pouring concrete in pole building

[mopower440]

well, im going to pour the concrete probably 2 weeks after i get the roofing up, i am going to have the cement truck come out and me and a few freinds are going to do this, i have heard that it is a hard job but can be done, going to rent a bullfloat for the day, any of you done this yourself and can give some tips on doing it?

 

[Glenn9643]

The best tip I can think of right now is to get ready for some hard work, and more important, get all your questions answered before the concrete truck comes!

 

[rdln]

study up on reinforcement steel, rat walls and control joints. also expansion joints if more than one contiguous slab.

drain construction, slope amounts, features imbedded into and underneath the concrete like deadmen for straightening car frames etc.

If you are going to heat it think about foam insulation and hot water pipes in the floor etc.

If no one has concrete finishing experience find somebody that does.

make sure the truck can get to the barn, they are heavy.

too many possibles to list.

 

[CTyler]

Make sure all your skirt boards are sufficiently braced. I packed dirt and graded it out. I put down 6 mil plastic and rebar 16" OC and 8" OC at the doors 10' long. Ran a taper in the grade prep so the crete was several inches thicker at the door. Used 3/4 crusher run for the base 6-7" thick and packed it with a plate vibrator.

I went with a level floor with slopes to the drains. The drains are right in the middle of each door about 12' in. You could also slope the slab to the door.

I actually hired the crete work done for my 50x64 shop. That was to big for me and freinds to do in a continuous pour. If you can't get a truck in there you may want a pumper truck. Otherwise you'll need a LOT of help getting the crete back there. Unless your freinds are of the manual labor/construction types they will die quick if the floor has any size to it. There was a nine man crew doing mine. They do it for a living and they were beat when done!

I was going to do mine in a couple different pours but the wife wanted it done yesterday.

You didn't say what the size is. A power screed is real handy.

 

[jdmar]

I have only done small pours with friend-type help. I had a 30 x 40 pole barn done about 1-2 years ago and hired it done. That me be "small" to some of you but it is big to me if moving concrete. They had 3-4 guys on the job for about 6 hours and the owner stayed and power buffed/screed until about 8-9 hours. They did a great job because they want my business (35 x 75 barn left to do and redoing homes for a living). But they worked hard and earned every penny. Humping wheel barrow loads of concrete to the corners is not gentle work.

Unless you check ahead of time and make special arrangements your truck may not direct and pour the concrete to the exact spot (spots) you need it. They will pour where they can reach and dump the rest into your waiting wheel barrows. They also usually only give you a preset number of minutes with the truck onsight....if you go slow you pay more.

The worst that can happen: 1) the concrete starts to harden before you are done (can add a retarder). 2)your guys all poop out or have heart attacks before everything is spread (see item 1). 3. You spend so much money keeping the truck onsight that it costs more than having a pro do the whole job(it takes time to fold up and move truck to multiple spots to make your pour go "faster") 4. can you slope conrete and prevent puddling of water in the wrong places? 5. It is more to fun to sit with your friends and share a beer while you watch those guys work. 6. If it goes wrong, you then have to break up the bad pour (less fun than pouring is!) pay to have it removed/dumped...then pay the pros the second time around. big $$$$$ mistake

Hey, I am not trying to convince you to not do the work...really. But you do need to know what can happen and problems you may encounter. I will build an entire pole barn myself without worry...but concrete work...they make pros for that. Unless it is a small pour and you and your friends are strong and do manual labor for a living...get some quotes on the job. You'd be surprised how relativley little these guys charge for doing difficult work.

Best of luck whichever way you go.

Peter

 

[PineRidge]

Peter you summed it up quite nicely.

I also put up a 24 X 36 pole barn 2 years ago. The concrete work is very nice but that only because I hired it out. I'm not a concrete man and I know my limitations. That's one challenge that I'm glad I didn't take on myself.

 

[mopower440]

its a 24x30, i want to do it myself because i just dont have the cash to hire the pros, the cheapest i found was 720.00 just for the labor, not counting the concrete and stuff, i really wish i hadnt built this thing because its costing more than i can handle, well, the concrete part is whats hurting me, everything else maybe ok, but if i cant do it myself then i dont know what to do..i would just build the whole thing and wait on the concrete but i cant, i built this thing where there is a lot of solid rock under the ground and on one whole wall, the posts are only 6"-1' in the ground, so i was going to drill holes in those posts and run rebar into them then out into the floor, then pour the cement, that way the slab would anchor those posts to the ground so the place wouldnt blow away in a bad storm or something..I have a friend thats in construction, he hasnt done cement but has watched the city of nashville pour those big wide sidewalks from start to finish, knows what to do but never actually done it, and yes, we are used to manual labor..but if its that difficult to get right, i dont know what to do..i was planning on putting the metal roofing on this weekend, so with that on and no walls on, the wind could get up under it like an umbrella and pick it up, thats why i wanted to do the concrete SOON. but im feeling discouraged about the whole mess nowadays..lol..

 

[CTyler]

At 24x30 its not that bad but still lots of work. You can do it with 3 or 4 peeps but 5 would really ease the load. You really need one person that knows what thier doing to provide direction, even if its just a supervisory roll. You don't want the concrete getting away from you. Being inside buys you a bit more time vs having the sun and hot weather drying things up quicker.

Also dampen your base before you start. That way the base/ground doesn't suck the moisture from the crete.

 

[rambler]

Here's the problem. If no one on your crew has ever worked concrete, there are 100 different mistakes that will cost you a lot of time (extra $$$) or a poor job (you'll regret it for 20 years +) or cause the whole job to be a failure (cost of the job, removal, and redoing it right = about 3 times letting the pros do it).

With the wood & sheet metal you can spoil a piece, or stop a day or 2 to ask questions or wait for your buddies to follow through on their promises - you mentioned before that some didn't make it to help with the roof like they promised. These little setbacks only cost you time and a dollar or 2, no big deal.

With concrete, you have that day, a few hours, to get it done right or it is a total failure. Think very long & hard on this. Rethink it again. Any problems or questions come up, & you are out the cost of the concrete & probably have the problem of dealing with a botched pile of 'crete. Jumping into this with zero experience can be _very_ costly.

What I would do is spend my money on putting a couple epoxied bars into that bedrock like has been discussed several times, bolt those couple posts to the rock so it is solid, and concentrate on the roof & walls. You can always lay concrete in a year or two. Dirt floors are fine. I think this would be a good use of your time & labor, as limited is it is. It will give you a good shed as soon and as cheaply as you can, with the least chance for a real foul-up that will cost you very much $$$.

In most cases a slab floor should _not_ be anchored to the poles of a pole building in the first place. That is kind of a real bad idea in _my_ area where we have deep frost. It might not be as bad an idea where you are, but it still is not the proper way to go. The poles are anchored in the ground or bedrock, and the slab free-floats on the ground with spacers between the concrete & poles. They should be able to move independently of each other a little bit. Your plan would be a big mistake here in my cold location.

Fruther, how well are you going to prepare your sub-floor if you are this short of funds? You should not pour concrete on black dirt with organics in it. That is a failure in a few years. You at least need to remove the black dirt & put in 4-6" of good gravel. Then tamp the gravel & use rebar for the concrete. I fear you do not have the funds to make a good concrete floor at this time, and a bad concrete floor is worse than worthless.

The ideas the others have for insulation, waterproofing, anchore spots, drains, etc. will make a world of difference in how well you enjoy your building over the next 20 years. You can build a miserable awkward hole of a building, or something that you enjoy being in - only difference is a couple 100 bucks and a month of planning. Please give the floor some thought & design - these additions will look real cheap to you in 5 years when it is too late to do them.

What to do????

Anchor those posts to the bedrock, it will only cost $10-15 a post and be far less work that the floor, get your roof & walls done and have a fine shed.

Deal with the floor in a year when you have the funds to do it right.

My opinion. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I enjoy watching the progress of your work, thank you for sharing this project with us. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

--->Paul

 

[Junkman]

Mopower...... remember the problems you were having with the laser level? The laser level is the one tool that is absolutely positively beyond a doubt necessary for setting concrete if you want a proper floor. If you can't afford to have it done professionally, then don't do it at all. Doing it yourself is like taking the cost of the concrete and putting that amount of money into a pail along with some gasoline and setting it on fire. The concrete job isn't going to come out any where nearly correct and you are going to be living with a poor job that is going to crack and fall apart in a couple of years. You will eventually need to jack hammer it out and replace it and that isn't going to be inexpensive and it is also going to be difficult to make things worse. It is time to realize that you are over your head on this project and there are some things that you are just not capable of and pouring concrete is just one of them. I am not trying to belittle you, but trying to talk some sense into you. I don't want to see you waste money that you don't have to waste. Spend your money wisely and not foolishly. You work hard for what you have and so do the people that do this for a living. You know what you do well and let the people that know what they do well do the job. It only makes sense. Would you want the veterinarian taking out your appendix because he can do it cheaper, or a medical doctor, because he knows what he is doing. Let the concrete expert do the concrete work.

 

[mopower440]

at this point, im going to try to find one guy that has experience in this and try to hire him out for that day to help and give direction so things will be right, i plan on getting the gravel in here this week and getting the wire mesh laid out and the gravel tamped, now, just finding someone that is experienced and willing, this sound better?

 

[Junkman]

Don't forget that there are the tools of the trade that are needed and those are a lot of tools, not just a float. I had a garage floor poured that is 20 x 40. It took 6 guys almost 8 hours from start to finish to get it done. That is tamping the gravel, laying the wire, setting the re-rod, putting down the plastic, putting down the concrete, screeding the concrete, checking the level with the laser level, and polishing the floor with the power trowel to a smooth finish. My floor is 4000 # mix with fiber glass mixed in and is 6" thick. 2 years later no cracks, no problems. I don't remember the yardage, but it was 2 trucks, that I do remember.

 

[NIXON]

this sound better? )</font>
You bet ! I got my experience working concrete while I was working for a general contractor . He put me with the concrete crew for a summer pouring slabs for new houses .
Concrete is funny stuff . If you try to "work "it before it's ready it leaves you with a poorly finished job . If you try to "work" it After it's ready , well .... your Done for .
There's really no way to explain how to do it . It's more of an art form than science . as each job and load of concrete is different . Get at least one person that does it !
It may cost abit more now . But it'll cost you more if the job get's botched . John
EDIT .. Rambler and Junkman pretty much covered the tools and ground prep work . If you don't get the ground work done right , a pretty finish won't stay that way long . And to get a good finish You'll need more than a Bull float and a good Eye .

 

[bebster]

I agree with the points and approach that rambler makes, especially anchoring the posts to the bedrock. If you try to use the slab to anchor the posts, you are assuming that the slab won't break under a heavy wind load lifting on corner or side. This might be false security, as the slab could easily crack under that kind of load. Once it cracks there is even less weight to hold it down, and of course you have a busted floor. Seems to me that a good anchoring to the bedrock now, with a tamped gravel floor for the time being, and then save up for a good concrete floor later will give you a building you'll be happy with over the long haul.

 

[mopower440]

i wont even try to mess with anchoring it to the rock, most of the places the poles are on the rock were crazy, the rock would be wedge shaped, so the pole would be sitting on a ^, so i had to pour concrete in the hole to fill in the void between the point ^ and the soil, so if i drilled, it would be into just a few inches of quickrete, if there was just some other dang way to anchor that one side down, i would be ok, but i have the metal roofing coming in this week and have absolutely no place to store it except out in the yard and i cant afford to have it stolen, so i want to get it on the roof sunday, but without the building being anchored, im afraid of getting one of those spring Tennessee storms and high winds getting up under the roof and picking it up like an umbrella, ive heard too many stories on this board about barns being blown out into the street and stuff...i do have a 8x10 porch i built that has a roof and is freestanding and not connected to the house that has never moved, even through storms, but the house probably blocks a lot of that wind, so..at this point, i wouldnt mind taking the trusses off and taking the whole thing apart and selling the lumber..lol..things went from going good to hopeless in about 2 days, between this concrete/anchoring thing and the gable overhang.

 

[Inspector507]

Don't give up now......stow the metal in the "barn" for now and figure out a way to anchor the posts.........then worry about the roof and the floor. Do it right, as right as you can with the posts setting on rock.

 

[mopower440]

dont have a barn to store the metal in..lol..its just a frame at the moment, and i was told to get the metal up as soon as possible as the trusses will go down hill quick if not covered and they have been exposed to the weather for 2 months now, and like said, dont want the metal roofing to come up missing..gotta be another way to anchor this stupid thing..honestly, how much would it take to pick it up and ruin it? My dad was thinking that it would take a lot and that if it was that bad a storm it would probably destroy the house too, but i dont know, with only a lightweight metal roof, it just seems that it wouldnt take much to pick it up..now, the other posts are 4' in the ground, its just mainly that one side..5 of them that are anywhere from 6"-2'in..

 

[NIXON]

Mopower
I can't believe you intend to surrender ! You've gone this far, don't back out now . A lot of folks believe that they can build something relatively cheaply , only to find out the true cost of building . You're well on the way to being done with your building . See it through . You won't get much from selling the material you have on hand . And You'll still need a garage in the long run . Chalk up your set backs to experience . But don't give in to them . John

 

[Junkman]

Call your insurance agent and put insurance on the barn. If a strong wind takes it away, then the insurance company will build you another one and you can sit back and watch someone else erect it the next time and tell them how to do it. After all, by then, you will be the experienced one! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Put the roof on and the start to save your pennies for having the floor done properly. We will all say a prayer for you that the winds will stay away from your barn. You are too far along to turn back now. You are like Columbus in the middle of the Atlantic ocean.... half way to the new world and half way from Spain.... do you go forward or backward.... the choice is yours.... The crew is saying to sail to the New World.

 

[bebster]

Junkman's right -- sail on! I know the feeling of being overwhelmed by a project when it seems to be controlling you, but if you can just get the next step done, you'll feel better about it. If you've got 3 sides in the ground it's not that likely that the structure will lift from one side only, and if you have insurance you'll be fine if it does. Try to minimize the overhangs where wind can get under the roof or if you have to have it, drill a few holes like they do some road signs to equalize the wind pressure above and below.

But you need to focus on how to get a couple of anchors into the bedrock. Even if you can drill into it 3 to 6 inches you can epoxy in an expansion bolt that will give you lots of hold down power.
Here's a link that describes this (see pg 11)
Focus your energies on that, and put the roof on and some gravel for a floor and it will be land-ho!