Newbe with several questions

Code54 · Aug 24, 2005

I just recently purchased 8 acres of land and a home and know I need a compact tractor to keep everything looking good. I have about 2 to 2.5 acres to mow and a small gravel driveway. The road to the house is also gravel and it is not state maint. So I want to be able to help the neighbors with that. My budget is maxed at 15K for the Tractor, Front End Loader and a mid mount mower (maybe 60" I guess). In the future I want to be able to dig the foundation for an addition for the house (small - about 25 wide X only 30'long due to the slope of the hill), be able to move gravel all around for the driveway and move dirt to level the yard. I also want to be able to clear some paths in the woods for ATV trails (maybe with a 4' brush hog and scrape the junk with the FEL).
I had been looking at the Mahindra 2015HST and the J.D.2210. The Deere looks and seems a bit small compared to the Mahindra but wondered what else is out there that I should be looking at for under 15K. I live in West Virginia near Charleston and I don't have many dealers nearby so I pretty much have to drive to buy any brand so no one is favored due to location. Also what kind of "markup" is on a tractor and how do I know what I can expect to pay. I am buying the book on the site tonight but was hoping to gain even more opinions and ideas. Thanks and sorry for all the questions, this is all new to me!
Scott

bearhawk · Aug 24, 2005

If there has been one thing that I have learned while shopping for my own tractor, is the dealer is more important than the actual tractor.

It sounds to me like you are looking a 20 - 30 hp CUT. The JD 2210 is actually a Sub - CUT (Subcompact Utility Tractor) and that is fine. If that is what you want. But when I looked at the BX Kubota, it looked like a lawn tractor on steroids. I wanted a TRACTOR.

I purchased a Kioti CK20 HST and have been very happy with it so far.

hawk

Code54 · Aug 25, 2005

I with you on that, I just can not get into that "lawn tractor on steroids" look for some reason. I want something with a little weight and some size so I can do other tasks. If you don't mind me asking what did the Kioti CK20 HST run ya? I think we have a dealer over the line in Ohio and I can make that trek fairly easily. How are they for getting parts? I really don't know ANYTHING about the make.
Thanks!

RalphVa · Aug 25, 2005

A JD 4010 can be bought within your budget. Don't think it'll dig your foundation though. I'd rent a bobcat on treads for that. The 4010 has more ground clearance than the 2210 yet is no higher with non-foldable ROPS than the 2210. I park mine going under a regular overhead garage door or into the double doors to the basement of my carriage house.

Ralph

Soundguy · Aug 25, 2005

I'g guess 20-30 hp. 30 hp gives you more 'play' room in hp.. course.. i imaging getting a 30hp unit with MMM, and fel, and rotary mower, and box blade is going to be hard to find inthe big 3 brands.. probably also hard onthe 2nd brands as well.

Look in the 24 hp region.

Mowers can be had as cheaply as 500$ or so especially if you are looking in the light/medium duty area. Box blades inthe 250$ and up region.. same for rear scoops if you needed one.. though box blade and fel pretty much reduce the need for a scoop.

Other items you may want down the line are an angle blade.. though you certiantly can maintain a road with a box blade vfairly decently. And a chain harrow.. works good to smooth and re-distribute material on road/driveway.

Lots of people love HST trannies with loader work.. same with 4wd. You will need to decide whether you need those options.. lo/no hills and wetlands might let you avoid 4wd... choice of trannies is whatever you are comfortable with.

Look at Nh's tc 21/24/26 units.

I'm not sure if you are going for new or used.. but check your dealers.. lots of times low hour used untis are a deal, and get you more tractor or implements with a few dents / scratches.. etc.

Soundguy

BamaRob · Aug 25, 2005

I can only speak of what I am familiar. I'm a new owner of a Mahindra 2615 4WD (gear), and it sounds like it would fit the bill nicely for what you're needing. If you added FEL, MMM, and HST, you'd probably be pushing up against or a little over your $15K budget. I got the gear model with FEL for right at $14K. I still need to buy 3PH implements, but I've been very productive with the FEL so far.

It's definitely a tractor and not a riding mower on steroids! The 2015 HST is probably a capable unit also. I looked at them when I bought my 2615. I could have probably gotten by with the 2015, but the 2615 was within my budget and I like having the extra horses if needed.

Later,

BR

bearhawk · Aug 25, 2005

Price varies a lot between locations.

My CK20 HST with loader and 6' York Rake was 14K, but with that I will also get my first 50 hr service included.

bearhawk

Code54 · Aug 25, 2005

The CK20 does look nice for the price also. Here is a question - is there a reason why I should by a new MMM over a used one - are they standard or does it have to be made for 1 exact tractor? As for box blades or blades I figure used is fine, I am not going to use it all they much.
As for the foundation thing am i asking too much from a compact tractor. The hill is pretty sloped so there really is only 1/2 A foundation to dig out due to the fact i would be digging into the hillside (was also thinking this maybe a reason to get a Backhoe

or at least tell Kim that ).
Is there also any advto rear mound finish mowers? What is a flail mower - is it a bushhog? Sorry for all the questions I know I have a TON to learn!!
Thanks

bearhawk · Aug 25, 2005

I think the MMM are specific to the tractor. That's why the Rear Finish Mower is cheaper and more common. You can use most any RFM as long as you have the PTO power required.

My new 5' Box Blade was only $460, so make sure you don't pay too much for a junker. This is a great attachment, you'll need one.

I think a Tooth bar is needed for any serious FEL work. I have a hard rocky soil and it is slow digging. I need to get a tooth bar next.

Learning is half the fun.

kIOTICK30 · Aug 26, 2005

I do think the Ck20 can dig that. It will take time, but it can do it. I would also consider a rear mower not a MMM on the CK20hst.

Bob_Skurka · Aug 26, 2005

MMM are tractor specific, with some very very rare exceptions (usually limited to old tractractors) you cannot buy an aftermarket MMM and used one are next to impossible to find except on popular tractors. With tractors like the CK20 or the more popular Mahindra 2015, which have very low sales nationally, finding a used MMM would likely be an impossible quest. If you were to find a more popular tractor like a small Kubota, Deere or New Holland you could find a used MMM, but even then, the search would be a tough one as they rarely are sold separately.

As for Box Blades, you can typically find used box blades. Make sure they are square and not bent. A bent, or sprung, box blade is absolutely worthless, or at least not worth any more than the price paid for recycled steel. You can find good used box blades. The heavier the better. For a 20/21hp tractor you should look at a 48" box blade. Make sure the scarifiers are adjustable without needing tools and make sure none are missing. You may want to look here for some information: Box Blade Photo Comparison

Digging a foundation properly & efficiently requires a backhoe. You will find digging with a FEL to be difficult. FELs are simply not made to dig. Going into the side of a hill and digging a 25' by 30' foundation will be a verly long hard task with a tractor. For under $200 you could rent a mini-excavator and dig that out in one afternoon.

As for a Flail Mower, that is a rough cut mower that uses sharpened chain that spin around a rotating tube to cut grass. They will cut grass and brush. They do not provide a great finished cut and they are a high maintanence and expensive implement. They are good for some applications but I can't see you using one. A Flail Mower is NOT a Rotary Cutter/Bush Hog. Both are used for similar cutting but they work totally differently. Neither will give your lawn a finished cut.

As for a RFM, they cost less than MMM but for mowing a small lawn I can see no advantage other than cost. They do come off a bit easier than a MMM but I think they are more difficult in a yard type enviornment where you have flower beds and trees to mow around. I've used 2 different RFMs, the good brands are very good, the lower priced brands (IMHO) are junk. You can find RFMs used so that may be a good option, but be careful that you carefully inspect the oil in the gearbox for water, the spindles, belts, etc. I like RFMs for mowing open areas, they are also nice to back down along creek banks and under thorn trees, but for yard style mowing I'll take a MMM over a RFM every time because in my experience they get the job done faster. For most work, they can be left on the tractor, but if you get into heavy FEL work, it is best to remove them. Others prefer RFMs, there is probalby no correct answer, just a matter of preference.

Be careful about buying across state lines (you mentioned Ohio) in hopes of saving sales tax. You would still be liable for the sales tax in your home state. Many dealers will tell you that you can buy TAX FREE if they ship the tractor into your state. That is a 1/2 truth, you don't have to pay THEIR state tax, but you still owe YOUR state tax. If you finance the tractor it is very likely that you'd be getting an unexpected tax bill about a year or two after you take delivery of your tractor. If you don't finance, then you might get lucky. But in any case you'd be breaking the law. DISCLAIMER: I am not an accountant, financial planner or tax planner, however am regularly called as an expert witness in the midwest states to tesitfy on excise taxes, cross border tax evasion and similar topics. I've testified in several states on behalf of various organizations, and at the request of legistators. I've also been deposed as an expert witness in federal court trials for multinational corporations on related topics.

Code54 · Aug 26, 2005

Wow, thanks for all the great info! The Flail mower does not sound useful, a 48"brush hog would be more than enought. My main idea of looking in Oh (maybe even PA when I am up there) was about price. I am not really concerned about paying the sales tax, that is fine and plan on paying it no matter where I buy it but I do thank you for bringing that up, that is a VERY good point.
It does sound like renting something to dig the foundation would be a better idea and not even to $$.
I am now also looking at the Kubota B7510 with and FEL/ 60" MMM (you sold me on spending the extra so it is easier to cut with). Do you all think it is possible to get this out the door (with 6% tax) for around 15K and is this a good machine? From what I read it sounds like a nice tractor for a small piece of ground. I was also thinking I may do well with a small blade for the rear to move some snow around.
thanks again!

Bob_Skurka · Aug 26, 2005

I am now also looking at the Kubota B7510 with and FEL/ 60" MMM 

You asked if this is a good tractor. Yes. And you also looked at the Mahindra and that is also a good tractor. The question is what is more suitable for what you want to do? It seems like you eliminated the JD2210, which is a different/smaller tractor class so I won't address that.

The Mahindra 2015 is a small very heavy tractor.
The Kubtoa B7510 is a small very light tractor.

Heavy tractors are good for some things. Light tractors are good for different things. Any tractor will do most any reasonable task, but some do some better than others.

Just MY opinion, but here are some things you can do with a tractor and the OPTIMUM weight & transmission for each task:

Mow the lawn = Light tractor + HST transmission
Brush cut a field = weight neutral + HST transmission
Till a garden = Light tractor + HST transmission
Post Hole Digger = weight neutral, transmission neutral
Box Blade = Heavy tractor + Gear
Grader Blade = Heavy tractor + Gear
Landscape Rake = weight neutral favoring light, transmission depends on task
Front Loader Work = weight neutral + HST
Snow Blower = weight neutral + HST
One thing to remember is you can always add weights or ballast to a light tractor but you can't remove weight from a heavy one.

Of course you can mow with a heavy tractor and box blade with a light tractor. I generally would say that you should rank your tasks to determine what TYPE of tractor is best for your TASKS. If you have mostly mowing and minimal box blade work, I would favor a light tractor so I didn't rut my yard. If I had a 1/2 mile gravel drive that was badly rutted and lived in the woods with a small yard, I'd pick a heavy tractor and get a push mower to mow around the house.

I don't really know what your needs/tasks are, so you will need to decide what is the best fit for you.

Don't get hung up on all the specs of one brand versus the next unless you absolutely need a specific capacity for a regular job. But if you want really worry about it, you would need to understand that Kubota and Mahindra post their specs differently. Kubota usually gives its capacities at the 'bucket center' while Mahindra usually gives their specs at the pivot point for the Front End Loaders. For the 3pt hitch, Kubota usually gives their specs at 24" behind the ball eyes, Mahindra usually gives their specs at the ball eyes. You will need to take out your calculator to equalize the specs if they are not measured at the same points. See this thread for more information, it starts out on one topic but eventually gets into a great discussion about how to compare specs on tractors: Bucket size VS bucket capacity

albmn10 · Aug 26, 2005

Hello code, any of the three brands you are looking at would suit you well.. Go test drive each , make sure the dealers answer all questions to your satisfaction, and when you figure out which brands you want more specific information about ,go to their perspective chat rooms and ask those who own the model you are looking at and you will get alot of very friendly advice to help you in your search. good luck...

frank_f15 · Aug 26, 2005

well after reading BOB'S A LAST POST i can add nothing more only to ReRead his ans. he as usual gave excellent advice.

Code54 · Aug 26, 2005

Thank you to everyone once again. The reason the Kubota is of interest is it is light and there are several local dealers within 35 miles or so. I like having the choice and I figure if one dealer does not have a part I need or want maybe the other would. I don't think I will be using a box blade all that much, maybe here and there to tear up the high spots in the yard and start to level it out and to clean up the driveway (it is in very good shape and I bet I really could clean it up with my ATV and a drag - it is a LIGHT duty job). I figure I will use the mower the most, followed by the FEL, and maybe a little brush hogging (I could do it with a 36" for a little I think I will need - it will mainly be to open up some ATV paths and cut around the little pond). I even looked at the BX23 (Kubota) but it just seems so darn small and looks like a BH would really tax it (I do love that backhoe however). Anyone have a guess at what i would have to pay to get one for a 7510 - I am thinking a LOT.
Anyway - thank you to everyone once again

LBrown59 · Aug 26, 2005

1*I even looked at the BX23 (Kubota) but it just seems so darn small and looks like a BH would really tax it (I do love that backhoe however).
2* Anyone have a guess at what I would have to pay to get one for a 7510 - I am thinking a LOT. 
Code54
--------------------
 1* don't let that fool you. Looks can be deceiving. The bh don't tax mine.
There are a lot of BX23 owners on here.
They're going by experience you're going by looks. Who do you think knows the BX23 best?
2*A b7510 with a BH will be a bunch more than the BX23.
If I was going bigger then a BX 23 I would skip the 7510 and move on up to a b7610 or b 2410 

As far as I'm concerned the 7510 is to little more than a bx and to much less than the 7610.

DrRod · Aug 29, 2005

Greetings,

There's been a lot of good info here but one point that's been missed (in my humble opinion) is that ...

Once a MMM is on your tractor, its a pretty big job to take it off -- so they tend to stay on all the time. And they tend to be in the way when you're doing some other tasks. If you're clearing some rough ground or working around rocks or stumps, they have a way of scraping or snagging things on the ground.

One other comment on flail mowers. They do take more horsepower and do take more maintenance (and I never found a dealer who stocked one). But they offer a level of safety over rotary mowers. Everything that comes out of them is thrown straight to the ground -- nothing flies out of them. That's why you see them used along roadsides and in public parks. I have one for my ATV and it actually does a really nice job on the lawn. It doesn't use the PTO -- has its own engine -- and is smaller and simpler to maintain than a tractor-type / PTO unit.

Thanks,

Rod

Code54 · Aug 29, 2005

I do think the BX 23 is a nice tractor and after driving one I was impressed but the small tires and low G.C. seems like it would be a large issue for me. We have a lot of wood property and I know the tractor is headed to the woods for some work. I also think the bucket maybe a weak for lifting logs and such. It seems the 7510 or 7610 with the tires filled and the larger loader may make a safer and stonger package for my uses. I would like to add a small grapple in the future and figure the 75's would handle that also a bit better. Dont get me the BX is nice and I love the BH but it does not appear to have all the qualities I desire. Thanks again for the info and help. The is and several other topics has help make the decessions a LOT easier!

LBrown59 · Aug 30, 2005

It seems the 7510 or 7610 with the tires filled and the larger loader may make a safer and stronger package for my uses.

============== 
If I were passing over the BX23 I would skip over the B7510 and go for the B 7610 or B 2410.
When I was shopping for a tractor I wanted the B2410 and was getting quotes on it.
Didn't know there was a BX23 until I saw it on the dealers lot when I went in to get a quote on a B 2410 so I got prices on both the BX23 and the B 2410.
I debated for some time over which one I wanted finally deciding on the BX23 - No regrets on that decision, but I wouldn't mind owning a b 2410 too.
Can't help but wonder what the B 24110 would be like to own.
Had I bought the B2410 I'd probably be wondering what the BX23 would be like to own.
I'd love to get a B7610 or B 2410 on my place and operate it for a day or 2.