Power Broom build

[kiotiken]

I'm thinking about building a SS attach, hydraulically driven, power angle sweeper for my Kioti CK30. The tractor has a total 12.7 GPM hydraulic flow and I have dual rear remotes to work with. I don't see fabing the frame being a problem at all (I have a walk behind unit now and it's a simple machine), it's the hydraulics I don't have any experience with and need some help with.

Does anybody know how fast this thing is supposed to turn? My current sweeper uses a gear reduction motor followed by a series of gears, so I haven't been able to figure out how fast it runs.

Is there anything special about a motor for this type of application. I was thinking about this one that turns at about 150 rpm, but it's rated for up to 15 GPM. How much will the speed and torque be reduced if I'm only providing 8-10 GPM? 22.6 Cu. In. 4-Bolt Hydraulic Geroter Motor | Princess Auto Will this motor have enough torque for this application, is it too fast, too slow? My only application for the sweeper right now is cleaning snow off my rink before flooding it. Snow flies off the rink because it's on ice, and anything more than a couple of cm I plow first anyway.

How wide of a sweeper do you think this motor (or another one like it) would turn? I need about 62 inches to cover my track, but the wider the better since it will be angled and I have to turn corners.

I was thinking about using both remotes off the back instead of tying into the FEL's dump function. I figure keeping the loader intact will make installing/removing it that much easier. Any issue with that or any advantage to using one remote for the motor and the FEL hydraulics for the angle?

Here's one I was going to base mine on.

 

[BelarusBulldog]

I'd be very interested in seeing this being built, so I hope you post lots of pictures as you progress. Would you be buying the broom part or do you already have one? Like you said, the frame shouldn't be that hard to build. Are you going to mount this to the FEL or on the 3pt. hitch? If on the rear, maybe you could have it PTO driven?

 

[kiotiken]

I had to replace the broom on my walk behind sweeper. You can order new brooms in many different lengths, and they come as separate wafers that assemble on a simple frame (mine is 3 metal bars that form a triangle, but I'm sure there are different versions). I have left over wafers, so I'd probably just buy more of them. I'll just have to see what works out being the cheapest way to get the length I'll need.

I want to add this to the FEL since I have a Skid Steer quick attach system. I also use a rear blade and possibly a rear snow blower in the future (along with a homemade Zamboni built on a box blade).

LOTS of pictures will come if I build it, but for now, I'm in the idea phase, so they may be a while coming.

 

[oughtsix]

150rpm @ 15gpm should equal 100rpm @ 10gpm

 

[kiotiken]

150rpm @ 15gpm should equal 100rpm @ 10gpm

15 GPM is the max. rated flow. Is the max flow where the RPM rating is measured for hydraulic motors?

 

[Luremaker]

That would be a great build. Why not look at the specs on the brooms your dealers sells. That way you know your are getting the right hydraulic motor.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

15 GPM is the max. rated flow. Is the max flow where the RPM rating is measured for hydraulic motors?

Yep. Max flow = max speed.

 

[J_J]

With your 15 GPM, and you thinking it will turn at about 150, that computes to a 23 cu in hyd motor.

If you feed that motor 15 GPM, and the motor can run at 2500 psi, that will produce a torque of about 9156 in lbs, or 763 ft lbs.

 

[oughtsix]

Are you thinking of Direct driving the broom or a belt drive or something?

A belt drive would give you a bit of a clutch to keep things from tearing apart if you wrapped up a cable or chain or big object by accident. It would also allow for easily changing the final drive speed of the broom by swapping pulleys.

For direct drive you might want to consider a hydraulic wheel motor rather than a hydraulic motor. A hydraulic wheel motor has bearings for handling side loads where most regular hydraulic motors don't. I guess it depends on whether you are going to use the motor to mount one side of the broom or if you are going to put bearings on each side of the broom. Hydraulic wheel motors generally have tapered shafts... just something to be aware of.

 

[kiotiken]

Are you thinking of Direct driving the broom or a belt drive or something?

A belt drive would give you a bit of a clutch to keep things from tearing apart if you wrapped up a cable or chain or big object by accident. It would also allow for easily changing the final drive speed of the broom by swapping pulleys.

For direct drive you might want to consider a hydraulic wheel motor rather than a hydraulic motor. A hydraulic wheel motor has bearings for handling side loads where most regular hydraulic motors don't. I guess it depends on whether you are going to use the motor to mount one side of the broom or if you are going to put bearings on each side of the broom. Hydraulic wheel motors generally have tapered shafts... just something to be aware of.

Well, I keep going back and forth on direct drive and chain/belt drive. The big advantage to chain drive for me would be not having the motor sticking out the side since I will want to be as tight as possible against the boards. The other huge advantage is as you say, I would be able to change the speed by simply changing out a gear.

I'll have to look at how much a wheel motor would cost. The problem with this kind of thing is always the cost, if you spend too much building it, you could just have bought one, and to me, that takes a little bit away from the satisfaction I'd get building my own.

If I have a total 12.7 GPM hydraulic flow available, anybody have a guess how much this attachment would have available if I'm moving in mid range at a moderate speed? (tractor is HST, loader set and not moving, using power steering to turn at each end). I'd like to size the motor to give approx. 150 rpm with the flow I have available. All motors I've seen seem to have a max flow rating of 15 GPM

Does anybody have a guess how much torque I'd need to turn an 86 inch broom (mostly light snow on ice)?

 

[oughtsix]

I am definitely no expert on hydraulics! My understanding from researching my projects is that side load should be of concern when selecting a hydraulic motor. Side load, of course, being the external force pushing against the shaft of the motor in a direction other than parallel to the motor shaft. Specifically the weight of the wheel and vehicle when using the motor in a direct drive arrangement or the tension from belts when using the motor in a belt drive configuration. (Anyone that would like to offer a better definition... please feel free to jump in).

Wheel motors are made with a bearing arrangement to handle side loads. The problem you might come across is the shaft on most wheel motors are tapered to mount a wheel hub. You might find it difficult to mount a pulley or cog on this tapered shaft.

Here are some HiTorque low speed Hydraulic motors. Make sure to research side loads when implement these in your design:
https://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?catname=hydraulic&keyword=HMHS

Here are Some wheel motors: https://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?catname=hydraulic&keyword=

I would estimate a 15cu in to 20cu in motor as being in the neighborhood of what you are looking for giving you a shaft rpm of around 150 to 200 with about 15gpm. If you think your flow might dip to the 8 to 10gpm range you will probably want to stay at the 15cu in end of the range.

My guestimate is that 15gpm @ 2000psi should be plenty to turn a 86 in long broom riding on ice. You could calculate the horse power transmitted by 15gpm x 2000psi to be sure... but my in my head calculations says that the power should be somewhere in the neighborhood of plenty.

What do the ends of the shaft the brooms mount on look like? It seems like the shaft should be designed to be not too difficult to remove for changing brooms? I kind of like the idea of a triple belt drive in that is should transfer plenty of power but still have a bit of slip if needed. A pillow block on each end of the broom shaft sounds like a promising design to me.

 

[kiotiken]

... Specifically the weight of the wheel and vehicle when using the motor in a direct drive arrangement or the tension from belts when using the motor in a belt drive configuration. (Anyone that would like to offer a better definition... please feel free to jump in).

This is exactly why I started this thread, I wasn't aware of the difference before it was pointed out by a few responses.

I'm starting to lean back towards a chain drive system. This would allow me to mount the motor on a movable plate to add or remove tension. I may also be able to mount the motor with a sprocket and then have that slip into a bearing mounted to the plate in front of the motor to reduce side forces on the motor. I would basically have two plates, one mounted to the frame of the sweeper, the other sitting on top of that the motor and bearing mounts to and slides over the first for adjustments.

...If you think your flow might dip to the 8 to 10gpm range you will probably want to stay at the 15cu in end of the range.

Well with a total of only 12.7 available to run the entire tractor/hst/pwr steering, I'm thinking my max available to the broom will be in the neighborhood of 8 to 10gpm. Again, because of these unknowns, I'm really leaning to a chain drive that I can easily gear it up or down.

What do the ends of the shaft the brooms mount on look like? It seems like the shaft should be designed to be not too difficult to remove for changing brooms? I kind of like the idea of a triple belt drive in that is should transfer plenty of power but still have a bit of slip if needed. A pillow block on each end of the broom shaft sounds like a promising design to me.

I really like the idea of a chain drive, simply to reduce maintenance. My walk behind is also a combination of belt and chain, with the final drive to the broom being chain. I hadn't really thought about hitting something like a rope or chain since all my thinking was around cleaning the rink, but now that it's been brought up, I'm thinking of a sheer pin system like a snowblower. I'll just have to do a little research on how strong of a pin I'll need, but it should be an easy addition as long as a single pin at one end can handle the torque over the length of the broom but still break when it should.

I was going to mount bearings to the inside of the broom frame. I will simply remove the bearings to remove the broom. Using the broom for a rink, I will likely never have to change it, but this is how Sweepster built my walk behind. What is a pillow block?

Thanks for all the help guys and keep the tips coming, I'm writing them all down!

 

[J_J]

These are pillow block bearings. They come in all sizes .

Surplus Center

http://www.baileynet.com/

Select Bearings & Bushings, Mobile Products.

Bearings, chains, sprockets and other things

A 20 cu in motor will turn at 147 rpm using 12.7 GPM, and if the motor can develop 2500 psi, you will have about 663 ft lbs of torque.

 

[kiotiken]

OK, I didn't know that was called a pillow bearing, thanks. I was actually planning on using a flange bearing, something more like this 1" Flange Mount with Bearing | Princess Auto

For the motor, I think I'll go for something like a 17.9 cu to give me the 150 rpm between 8 & 10 gpm.

I'm dying to start this, these are all great ideas and it's really coming together in my head. This will be a long build since squeezing time for these kind of projects is always the hardest part of the project.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

... I'm really leaning to a chain drive that I can easily gear it up or down...

Keep in mind that a belt/pulley system can be geared up and down just as easily by swapping out different sizes of pulleys.

 

[kiotiken]

Keep in mind that a belt/pulley system can be geared up and down just as easily by swapping out different sizes of pulleys.

Other than a belt providing a little stretching room and potentially allowing for slip if I hit something, do you see any other advantages for a belt drive over a chain drive?

 

[forgeblast]

When I first read the title I thought that one of the blue barrels could be your shield .
if you cut the end off the barrel and then cut it in half you could bolt it together to make a pretty long shield.

 

[kiotiken]

When I first read the title I thought that one of the blue barrels could be your shield .
if you cut the end off the barrel and then cut it in half you could bolt it together to make a pretty long shield.

Not a bad idea, I'd need to cut up two though since they're only about 36" tall and I'm hoping to go 84" wide.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

Other than a belt providing a little stretching room and potentially allowing for slip if I hit something, do you see any other advantages for a belt drive over a chain drive?

The belt is the optimum slip mechanism in my opinion. You can adjust the slip torque by changing the tension on the belt. I haven't priced it out, but it seems a belt would be cheaper, too.

 

[kiotiken]

OK, I'll buy that, I do get that effect now with the walk behind if I bury the brush too far into a bank. I think I'd need a couple tensioning pullies at each end.

I'll leave this open to more thought. I need to go see a commercial version to see how they're done.