Pole Shed Project - Input Always Welcome

[DocD]

Recently I have started a project that I have been working and saving for a number of years. I must admit it is great to see this come together but it is getting rediculous how much steel and general building materials are costing these days. My new shed will be 40X90X16. My shop part will be 40X42 with all walls insulated and finished in steel. The other half 40X48 will be cold storage. It will be all cement flooring and the shop part will have in-floor heat. As you can see I have planned for 5th wheel camper or tall equipment with 14' overhead doors.

I do have questions about the lighting and all input would be welcome. I plan to do fluorescent lighting in the shop part and incandecent in the cold storage along with the eave lighting.

As you can see I also treated myself to a little 3720 JD cab - it is really a nice little machine!

 

[BobG_in_VA]

WOO HOO! Nice Doghouse!! Someone has finally built what I have been thinkin' ! Great job. Get us pics of the inside where your shop will be... BobG in VA

 

[Redbug]

I'm impressed with your pole building, too. I plan to build one in the future and learning with the rest of the gang. You can never have too small of a building and not have enough cement...

 

[keving]

Recently I have started a project that I have been working and saving for a number of years. I must admit it is great to see this come together but it is getting rediculous how much steel and general building materials are costing these days. My new shed will be 40X90X16. My shop part will be 40X42 with all walls insulated and finished in steel. The other half 40X48 will be cold storage. It will be all cement flooring and the shop part will have in-floor heat. As you can see I have planned for 5th wheel camper or tall equipment with 14' overhead doors.

I do have questions about the lighting and all input would be welcome. I plan to do fluorescent lighting in the shop part and incandecent in the cold storage along with the eave lighting.

As you can see I also treated myself to a little 3720 JD cab - it is really a nice little machine!

Nice. I like the color scheme. Check out my pole barn thread and I'll be glad to provide any input!

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/97677-pole-barn-project-pics-40x72x14.html

 

[landman]

WOW, i wouldnt know what to do whith all that space,... Nice building, wish i had that much flat land for mine.

 

[keving]

WOW, i wouldnt know what to do whith all that space,... Nice building, wish i had that much flat land for mine.

I'm sure you could find use for all that space!

This forum is a great place for info and opinion. Please post pics of your progress. Happy building!

 

[mjncad]

Recently I have started a project that I have been working and saving for a number of years. I must admit it is great to see this come together but it is getting rediculous how much steel and general building materials are costing these days. My new shed will be 40X90X16. My shop part will be 40X42 with all walls insulated and finished in steel. The other half 40X48 will be cold storage. It will be all cement flooring and the shop part will have in-floor heat. As you can see I have planned for 5th wheel camper or tall equipment with 14' overhead doors.

I do have questions about the lighting and all input would be welcome. I plan to do fluorescent lighting in the shop part and incandecent in the cold storage along with the eave lighting.

As you can see I also treated myself to a little 3720 JD cab - it is really a nice little machine!

I would consider low or high bay lighting instead of fluorescent for general lighting. You should be able to get by with far fewer fixtures this way. Use the fluorescent lighting for task lighting at work benches and machine tools.

I would also use the fluorescent lighting in the cold side as well. Cheaper to run, and you have to change bulbs less often. Even if you don't turn the lights on often in the cold side, an incandescent bulb always seems to burn out when you are in the middle of something more important.

I like heated floors; but I am leery of in-floor heat for a shop for the following reason; bolting machinery (e.g. lathes, bandsaws, etc) to the floor becomes problematic unless you know exactly where your heat tubes are. You might consider gas/propane fired radiant heat tubes you hang from the ceiling.

Have fun with your new toy box.

 

[DocD]

I would consider low or high bay lighting instead of fluorescent for general lighting. You should be able to get by with far fewer fixtures this way. Use the fluorescent lighting for task lighting at work benches and machine tools.

The inside of the shop part will have white steel ceiling and walls - I would like to stay with the fluorescents as I think they will be cheaper and easier to install.

I would also use the fluorescent lighting in the cold side as well. Cheaper to run, and you have to change bulbs less often. Even if you don't turn the lights on often in the cold side, an incandescent bulb always seems to burn out when you are in the middle of something more important.

The fluorescents will be way more expensive as I would have to get the cold starting ones as it could get as low as 20 - 30 below zero in that part in the dead of winter.

I like heated floors; but I am leery of in-floor heat for a shop for the following reason; bolting machinery (e.g. lathes, bandsaws, etc) to the floor becomes problematic unless you know exactly where your heat tubes are.

I will know exactly were the tubes are as I will measure and map all tubes once they are installed.

You might consider gas/propane fired radiant heat tubes you hang from the ceiling.

I did consider this option and will use the propane heater to bring the temp. from 55 degrees to a comfortable level when I am working in the shop as I will have both infloor and propane heat - but with propane prices and with off-peak electricity - it will be WAY cheaper in the long run to maintain 55 degrees with infloor heat and use the propane heater only when I am actually in the shop.

 

[DocD]

I do have a few more questions for the experts here.... My contractor is telling me that I do not need rebar for my concrete floor. We are currenly set to put down 2 inch 250 density foam insulation - then the pex tubing - then pour on top of this 4 inches of concrete with fiber mesh. Is this a good plan? My biggest equipment may be a triple axle 5th wheel 12,000# trailer some day but otherwise nothing bigger.

My next question is about wiring. I now have planned a 200 AMP service with the electric boiler and am planning to run outlets every 6 feet with conduit on the interior of the shop (over the steel lining). Also will use fluorescent lighting in the shop part and regular 300 watt bulbs in the cold storage part.

I am planning a small office type area in the shop also with a sink, desk, computer, and a small bathroom with stool. I figure this will be heated by the in-floor heat and a small space heater and I am planning for a window airconditioner on the hotter days. Since I have 16ft. sidewalls, I will also have storage above to put stuff on pallets for storage (see new tractor above - also got the loader forks for lifting "stuff" up for storage).

It's my dream shop so any other comments or suggestions will be appreciated.

Thanks,
DW

 

[mjncad]

I do have a few more questions for the experts here.... My contractor is telling me that I do not need rebar for my concrete floor. We are currenly set to put down 2 inch 250 density foam insulation - then the pex tubing - then pour on top of this 4 inches of concrete with fiber mesh. Is this a good plan? My biggest equipment may be a triple axle 5th wheel 12,000# trailer some day but otherwise nothing bigger. No need for rebar! I think your contractor is full of crap! Put in the rebar since you will have all that PEX in the floor creating weak spots to begin with. Plus the rebar will give you tie points for the PEX tubing to keep it from floating around as the concrete is poured and finished. All your mapping will be for naught if that tubing moves around and you don't know where it wandered off to. If you can afford it, I'd go with 6" concrete. The fiberglass in the concrete is added insurance; not a replacement for rebar. Adding rebar upfront is a whole lot cheaper than later should your floor crack and heave and tear your PEX apart. I would think the PEX should be encased in the concrete, and as written, your contractor will have the PEX exposed on the bottom. At least he's putting down insulation. Is the insulation expanded or extruded polystyrene foam sheet? Extruded is better.

My next question is about wiring. I now have planned a 200 AMP service with the electric boiler and am planning to run outlets every 6 feet with conduit on the interior of the shop (over the steel lining). Also will use fluorescent lighting in the shop part and regular 300 watt bulbs in the cold storage part. Would a natural gas or propane boiler be cheaper to run in Minnesota? In Colorado, I'd be paying Xcel less for gas than electricity to fire that boiler.

I am planning a small office type area in the shop also with a sink, desk, computer, and a small bathroom with stool. I figure this will be heated by the in-floor heat and a small space heater and I am planning for a window airconditioner on the hotter days. Since I have 16ft. sidewalls, I will also have storage above to put stuff on pallets for storage (see new tractor above - also got the loader forks for lifting "stuff" up for storage). GOOD planning!

It's my dream shop so any other comments or suggestions will be appreciated.

Thanks,
DW

High or low bay lighting may be less expensive than you think, and you can get it in a variety of voltage ratings to suit your electrical service. I also doubt it's that much more difficult to install other than the fixtures are bulkier. I suggest you check into it before writing it off completely.

I can see your desire for infloor heat in cold St. Cloud. I have a friend who used to live in Sartell; but just moved back to her childhood home in Sauk Center. Stay warm and have fun in the winter.

 

[DocD]

The Pex tubing will actually be wired/stapled to the insulation (I am not sure of the difference between expanded and extruded - only know it is the 250 high density). My contractor will be responsible for any "major" cracking that will take place in the concrete and he says that the fiber mesh will do just fine as long as I am not parking full dumptrucks on the cement and it will always be protected inside the shed and heated so will not be effected by the elements.

As far as the lighting....is the highbay better than fluorescent??? I guess I don't know alot about different lighting - only know that fluorescent is better than incandescent lighting.

With off-peak electricity it will definately be way cheaper than propane at close to or over $2/gallon.

Thanks,
DW

 

[Danno1]

.

I'd want rebar if it was my floor.......................

.

 

[tommu56]

DocD

I had an electric boiler on my old house it was only 24 x 28 1 1/2 story I took it out after 2 wintes it spun the electric meter so fast I though it would wear out I had one monthly bill back in 1983 of around $450.00
I plumbed in a fuel oil boiler in in 1985 and my whole winter bill was just over $700.00

I wouldent suggest that any one put one in unless you had free electric.

tommu

 

[mjncad]

The Pex tubing will actually be wired/stapled to the insulation (I am not sure of the difference between expanded and extruded - only know it is the 250 high density). My contractor will be responsible for any "major" cracking that will take place in the concrete and he says that the fiber mesh will do just fine as long as I am not parking full dumptrucks on the cement and it will always be protected inside the shed and heated so will not be effected by the elements.

As far as the lighting....is the highbay better than fluorescent??? I guess I don't know alot about different lighting - only know that fluorescent is better than incandescent lighting.

With off-peak electricity it will definately be way cheaper than propane at close to or over $2/gallon.

Thanks,
DW

You'll find high bay lighting in any Home Depot, Wally-World, etc. They are the lights with the round acrylic diffusers on them and are about 24" in diameter. High bay lighting is generally used because one can get a lot of light out of one fixture versus a bunch of fluorescent fixtures high on the ceiling. I'd rather change one bulb than a bunch of tubes, even though fluorescent do last a long time. Remember, light in all forms is subject to the "inverse square law of the propagation of light." In other words, if you move a light source 2 feet further away, the light intensity striking the surface is diminished by 4 times. Lithonia makes lots of lighting of all kinds and I would hope they have their photometric data on their web site.

Forgive me for harping on the concrete concerns I have; but will your contractor move your shop equipment and supplies to a secure covered storage area while he repairs the concrete and PEX tubing? Will he repair/replace any damage done to your property? I don't know what kind of soils you have in Minnesota; but all of my exterior flat-work including the garage is falling apart because the cheap builder didn't put any kind of reinforcement in the concrete. The concrete looks like crap after only 5-years of service and the house is now 8.5 years old.

Expanded polystyrene foam tends to be cheaper, lighter, and flakes more when cut. It is similar to the packing foam most electronics manufactures use in their packaging. Extruded polystyrene is denser; but still is light weight, and if I'm not mistaken, it is a closed cell foam which doesn't wick water the way open cell foams of any kind will. Take a run to Depot and take a look at the difference as they carry both.

Stapling, clipping or wiring the PEX to the foam will have very little resistance to movement when the concrete is poured. Take a piece of wire, stick it in some Styrofoam and see how easy it is to pull out, move, etc.

I'm surprised the electric boiler will be cheaper for you to run, and if it is...go for it.

 

[wedge40]

As I was reading this thread, and believe me I read almost any thread about pole buildings, I have a question. The OP is putting in radiant floor heating and will keep at 55. Just how warm do most people heat their work shop in the winter when they are working out there. I'm not sure but I would think that 60 or 65 would be more than enough.
I would like to hear from the masses what temp they have their shop at in the winter.

Doc - sorry about stealling the thread, but this seemed as good a place as any.

Wedge

 

[keving]

As I was reading this thread, and believe me I read almost any thread about pole buildings, I have a question. The OP is putting in radiant floor heating and will keep at 55. Just how warm do most people heat their work shop in the winter when they are working out there. I'm not sure but I would think that 60 or 65 would be more than enough.
I would like to hear from the masses what temp they have their shop at in the winter.

Doc - sorry about stealling the thread, but this seemed as good a place as any.

Wedge

55-65 for me

 

[mjncad]

DocD:

I've attached an AutoCAD to PDF drawing I quickly did today illustrating how I would do the slab if I were building a pole barn at the moment, and how not to build a slab based on how I've interpreted what your contractor has told you.

Remember, my drawing is nothing more than a suggestion, and is not to be construed as an official engineering drawing, blah, blah, blah, etc.

If you study the Incorrect Slab, having the PEX at the bottom of the slab essentially creates a whole floor of control joints just waiting to crack. Without rebar, or at the very least WWF (Welded Wire Fabric), the slab can go in all sorts of directions from the heat-cold cycles experienced in Minnesota. Plus I have no idea what the soils are like there; but if they are expansive like they are here, your expensive slab will become a cracked nightmare very quickly.

If you look at the Correct Slab, you will see a vapor barrier as the insulation board does not act as a vapor barrier. Ideally, you want a nominal 3" of concrete coverage over all rebar and/or WWF, and PEX tubing. Another reason I'm suggesting a 6" slab is that way the PEX will be far enough below the concrete's surface for protection.

Also, your contractor said he will pour a 4" slab. Is that a nominal 4" slab using 2x4's (1-1/2"x3-1/2") as the form, or is it a true 4" thick? If it's a nominal 4" slab, your floor just got 1/2" thinner and will be even more prone to cracking.

If you decide to add rebar and/or WWF, make sure the contractor uses "chairs" or "dobies" as I've heard some call them to keep the reinforcement in the center of the pour. It will do no good if it sinks to the bottom, and too many contractors rely on the help to pull the reinforcement to approximately center during the pour and before any finishing has occurred.

I'd just hate to see your dream shop turn into an expensive nightmare because the contractor was lazy.

 

[bigtiller]

mjncad

How far apart would you want the rebar spaced?

 

[mjncad]

mjncad

How far apart would you want the rebar spaced?

Good question, and I would think 24" minimum O.C. (on center) would suffice; but I would ask a structural engineer to be certain. If you could go wider, great as that would save on rebar costs.

 

[DocD]

I thought that I would give you an update as to how the building project was going. The process has slowed down now that I have been doing most of the inside finishing myself. I continue to work on the office and bathroom on the heated side (really has been nice with the in-floor heat this winter). As can be seen in the pics below, I also have a 125,000btu furnace in the corner to heat it up to 60 from 50 degrees when I am working in the shop. The tractor, snowmobile trailer, four-wheelers, boat, and mowers are all stored on the cold storage (unheated) side and it seems to be filling up fast. I enjoy everyones suggestions and would love to hear them from the readers. Here are a few updated photos.

Thanks,
DW