"new" idea on trenching device

[tatra805]

Here is the situation: i want to put drainage around and in our horse paddock. Need to make about 600ft of trench about 1.5ft deep, 1ft wide.

Received and estimate of 2000$ from a mini-backhoe operator to do the job.

So, i've got a 2000$ motivation to do it myself.


Reading through the trencher / spade threads i did see a couple of possible solutions but there is 1 problem:

300ft needs to be dug as close as possible to the fencing (borderline of our property), so i mean inches from, not feet.

I had an idea last night about a trencher, give me your thoughts on it:


Imagine a 1ft tube, 4ft long positioned next to the tractor (longitudinal) swivel mounted to an attachement for the 3pt.

By swiveling the tube (say a 30 degrees angle max) and lowering the 3pt the edge of the tube will bite into the ground and scrape/cut a layer of ground which will be pushed up the tube and fall out of the back of the tube. There a plate is mounted to re-direct the ground to the side of the trench.

By making multiple passes you could make a trench. Say you take of 3 inches at a time. (how much HP for a 15" cutting edge??)

Attached a drawing of what i try to explain above.

 

[chickenman]

as someone that has built implements to move and remove dirt, what your proposing wont work

the dirt will just jam up a few inches from the opening and act as a plug pushing the dirt ahead of it

you'll need some sort of screw or conveyor to move the dirt up the incline to have any chance of it working

from someone that's been there

after posting this i had an idea, instead of a tube or or chute maybe just a reinforced flat ramp with no sides with a movable deflector plate that could be set at ground level to move the dirt to the side, even with this you may have to make several passes going deeper each time

you may have to make the trench as wide as it is deep maybe wider

 

[tatra805]

Chickenman,

i follow you, the tube comes from the fact that making a 'channel' just takes a lot more work and skills to have it as strong and stable as needed.

So, my lazy side came up with a tube. Strong, stable and comes as 1 piece.

Avoiding jamming is going to be the biggest challenge. An auger i can add (i have a Stihl ground drill which i could mount into the tube as aid.

good to see you approve the cutting edge/ multiple passes idea.

Btw, to make things worse, we have heavy clay ground here....

 

[chickenman]

the clay is a big downer thats what i have

it clogs and clumps just by looking at it

without moving parts i still thing a simple ramp affair is your best bet as the ramp would do the lifting while the sides of the trench would keep the dirt stationary with the trench as the ramp lifted

 

[Redneck in training]

Here is the situation: i want to put drainage around and in our horse paddock. Need to make about 600ft of trench about 1.5ft deep, 1ft wide.

Received and estimate of 2000$ from a mini-backhoe operator to do the job.

So, i've got a 2000$ motivation to do it myself.


Reading through the trencher / spade threads i did see a couple of possible solutions but there is 1 problem:

300ft needs to be dug as close as possible to the fencing (borderline of our property), so i mean inches from, not feet.

I had an idea last night about a trencher, give me your thoughts on it:


Imagine a 1ft tube, 4ft long positioned next to the tractor (longitudinal) swivel mounted to an attachement for the 3pt.

By swiveling the tube (say a 30 degrees angle max) and lowering the 3pt the edge of the tube will bite into the ground and scrape/cut a layer of ground which will be pushed up the tube and fall out of the back of the tube. There a plate is mounted to re-direct the ground to the side of the trench.

By making multiple passes you could make a trench. Say you take of 3 inches at a time. (how much HP for a 15" cutting edge??)

Attached a drawing of what i try to explain above.

I have a similar project. I need to increase the watershed of my pond so I intend trenching about 2000 ft of trench across slopes on both sides of the pond. My plan is to use and auger gearbox turned on a side with a bucket wheel instead of the auger. May be I will have to use a vbelt nad pulleys between the output shaft of the auger gearbox and the bucket wheel to lower the rpm, get more torque and protect the PTO when the buckets hit some hard object. I don't have any specicifc desig at this point just an idea.

 

[tommu56]

What about a dich witch trencher most are offset to one side

tom

 

[tatra805]

did i mention rocks ??

and did i mention water level 2.5 inches below surface

And did i mention that augers and backhoes dont work in summer when this clay and rock mix become concrete hard?

yep


But the trenches need to be made, so no wining but creative thinking.

Clay slices, like butter.
The trench will fill immediately with water, so that should help make it less sticking to the tube/tray/implement.

A bit off topic but as illustration:

Digging is very problematic in our region and mostly ends up in too big machines and trenches for the application just because small machinery does not manage it. Nobody wants to give fix quotes as bad spots are common and easily double working hours.

I had 3 small backhoes / mini-cranes going back home with a FAILED stamp on them when digging the foundations for our garage. Finally a big JCB dug them and trippled the concrete amount. Bomb proof foundation but $$$$ again.

We still have manual diggers for water wells and septics around. They come with their caravan and dig for a month or more by hand. Saw them doing it: diameter of 6ft: Every day between 1 and 2 feet max, 3 people a couple of shovels and pick-axes. The benefit is a hole that is made to measure, with mechanical digging you mostly end up with something half size too big and you need to fill the gap with stabilizing materials which you have to buy. Using the clay would only give a lot of air pockets and unstable area.

I put my fences 3 years ago and still the auger drilled holes do not enclose the posts. pouring concrete in the holes is the only way to make it a tight fit. (smaller holes and knocking does not work with wooden posts, you just split the head of the posts)

So i want to tryu alternative ways of digging as all the classic ones (backhoe, auger, plow) are not woring here in the size of a small tractor implement.

 

[tatra805]

A ditch-witch looks as 1 massive block of clay within half an hour of operating.

No joking, i saw one standing as clay was pushed into every hole and gap leaving it blocked and dead.

Power washer does no good to that, owner had to wait for the clay to dry and then knock and scrape all clay off. Has sold it afterwards.

 

[Oldmax]

Why not just use a rear blade , one that will slide to the side , angle & tilt it to suit you . mine works good on back of my tractor, I used one on 1715 FWD small tractor just 27 HP last fall to make ditch for drain pipe "about 50' ". It didn't take very long just a few passes. It will supprize you what a FWD tractor will pull .

 

[ampsucker]

couple of other ideas:

pto tiller backed up to the fence when the clay is between soggy wet and rock hard dry might get you 7-8 inches of depth. back up, dig down with the tiller, dirt moves to the front or rear dependind on tiller rotation. reposition, do it again.

offset subsoiler or middle buster (side buster?) could get you the depth you need it one or two passes, then just have to clear the loose spoils. could use the FEL for that.

if the clay you have is like ours and it does "slice" easily. you might be able to position the FEL bucket and "dive" down into it with the right angles and get a pretty good depth. rocks will inhibit this process though so that is where a subsoiler could help by breaking things up first.

rent the back hoe and do it yourself.

do it by hand with a hired team of workers as mentioned above. i'm getting ready to build a small flower bed. decided to pour a footer. to save cement, i'm digging by hand so my trench is only a spade's width i have to fill with cement instead of a backhoe bucket's width. yes, it's only 40 linera or feet or so - not nearly what you have to accomplish. but, a good time or laborers could probably get you a couple of hundred feet a day in good soil conditions just with shovels. might only cost you half of what your first bid was.

any combination of the above....

key to working with clay is it either needs to be in the sweets spot of workability (moist so not rock hard but not so sticky it clumps to everything. or so completely wet that it is runny like wet cement but then your equipment will be stuck all the time unless tracked). this is entirely dependent on the weather, season, local environmental conditions. you have to have your game plan ready to go when the ground is right, then go for it and don't stop till you have accomplished what you need to do. one rain storm can stop the whole project in its tracks for weeks.


amp

 

[Redneck in training]

did i mention rocks ??

and did i mention water level 2.5 inches below surface

And did i mention that augers and backhoes dont work in summer when this clay and rock mix become concrete hard?

yep


But the trenches need to be made, so no wining but creative thinking.

Clay slices, like butter.
The trench will fill immediately with water, so that should help make it less sticking to the tube/tray/implement.

A bit off topic but as illustration:

Digging is very problematic in our region and mostly ends up in too big machines and trenches for the application just because small machinery does not manage it. Nobody wants to give fix quotes as bad spots are common and easily double working hours.

I had 3 small backhoes / mini-cranes going back home with a FAILED stamp on them when digging the foundations for our garage. Finally a big JCB dug them and trippled the concrete amount. Bomb proof foundation but $$$$ again.

We still have manual diggers for water wells and septics around. They come with their caravan and dig for a month or more by hand. Saw them doing it: diameter of 6ft: Every day between 1 and 2 feet max, 3 people a couple of shovels and pick-axes. The benefit is a hole that is made to measure, with mechanical digging you mostly end up with something half size too big and you need to fill the gap with stabilizing materials which you have to buy. Using the clay would only give a lot of air pockets and unstable area.

I put my fences 3 years ago and still the auger drilled holes do not enclose the posts. pouring concrete in the holes is the only way to make it a tight fit. (smaller holes and knocking does not work with wooden posts, you just split the head of the posts)

So i want to tryu alternative ways of digging as all the classic ones (backhoe, auger, plow) are not woring here in the size of a small tractor implement.

In order preventing sticking of the clay to the tube, cut a ring out of the tube several cm long and then weld it back but at sharper digging angle to the tube. Weld it such a way that the bottom back of the ring will be somewhat inside the tube. The clay will be hard pressed against the cutting ring but then it will just fall over its back edge to the tube. My thinking is that if sufficiently wet it could be easier pushed up and out by advancing material from the front of the tube. My soil condition is very similar to yours. We have about 2" of top soil with sticky clay under it. But our water table is very deep so the clay is wet only after sustained rain. Let as know what was the final sucessfull solution.
By the way my mother was born not too far from your place in Sirk-Zeleznik and grew up in Plavecky Ctvrtok. I still have relatives in Malacky.

 

[mwb]

I built a "simple" trencher like your pic and it did not work worth a **** and that was in good soil. If you are going to try the tube or channel you will need to add a long tooth to the front to pull the trencher down (no down pressure on 3pt); otherwise it will just plug up and skid allong the surface. Similar to a plow share.

Can you pull a single or double furrow plow through it?

I think the ditch witch type would be the best. If your soil is that bad then maybe it would be easier to move?

 

[CurlyDave]

Take a look at this thread http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/99242-boxblade-road-gutter-maintenance.html

I think you can do this with a box blade if you tilt it properly.

 

[BrentD]

Since you're digging in an area that is already going to have water in it anyway, could you possibly add some sort of high-pressure water jet inside the bottom of the tube to force the clay out the back?

 

[J_J]

tatra805

If you could buy or build these, they should work for you, if you have a fel, or something with forks,

You could pull a sub soiler through the ares and dig out the loose dirt/clay, or whatever.

That rock trencher in the last picture, should be able to cut the trench, then you have to clean it out.

 

[Eagleview]

A rotary drain cutter is what you need , easy to build and effective . A round heavy disc with rotary hoe blades driven off the PTO , i would make it swinging so you can set whatever offset you like . (left click on expanded image so you can read it)

 

[tatra805]

some nice ideas offered here...
Now i am afraid i have to sound stubborn but i hope i can explain why,


Spade type implements mounted on the fel can work but will not as i am too close to the fence. If i dont have enough offset i need to go ful depth in 1 pass. Knowing the clay i am very afraid (certain) that a spade offset outside the bucket will last only a couple of meters before torsion will kill it.


Rotary type of diggers might work a bit in summer on the dry parts. In my case the ground stays wet all year round. Attempting anything rotative just sticks the whole thing together. Believe me i tried with a walk behind rotovator and the only result was a rotating clay drum within a couple of feet.

Types of sub-soilers or knives/coulters just leave a cut line in the ground. The only disruption that happens is when it catches a rock an pushes it to the surface but if not you get a line in the ground.

Plowing in our region is only done on those fields that have a good top soil. Most of the fields are only rotovated or subsoiled at 5'' level. I come from belgium, google for deep plowing movies and you will see i am used to some other plowing habits but here it is simply not possible. 70HP tractors are pulling 1 knive plows, nothing more is possible and everybody avoids it as a 9ft stretch is what you can plow before the clay sticks and pushes the plow up.

So why am i naive to think a tube would work? no idea, didnt see anybody try it here and i liked the slicing principle.

So where are you clay-diggers. How do harvest your clay and which toold do you use ?

 

[Eagleview]

A mud bucket on an mini excavator is your only option then .

 

[ccdck20hst]

With conditions as difficult as you have described using a backhoe or trencher sounds like it will not work from what you have stated. How about using a jackhammer with a large wide chisel on it to define the lines of the trench on either side and loosen up the rocks and clay for removal by hand? You could try removing small blocks of clay cutting perpendicular to the edges as you go - sure it will take time but what is the laternative? Perhaps starting on the low end will allow any water to drain as you go. Just a thought for this difficult situation.

 

[EddieWalker]

Here is the situation: i want to put drainage around and in our horse paddock. Need to make about 600ft of trench about 1.5ft deep, 1ft wide.

Received and estimate of 2000$ from a mini-backhoe operator to do the job.

$2,000 sounds pretty steep for a one day project. At 600 feet and only 1.5 ft deep by 1 foot wide, it's not even very much dirt.

I'd call some other contractors. Both mini excavators and backhoe operators. At the high end, $100 an hour, it should still be under $800, and probably closer to $500. I'd be very suprised if a half competent operator couldn't do 100 feet an hour easily.

If you cannot find anybody, what does it cost to rent a mini ex for the weekend?

By the time you build your contraption, fine tune it, adjust it, rebuild it and all that, you'll be ahead in time and money hiring it out. It's very hard to buy or build a special tool or implement for what you can hire or rent it for.

Eddie