Question about brakes?

[GreatWhitehunter]

I need some help. I have an f250 4x4 PSD and I've had lots of brake issues. When I first got it the front rotors warped in about two month. I was not towing or riding te brakes. The dealer turned the rotors and said I'd be allset. After about three more incidents with the rotors watping in the same time frame the dealer replaced the front rotors and inspected the rest of the system. Again it's allset and you won't have any more issues. Since the rotor replacement it's happened another three times. The last time they claimed a retainer clip had fell off and held the pad to the rotor. I notice no symtoms of this however. I asked if it was possible that the rears were not working and that was causing the front brake to do all the work. The dealer simply dismeissed it and said I'd be allset. Well it's been another few months and the brakes are pusing again. I want to have my information together when I call them on Tuesday so I thought I'd ask here for advice. I should mention that my esp has covered some of these brake repairs but there's a $100 deductable I've paid a few times.

Matt T.

 

[Skyco]

You don't say what year your F250 is. I've had some brake problems with my 96 F350, warped some rotors and cracked some too. Then I found out how to stop the problem-
When coming to a stop particularly after a long grade where the brakes are hot, even empty, when you get to the stop sign/traffic light/whatever, do NOT sit there with your foot on the brakes. Stop a little short and creep forward a foot or two every few seconds. The pads cover part of the disk of course and it is the uneven cooling, if you stay on the brakes in one spot-I believe, that causes the warping/cracking. Since I figured this out I've had no more brake problems the last few years

 

[BarryinMN]

Ouch. Warped rotors come from heat. Drilled & slotted rotors help. If you are not hitting the brakes fast & hard then it is in the hardware. The rubber hoses can swell up & close off the return oil path not releasing the calipers. Hit the brakes & warm up then go for an uninterrupted cruise feel the hubs & calipers if hot there you go.

How about front end alignment; bent, warped or twisted parts could be a contributor. You might need a different dealer to troubleshoot.

 

[GreatWhitehunter]

It's an 04, I due keep my foot on the brake when I'm at a light,but I drive almost all highway so I'm not so sure it's that. I appreciate the replies.

Matt T.

 

[Spiveyman]

I have an '01 F150, so you may be in a whole different league than me, but I do all of my own brake work. I just replaced my rear pads and rotors about a week ago, front ones a couple of years ago.

What kind of pads are they using at the dealer? What kind of rotor are they using? If you can find a rotor made in the USA it will cost you more, but it is generally much better steel. Most of the ones being put on these days come from China, and their steel is not as good (generally speaking), meaning more prone to warping under somewhat normal conditions. Their heat treating processes and grades of steel are inferior. I wouldn't be surprised if this warranty work is being done with the cheapest parts they have available - BUT that doesn't explain why it happened with the OEM parts.

The reason I started doing my own brakes is because of stuff like this with "trained professionals." The other thing they do is crank the crap out of your lug nuts. On my last truck I had to replace FIVE different studs due to the guys at the shop over-torquing them with an impact wrench and then when I'd go to rotate the tires the stud would just break.

Anyway, back to your problem, you might try a different grade of pads. Lots of people use Raybestos, I don't like them. I've had great luck with Weaver Gold - they stop great, don't throw lots of dust, don't eat up rotors, and don't squeak like the ceramics. A change in the pad make might help. They are softer and your pads will wear more, but that's better than your rotor wearing excessively. Also, I NEVER let them turn my rotors. That just makes them thinner, more prone to warp... etc. That's just me - I'm a bit hard headed about that, but I use softer pads so that's not a problem. By the way, the only reason I had to replace the rotors is because I tend to have the music up too loud and don't always hear it when the wear indicators tell me to change them. I went too far and got into the rotor. However, using those softer pads, WHEN I change them at the proper time, I've never turned the rotors and have been through several pair of pads in the 100+K miles on my truck.

I've not seen the slotted or drilled rotors for your size truck, although they may exist. Just make sure the holes are random or they will be loud.

I don't know how much any of that will help, but I would have to agree with the thought of trying a different dealer if you don't want to bother with doing it yourself. And, if you really do have a problem it would probably be good to take it to a brake specialist - Midas for instance. If I thought I had a problem I wouldn't fool around with something as important as brakes. Good luck.

 

[Magnum300]

was this a new truck because Fords have a problem with the slide pins in older trucks. if you want to ask a question about a ford truck go to Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums - Ford truck and SUV owners and enthusiasts Community And Information Source.

 

[crbr]

go to Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums - Ford truck and SUV owners and enthusiasts Community And Information Source.

I agree, just as here, a specialty forum is a good place to start for informative collaboration.

 

[KICK]

didya ever think the rear brakes might not be pulling there share of the stopping workload causing the fronts to overheat and warp.

 

[GreatWhitehunter]

That's exactly what I suggested to the dealer the first few times this happened. I posted on the Ford sites and seem to have gotten lots of different possibilitys. I just need to know how I can eliminate them. I'm thinking of new slotted rotors all around and new pads as well. But what if I spend all that money and still have the same issue. I'll be quite upset, is there anyway to trouble shoot them? I'm not to savy when it comes to cars and trucks.

Matt T.

 

[tractorsanmore]

The brakes on these trucks ( f-250, f-350 ) are marginal . If you have larger tires or do a lot of high speed braking , ( interstate ) the rotors are going to warp . The only way to really fix it is to buy aftermarket ( larger in size ) rotors , better calipers and larger pads . The newer ford trucks have larger brakes from the factory , ( 2005 on up )

 

[TheKid]

I have to agree with the others that there is some kind of mechanical issue with your brakes. I have a 2002 F250 PSD with 95K on the original rotors and pads and haven't had any kind of problem. I average 65% hiway and 35% city.

 

[HappyCPE]

I am experiencing the same issue with my '04 F250 PSD. I wonder if the front weight bias on the heavy diesel truck makes a difference? My truck goes to the dealer Friday so I will add anything I learn then, but so far, you folks are a great source of info.

 

[tlbuser]

I am experiencing the same issue with my '04 F250 PSD. I wonder if the front weight bias on the heavy diesel truck makes a difference? My truck goes to the dealer Friday so I will add anything I learn then, but so far, you folks are a great source of info.

It could make a difference. I'm not sure how Ford sets up their proportioning valve for front to rear brake distribution. Also, do they incorporate a load sensing proportional valve? If the front brakes are doing way more than their fair share of the braking action, that will increase the heat load thereby increasing rotor warpage and pad wear and component failure.

 

[MrJimi]

I have a question for all of ya with warped rotors..

How many of ya plow in a deep puddle and make a spray like a racing boat and think it's purty? I have many times and paid dearly for it, now think about a hot rotor hitting a real sudden cold water shock.. It will warp in less than a heartbeat
Thanks and drive through puddles slower now and have round rotors

 

[travis potter]

I agree with spiveyman on not turning the roters even if you have several groves, the pads wear to the graves and you have better breaks [ more area = more brakes ] My 05 F150 needed new roters at 11,000 miles and new front pads at 32,000 miles. My 02 went 60,000 miles on front pads and never replaced the roters, they were still good at 110,000 miles. The new Fords just have BAD brakes, talking to several different shops. Just my 2cents worth.

 

[Spiveyman]

Yeah that puddle thing is for real. Been there too. I also caused a split distributor cap on an older vehicle where the water splashed up in the engine and the temp change cracked the cap. Slow it down and keep a light steady pressure on the breaks through those puddles. Of course that's not been the problem around here lately. I'd glady replace my rotors if we had enough rain to make a puddle!!!

I had an '03 Expedition, which uses the same brakes as the new F150's. They were larger rotors and pads and I loved those brakes compared to my 01 F150. My dad and papaw both have '05 F150's, they pull a party barge and cattle on a gooseneck respectively and both love their brakes, great stopping power, no warpage so far.

 

[john_bud]

I had an '03 Expedition, which uses the same brakes as the new F150's. They were larger rotors and pads and I loved those brakes compared to my 01 F150. My dad and papaw both have '05 F150's, they pull a party barge and cattle on a gooseneck respectively and both love their brakes, great stopping power, no warpage so far.

Is it me, or does it seem like the auto companies (not just ford, the rest too) make a good product, then cheap it down so bad it turns to cow patties - lose market share or get sued, then fix it back to where it was before?


It's not like they don't know how to make brakes!!!

jb

 

[GreatWhitehunter]

Well, I didn't get alot of feedback over on the Ford site. And it seems no one here has any sure fire solution to my problem. I'm thinking I should look into aftermarket pads and rotors. And maybe find another dealer? I don't know enough about the brakes to perform the work myself. So is my feelings on this the groups opinions.

Matt T.

 

[wrenchturner]

I will try to help you determine what is causing your problem.

First let's determine if the problem is in the front or the rear. If the pulsation is felt in the steering wheel as well as the brake pedal then the problem is with the front brakes. If the pulsation is felt when the emergency brakes are applied, then the rear brakes are the problem.

What is the root cause of the brake pedal pulsation? The rotors are wobbling as they turn. Initially the calipers slide with the wobble (unless extreme) but eventually the rotors become thick and thin. This is due to the pads touching harder on the outside then 1/2 round later the inside pad touches harder. The specs are usually for no more then .0005" uneveness. As the thick and thin areas of the rotors pass through the caliper they grip less and more causing unven wear.

What are the causes of the wobble? Just like wood warps due to internal stress, the same can happen to your rotors. Just takes heating and cooling cycles to have the stress show up as warped rotors. I have actually taken new rotors from the box only to find they are warped. Overtightening the lug nuts can cause stress. Also, the mounting surface around the lug studs on the hub and hub itself needs to be clean and flat. Burs wll be evident on the rotors around the holes which can be removed with a file. There is a hollow brush which is mounted on a die grinder that can be used to clean around the studs. Perhaps the hub has excessive runout from the factory. Lastly, cheap rotors from China tend to warp more. I like Bendix and Raybestos which both have been around a long time.

Did your tech use an on car brake lathe? When the rotors are turned on the car they are already placed understress by the tightened lug nuts. When properly done this is the best way to turn rotors.

If the rotors were turned on a bench lathe, wobble could have been cut into the rotors due to uncleanliness, bent brake lathe arbor, or burs on the mounting adapters. Once mounted on the hub, check the runout with a dial indicator. The runout can be reduced by reindexing the rotor on the hub if the hub has runout. I know there are aftermarket shims available with unenen
thickness that can be reindexed to the rotor to eliminate runout. Most limits for runout should be no more than .002". That is literally the thickness of a hair.

What is my opinion on turning rotors. Safety and liability are the most important. When a rotor is grooved even slightly the new pads will not grip as well as they should. Sure they will later as the pads wear to conform to the rotor surface but what happens when the customer leaves the shop and some little girl chases her ball into the street and you cannot stop in time. Who do you think the customer and everybody else is going to blame?
Also, as stated before the rotor probably already as some runout and it is only a matter of time before the rotors become excessively thick and thin causing brake pedal pulsation.

To fix your problem you can have the rotors turned on a bench lathe or on the car. Make sure the rotors are mounted and the runout is within specs. Make sure the mounting surfaces are clean. Make sure the lug nuts are torqued properly. Make sure the calipers are not dragging and both front and rear brakes are working. Put a swirl or non directional finish on the rotors also.

 

[MikeD74T]

My wife & daughter are always on the gas or on the brakes - nothing in between. They get 20k max between rotor turns because of pedal pump/vibration & new shoes. I learned from my father to plan my stops & coast toward them. I've got over 70k on '02 Silverado HD original brakes. I drive 3 miles to work so highway miles isn't the reason for longevity. I've also been told, when fixing wife's/daughter's brakes about releasing the pedal immediately after a hot stop. How quick are your stops ??
I'm a fan of super modified stock car racing. It's always fun to see the new hot drivers agressively braking & accellerating in the first half of a race only to be overtaken by smoother drivers that still have brakes in the second half. MikeD74T