Ok whats wrong with this pic

[milkman636]

The white film on the bolts and springs says they have been in water not condensation. Condensation causes rust, but the white film(scaling) generally comes from minerals like calcium, lime, and salt that are more prevalent in water than airborn water vapor. There should still be more of the white residue hidden in other areas of tractor if it's been sumberged in water. There also appears to have been a significant amount of water laying in the bottom of the housing for a while.

About 10 years ago I had the unpleasant experience of having to apologize to a customer in a similar situation. The initial evidence and experience told me he was lying about the cause of his problems, but when I got deeper into the job it turned out to be legitimate equipment failure. I had already basically told the guy that I thought he was lying to me. It was a very bad feeling to lose a customer because I leapt to a premature conclusion and basically called him a liar. I stayed late and got him back up and running before I left for the day, but I never saw him again, and rightfully so.

You are defintely on the right track in trying to give him the benefit of the doubt before shooting him down. I will hopefully never make that same mistake again.

 

[Argosy]

I keep staring at these pics and I don't see what everybody else sees... IMHO, the owner has a very good warranty case..

I'm with you. I see a flywheel and clutch, throw out bearing cross shaft in pretty rough shape. I don't see a plug in the bell housing where it could have been checked, or drained. If there isn't a plug the only way water could get out would be between the mating surface of the bell housing and engine adapter. That should be rusted where the water leaked out and it isn't, it looks like RTV sealant on it which would be real slow to drain, if ever.

The input shafts on the trans, the bell housing itself and the adapter on the engine, the throwout bearing aren't rusted nearly as bad as the flywheel, or worse than would be expected for bare metal.

How hard did it come apart? I don't see any pry marks on the mating surfaces of the bell housing and adapter, if it was underwater I would think it would be almost impossible to get apart. What do the starter shaft and gear look like? Can you get a light to where you can see the flywheel to crank bolts?

It looks to me like the clutch and flywheel were in bad shape before assembly. I think someone in assembly took a chance that most would make it through the warranty period and warranty costs would be less than scrapping them so they were used.

From the pictures there's too much difference between the clutch components, the bell housing and adapter, for me to believe the bell housing was full of water.

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

I'm with you. I see a flywheel and clutch, throw out bearing cross shaft in pretty rough shape. I don't see a plug in the bell housing where it could have been checked, or drained. If there isn't a plug the only way water could get out would be between the mating surface of the bell housing and engine adapter. That should be rusted where the water leaked out and it isn't, it looks like RTV sealant on it which would be real slow to drain, if ever.

The input shafts on the trans, the bell housing itself and the adapter on the engine, the throwout bearing aren't rusted nearly as bad as the flywheel, or worse than would be expected for bare metal.

How hard did it come apart? I don't see any pry marks on the mating surfaces of the bell housing and adapter, if it was underwater I would think it would be almost impossible to get apart. What do the starter shaft and gear look like? Can you get a light to where you can see the flywheel to crank bolts?

It looks to me like the clutch and flywheel were in bad shape before assembly. I think someone in assembly took a chance that most would make it through the warranty period and warranty costs would be less than scrapping them so they were used.

From the pictures there's too much difference between the clutch components, the bell housing and adapter, for me to believe the bell housing was full of water.

Different metals rust at different rates.
bill

 

[brain55]

He would have to be a pretty darn good customer or potential customer if I was going to cover that. I agree warranties are for manufacturer defects or faulty workmanship. Every warranty I have ever read is pretty clear about things like brakes and clutches not being covered. In the same breath I would be curious whether the engine to clutch housing gasket or starter gasket was intact or if the steering box to clutch housing was sealed. If I was in doubt of any of these then I might be able to justify the warranty, unless they were tampered with by the customer. If this guy is trying to get one over on you and threatening to bad mouth you, my guess is that most people he will bad mouth you to, know this guy, and will take what he complains about with a grain of salt. Boy, I sure went back and forth on that. I guess it comes down to a gut feeling call by you. Personally, from the pictures I'm calling it a duck. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't fix it either.

I'm sure that was of no help what so ever.

Brian

 

[KWentling]

Don't most dry clutch tractors have a drain hole in the bottom to drain condensation? I've seen them with cotter pins (jiggle pins) in them to keep dirt from plugging them up. Design flaw? Seems like an awful lot of rust for just condensation, but if there is no way for it to get out, it may be possible. Any chance you could get a look at his pond? Sure looks and sounds suspicious, but unless you can find some definitive evidence that it has been submerged, I would think you have to take his word for it. Maybe check electrical connections, wire loom etc. for water and silt.

Kim

 

[crazyal]

Don't most dry clutch tractors have a drain hole in the bottom to drain condensation? I've seen them with cotter pins (jiggle pins) in them to keep dirt from plugging them up. Design flaw? Seems like an awful lot of rust for just condensation, but if there is no way for it to get out, it may be possible. Any chance you could get a look at his pond? Sure looks and sounds suspicious, but unless you can find some definitive evidence that it has been submerged, I would think you have to take his word for it. Maybe check electrical connections, wire loom etc. for water and silt.

Kim

If it was a design flaw then wouldn't every tractor, or a number of them also be having clutch issues at 120hrs? As i said before I don't think this was sitting in water but just driven through or left for a short time. As to why some things having more rust than others, I would expect things that are hot or turning to dry out very quickly where things the housings that'll cool off quicker will collect the water.

So what is the problem with the tractor? The rust on the cast parts shouldn't be an issue. If I had to guess I would say the pilot bearing wasn't sliding smoothly. Was it just the grease that turned into paste? Was the linkage that's moving hard? Is the pressure plate not working?

Unless you see tracks at the guys house/ farm heading into and out of a pond or a stream I think it'll be hard to find out exactly what happened. If the drain(s) look like they are function as they should, not plugged by something like RTV from when the tractor was built and other tractors you've split don't show this kind of problem then I think he's out of luck.

 

[mjncad]

Lots of water has been in there, and it sounds like the customer is a lying sack-o-crap.

 

[jake98]

Looks like a no-drainage problem to me, that much rust didn't happen in a couple weeks. But I don't know..
Give him his service options and move on. Even if he's not your favorite customer he may buy another one from you down the road.

 

[brokenot]

I keep staring at these pics and I don't see what everybody else sees... IMHO, the owner has a very good warranty case..

The only way he has a warranty case, is if it's still under warranty, and the owner has held up his end of the warranty agreement with repairs and maintenance. The biggest misconception about warranties is that they're automatic and complete on their own. They're not. If an owner wants a company to live up to their end of the warranty bargain, they need to live up to their end as well. Warranty agreements are very specific about what's covered, and what the owner's obligations are...and those obligations include everything from do's and dont's for machine use to maintenance and storage practices, etc. I'd say, (and I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here), roughly 10% of the people I've dealt with over the years are aware of anything more than the standard, "One year" or "two year" limits on warranty coverage. I see equipment in the shop every day that's 3, 4, 5, 6 years old, and the warranty booklet is still sealed in the factory plastic. Yet the owner or user is certain about what their coverage is. When a machine is in for a valid warranty issue, we get asked all the time for a loaner machine, or to cover things like transportation costs or down time. It's really obvious at that point how much they understand about their coverage. Even if this machine is still under warranty....this raises a big red flag for me:

The tractor is 2 and half years old and the customer says he uses it everyday.It has 120 hrs on it

Anyone else have a piece of equipment that's 2 1/2 years old and gets used every day....that has 120 hours on it?

It *almost* sounds as if the hour meter's capacity to track machine usage has been, ummm....altered in case some "warranty consideration" was needed down the road at some point. Either that, or the total hour reading is being kept "artificially" low to aid in resale value later on.

Hate to say it, but I've seen it happen waaaaay more than once. I like to give the benefit of the doubt myself, but folks can make it tough sometimes...

Even if he's not your favorite customer he may buy another one from you down the road.

That's a tough call as well. Anyone that has ever dealt with warranty evaluations and such can tell you that granting coverage for something that shouldn't be covered is seldom a "one-and-done" kind of deal. They'll expect it the next time something comes up too.

 

[jake98]

... granting coverage for something that shouldn't be covered ...

I didn't mean to imply that..

 

[MikeD74T]

Yes it was a new unit when he bought it. Yes I offered him the extended warranty but he declined it. I did check the front dif and it apears to have new fluid in it. He has already stated if we didn't fix it he was going to badmouth us. Ill wait and see what my rep says monday and go from there. If he says fix it then that willl be good although I don't see that happening. I will try to help the customer as much as I can but I wont eat the cost due to his negligence.

Having read 5 pages of this post I don't see how calling a customer a liar on a public forum is 'helping him as much as possible'. If the tractor has a sealed clutch housing it shouldn't matter if it was submerged, it should be dry. As for water intrusion, I've seen tractors that sit outside since manufacture in the 40's or 50's without problems and others stored under cover with accumulations of water in supposedly sealed transmissions etc. Anywhere air goes water also goes. The comment about pressure washing is very valid, sealing against rain or shallow submersion is one thing, sealing against a 2500psi stream is another. Does the manufacturer prohibit using a pressure washer in their warranty? Under what circumstance do you have to "eat the cost" ? Gathering a consensus of third party opinion on TBN doesn't prove fault by the owner. MikeD74T

 

[KWentling]

If it was a design flaw then wouldn't every tractor, or a number of them also be having clutch issues at 120hrs? As i said before I don't think this was sitting in water but just driven through or left for a short time. As to why some things having more rust than others, I would expect things that are hot or turning to dry out very quickly where things the housings that'll cool off quicker will collect the water.

Yes, you would think there would be more cases of this if it were a design problem. Still, if there is no drain there (is there one?), how does condensation get out? Is there a path from above that water can get in? Is this a high humidity area of Texas? As far as getting hot enough to dry it out, I doubt that happens often, especially if it only run about 10 minutes a day which is what 120 hours in 2 1/2 years equates.

I think his only claim for help in this repair is if it were determined that there is a design flaw. The tractor is out of warrantee and no extended warrantee taken out.

Kim

 

[tlbuser]

Its a MF1532. There are shipped from Japan but as soon as they reach port and are unload Massey goes threw them and finishes assembling them. When I receive them I have my guys go over with a fine tooth comb which involves pulling the plug on the bell housing and checking for water.

Something fishy here. You know from experience to pull the plug and check for water, clearly indicating a known problem area. A customer with a previous accumulation of water in that known problem area is having issues and he is the one that is guilty

While 2.5 years of ownership works out to something like 7.6 minutes a day, that also is not impossible. My uncle used his instead of a power wheelchair to get the mail everyday.

 

[MarkV]

The tractor is out of warrantee and no extended warrantee taken out.

That seems like the end of the story to me regardless of what caused the rust. This is a case of "I want a new clutch for free".

MarkV

 

[Big Wave D]

This thread is better than watching 48 Hours Mystery on CBS.

Just the time I've/you've decided the person is 'guilty as sin', the TV show keeps going and you start to waiver and think, "... maybe they aren't guilty?" Same for me here about this topic.

It seems like this 'court' of public opinion is leaning towards guilt, guy submerged tractor somehow; however, I think some people have laid out some very good counter points as to how it's possible this is a result of other cause(s).

Since I have nothing at stake in this other than curiosity, it will be interesting to see how this eventually works out.

One fact we know for sure, the gentleman declined the extended warranty. There are signed papers to prove that. Because of this fact, I don't see that he has much to hang his hat on for getting this repaired on some else's nickle.

Now, the waters really begin to get murky, if he is claiming that this was a manufacturing or assembly defect and that due to it's 'unseeable' nature, not something that could be easily known - except that when the symptoms finally made known the original defect. Then maybe, I can see MF stepping up and saying, "okay, this is a special exception", and they'll cover this, even though it's outside of the normal warranty period.

As George Costanza's father said on an Episode of Seinfeld, "Million to one shot doc....million to one." and maybe it is.

 

[jake98]

I'm trying to think of the last time I drained my bell housing.. Oh, that's right, it was last Neburary.. Guess it's time to check.

 

[Argosy]

Different metals rust at different rates.
bill

I don't disagree. But the engine adapter and bell housing should be similar metal. The rust on the flywheel looks like it is worse on one side than the other, roughly 1/3 to 1/2 was wetter than the rest. If it was assembled, submerged and partially filled with water there should be a level of more severe rust on both the bell housing and adapter, there isn't.

I still don't see any drain in the bell housing. I see RTV, but no rust on the mating surfaces of the bell housing and adapter. If you're going to deny service because the customer submerged the tractor deep enough and long enough for water to fill the bell housing roughly 1/3 of the way you better also have an explanation where the water went.

 

[jlsmith]

wow alot of great responses here. First i would like to say i never called the customer a liar. I just dont believe he is being totaly upfront with me. Yes there is a drain plug in the bell housing and the customer was told to check two to three times a year. We check it when it gets here to just make shure there is no leaks of hyd fluid or any water due from being shipped over seas. Yes it is out of warranty and the customer want me to eat the cost of repairs if MF declines the warranty issue. The customer has taken poorly care of this until. He had the Steering colume torn apart and the throtal cable was completly gone, and the tach cable was loose at the housing. While this is not a regular customer ( ive seen him 4 times in 2.5 yrs and that is the only piece if equipment he has bought from me) but hes still a customer and i do try to please all customers. Good points pointed out on here about going and looking at his place. I do know he has a large creek he said he had to cross to get to the back of his place, i dont know how deep that is but i might take a trip to see and visit face to face. I have asked him to come to the shop and look at the clutch which was rusted together and had to chiseled off. The reason the had us bring it in is becused the clutch wouldnt ingauge, and in my opinion thats not going to happen over night. In my thought this tractor had to have been setting for a while, and if that is the case the customer should have used the clutch pedal disengauge latch. Hopefully MF will do a "good will warranty" and make the customer happy but if not the customer will have to pay to get the clutch fixed, I will discount some of the labor if this happens.

 

[blueriver]

. Hopefully MF will do a "good will warranty" and make the customer happy but if not the customer will have to pay to get the clutch fixed, I will discount some of the labor if this happens.

I don't believe this should be done ... no matter how hard you try this type of customer will bad mouth you no matter what.

Tell him straight up and to his face, it is out of warranty. There is no extended Warranty. It will cost X amount to fix. When do you want us to start?

If he bulks ... charge him for the already done work and advise him to take it back home.

 

[jlsmith]

I did go back and look the tractor over ths morning. There is no way to know what happened. There is mud in some spots that is questionable but no way to say that it wasnt just drivin threw a real muddy spot and not stuck. My MF rep will be here monday morning and ill let him decied where to go from here. I did talk to MF and they are not aware of any other tractor having this problem. I went one step further and called several of the MF dealers that i deal with and they also have not seen this happen. (not to say that it couldnt and didnt this time) I thank all of you for your input. Thats why i like this site one might be looking at a problem one way and after posting and listening to what others have to say they might see another possibilty. As for the drain plug in the bell housing there is one and it appears not to have been check for along time (customer says he checks it quite often) it was full of rust and a muck. I have sold several of these units and have not had any problems with them so far. Hopefully we will get the situation resolved peacefully and the customer will end up happy.