is the most important tool in your tool box.".
I've just bought a torque wrench from Ebay to keep in my motor for when I get a puncture.
It cost me peanuts really, around 75Oz$.
500 or 600Oz$ new.

It's top of the range, and the man says less than a year old.
Ok, I've taken a bit of a risk buying 2nd hand.

In this instance, I bought the old fashioned break-back sort because they are pretty indestructable.
The modern click sort go down because spanner men use cheater bars on them, (to undo tight wheel nuts).

I could get it tested, and if necessary calibrated.
Testing/calibrating is a running cost really.
If you remember the old steelyard, you'll know the basis for a homemade torque wrench tester.

Kind Regards, Mike

 

[43WLC]

As mentioned, I have checked my wheel and loader nuts regularly, with the breaker bars, since purchase 210 hrs ago. They got a little loose in the first 10 hrs but since then nothing much.

I nicked this off a site dedicated to wheel safety.
"Rechecking wheel security
Nuts may loosen after a short time as they settle down. As a result of this,
they need to be re-torqued after 30 minutes whether the vehicle
has moved or not or after the vehicle has travelled 25-50 miles
(40-80km).14 Nuts should not be slackened and re-tightened, but simply
tightened to the level recommended by the manufacturer, in the
recommended pattern. Nuts should be re-torqued using a calibrated
torque wrench. Because torque wrenches are expensive many
operators do not supply them to drivers. It may therefore be more
practical for a mechanic to re-torque wheel nuts after 30 minutes,
rather than a driver doing it once the vehicle has moved."
http://www.wheelsure.co.uk/Images/Brake.pdf