Need Water Well Advice, Please

[Gadgetnut]

Hello, everyone. Not having had a lot of private water well experience in the past, I would appreciate receiving your opinions regarding my next move to try to get a potable water supply. My water well gave out in August of last year and I've been hauling water ever since. Last October we sited a new well as close as we could to my neighbor's good well (at 270 feet deep) and the well driller drilled a 600 foot deep dry hole. The driller went through different soils until about 300 feet, where the casing stops, when he hit rock, and he kept drilling through 300 feet of rock, no water. He stopped at 600 feet and capped that well as a dry hole. He came back a week later to see if any water was in the hole and at the end of his 500 foot long probe there was no water, though the hole in the rock extends another hundred feet deeper than his probe. We dropped a pebble and I wasn't sure, but it sounded like there may have been a splash at the bottom. We have not looked at that well again since October 2006.

Regarding this dry hole, people have mentioned hydro-frac... and prices of $7,000 or so-- with no guarantees of course, and I'm told you need to have some water in the hole before that will work.

A different well driller also mentioned a "gamma ray" examination of that dry hole, which could definitiviely determine if the driller missed any water just outside the casing. I don't know how much that would cost.

We are considering drilling a new well. We hired a water douser and after an hour of walking around he identified a confluence of two underwater streams. His identified location is at somewhat of a low spot on our property, compared to the rising landscape around it.

My questions are: has anyone had any experience with hydro-frac? I'm hoping to have a good quantity and quality of supply-- I hate to invest more money in this hole, if it is anticapted to return only a small quantity of water. If I abadone that old well and proceed with drilling a new well, in addition to hiring a douser, any other recommendation for locating the new well site? An engineer friend recommended a specialty hydro-geology report... this would be produced by engineers 75 miles away. I think they look at well logs and geology maps and make an educated guess. Their report was offered to me at about $3,500 and of course offers no guarantee. I asked the well driller if he has ever found those hydro-geology reports useful or accurate, and he says not.

Between purchasing a water treatment system for a well that went dry, then drilling a dry hole, I've already invested a lot and still don't have any water. Any suggestions? Thanks. More background info about my situation in next post.

 

[Gadgetnut]

Additional Background: 35 acre parcel, kind of shaped like a bowl, with a seven acre lake in the center. On the property are now four abandoned water wells ranging from 40 to 600 feet deep. Well #1.) The first well was abandoned perhaps twenty years ago due to poor quality. (We put a new pump down there last year and every two hours it pumped out a tiny amount of grey, dirty water from 300 feet or so.) Well #2.) Twenty years ago, the previous owner abandoned the first dirty water well and dug a a new 240 foot hole, but abandoned the 240 foot hole for unknown reasons. As far as I know, no water was ever produced there. Well #3.) The previous owner then drilled a shallow 40 foot well on the other end of the 35 acres and that well supplied a small quantity of poor quality water for twenty years or so (lots of tanin, iron.) All the fixtures in the house were stained and they only used that water for laundry and toilets. I installed a very elaborate water treatment system and two weeks later that 40 foot deep well went dry in August of 2006. After the rainy season we tested that well again in March of 2007. The well produced water again, but this time much dirtier, incredibly red brown. The water treatment company said the water had iron beyond what my present system could treat. I took a water sample down to an independent lab and they told me to save my $70 for the water test because looking at the filthy water they said "You can't get there from here." The water treatment company suggested a different, ozone-based system could possibly remove that much iron. Well #4.) In October 2006, we located a site a couple hundred feet away from the nearest, known good well, my neighbor's... and that became the 600 foot dry hole. I've been hauling water from the city since October 2006 and am considering my next move. I'm in a rural area with lots of homes within the half mile-- we looked at the well logs and the producing private water wells seem to be from 150 to 300 feet deep. A lot of my 35 acres is steep hill or dense forest, so the places you can get a drill truck are somewhat limited. Do you just keep drilling wells until you hit gold?

 

[Kendall69]

Check this site out

Water Witching - programs

 

[woodchuckie]

I believe in the water witching, but predicting how much water is another thing. An underground aquafier is what you need to locate. Ours is about 200 feet and there are three municipal wells and a number of private wells and plenty of water. We are in a very hilly area with a range in elevation of 300 feet. Most of the wells are in a valley maybe a quarter of a mile wide and ten miles long. The area used to be a shallow sea and that's when the sand was deposited that holds the water. All this history is public knowledge and I wouldn't pay 3500. for that type of information. Talking with as many people about thier wells and reading up on your geological history might pay off.

 

[RonMar]

What did the douser use for tools? I used to do this as a kid and was pretty good at it. It is not difficult to get an indication... Interpreting that indication depth and quantity is another matter, most certainly dependant on experience.

I use a piece of thin metal rod(.120") approximately 30" long with a 90 degree bend about 6" from one end. I hold the wire by the 6" portion. The lower part touching the meaty part of the heel of my hand. The upper part on the meaty part of my finger between the joint and tip of my finger. With your finger curled just right, these two points hill oppose each other and you will be able to hold the rod with the bend a little obove your finger with the rod pointing forward. since it is only touching the flats(not in the grove in the finger joint), the rod will swing easilly with little friction. If you roll your hand left or right, the rod will swing easilly pivitoting on those flat parts of your hand. This has a particular feel to it as the rod swings. When it swings due to a magnetic field while you are holding it level, it has a different feel to it. You can experiment and learn the difference in feel by slowly walking over a know buried pipe or wire. In fact that was the last time I did it, to locate my buried water line between wellhead and pressure tank in the garage. It helps to have a pocketfull of something visible(small pieces of cut wood, bits of cut up surveyors tape?) to place on the ground at the center of indications. By working back and forth across the test pipeline and marking your indications, you can pretty accurately establish the line location.

With practice, you will be able to detect that underground pipe at greater and greater distance and determine the difference in forces when you pass directly over the pipe. Once you get the idea how it feels, go wander around the well that still has the poor water in it and see what you find. Then go look around the area where the douser indicated the two flows. You might be surprised what you can detect.

My dad showed me how to do this as a kid and I could pick out the underground streams that flowed across our property. Some people think it is cool, some think it is pure bull****. That was how our one and only well was placed, right into a black sand underground stream bed though...

Good luck.

 

[Egon]

With the number of wells on your property and the dubious water quality do some math on setting up a cistern and hauling water. It may be easier and more reliable.

Logging and fracing wells is common practice in the oil and gas industry. It is expensive. The logs should show if water is present and fracing may make it available. My money would go towards hauling water.

 

[WayneB]

Additional Background: 35 acre parcel, kind of shaped like a bowl, with a seven acre lake in the center.

Do you own the 7 acre lake? If so what is the feed for the water in the lake and maybe you could put in a purification system and use it as your source of water. Surely it would be cheaper than drilling dry wells.

At our mountain camp I installed an ultraviolet disinfection (UV) system along with multiple filters to purify moutain stream water and it has worked fine for us. We do have the water checked yearly and all has been fine.

Ultraviolet Disinfection, UV, Sterilight, UV lamps, UV quartz sleeves, uv light

Depending upon your water useage you might have to go to a larger UV system such as these:

Ultraviolet Disinfection, UV, Sterilight, SUV Series, SUV40P, SUV65P, SUV100P, SUV225P

So I would think if you have access to the ground water (lake) then you could install a purification system that would provide you with safe drinking water.

Wayne

 

[tlbuser]

Not to say for sure, but a couple of thoughts.
You may have an IRB (Iron Related Bacteria) issue with the water. It's more common than most people realize and chlorination (with ~30minutes of contact time) followed by an activated carbon filter appear to be the most effective treatment currently available in the US. Most labs do not check for this either because it does not have an overall effect on "drinkable" water. Most states only mandate testing for health related issues such as e coli bacteria. Bacteria Testing Kits: Biological Activity Reaction Test (BART): Microbiological Testing Products - © LaMotte Company

Second thought, why can't you set up a filtration system and pump from your lake ?

 

[VABlue]

My opinion is with Egon - bury a cistern and have water brought in every now and then. The lake would be my second option...

 

[ByronBob]

I have friends around my parts with poor water and they dug multiple 1000 gallon storage tanks into the ground and tied the down spouts into the tanks for water collection.

Depending on how often it rains there this might do the trick. Only you know how long water will last at your place. You truck in how much how often?

And tell us more on the lake. Believe me the water in that lake is cleaner than anything your pumping out of the ground unless it's stagnant water like a swamp. Your purification system will treat it great.

 

[RobertN]

WE went to St Thomas, in the US Virgin Islands a couple years ago; this was a very common practice. It is a small island with no streams or creeks for water; just tropical rain. They also had a desalination plant that trucked water too.

I have friends around my parts with poor water and they dug multiple 1000 gallon storage tanks into the ground and tied the down spouts into the tanks for water collection.

Depending on how often it rains there this might do the trick. Only you know how long water will last at your place. You truck in how much how often?

 

[mikim]

google "rain water harvesting" ... lots of info on how to etc ..... sounds like it would be cheaper & better than what you have.

 

[tlbuser]

Just stumbled across this article http://www.tceq.state.tx.us/files/gi-366.pdf_4008200.pdf

 

[Gadgetnut]

Hello, everyone. Thank you very much for the input. I am out today but will be back this evening and will respond soon. Thanks again. -Gadgetnut

 

[nessmuk53]

Gadgetnut

I live in Central Va. Five years ago our well went dry. It has since come back, but I don't trust it for heavy use. We had to do a new roof so we put together a rainwater collection system with 3000 gallons of storage. Since that day in 2002 we have used rainwater for eveything but cooking and drinking. It has worked out just fine for us. I had to plumb it all in myself because I couldn't get any plumber interested in doing it though.

I would highly recommend the rainwater route.

Nessmuk

 

[hitekcountry]

Seven acre lake- is it full of water all the time or does it dry up in the summer?

What feeds the lake- rain or stream?

What is the quality of the water in the lake?

What water treatment system do you have?

Realize that even sewer water can be cleaned up to the quality of drinking water.

You could put together quite an effective water treatment system for what it would cost to drill another well that you already know would be a big gamble.

I put together an Ozone system that works great. The Ozone equipment I purchased but the overall system is my design.

 

[scott_vt]

My questions are: has anyone had any experience with hydro-frac?

Afternoon Gadgetnut,
A few years ago I began to have problems with my well at my Ct property. When I built the house in 82 I had the well pounded to a depth of 165 ft approx. We were running out of water after doing a few loads of clothes or if the kids were taking multiple showers, I believe this all happened around 97 or 98. Anyway my buddy who is in the well pump business suggested I drill the well deeper. I had a rotary job come in and he went down to 450 ft. No volume was found and they suggested hydro-frac. I was sceptical because I had spent a good deal of money already ! Im very glad we did because I know have a viable well at that property and 350 ft of reserve, my normal static level is at anywhere between 30 to 50 ft. It worked well for me but it may not for everyone. Feel free to ask any other questions !

 

[Egon]

Gadgetnut:

Maybe the first thing to do is find out more of the geology of your area. Look at this carefully and then make some decisions from there.

 

[sawdust_maker]

Gadget,

Rather than drill a new well or waste money on an existing dry hole, I'd rather spend my money on rain water collection with a buried cistern. It will be fairly clean, so easy to clean up for drinking. If this source is inadequate, then either have water trucked in, or use the pond, filtered and maybe chlorinated, as a source of water. If its too hard to clean up, split your water system so that drinking water comes from a different source.

We use lake water for all our uses. In late summer, it can be bad looking stuff. Very green, plus a fair amount of iron and hardness. After cleaning up, it is arguably higher quality water than we used to get from the municipal water system at our last place. We do use a reverse osmosis system for drinking water.

John

 

[dmccarty]

If you have to get a permit to drill a well then I would expect the county would have information on how deep one has to drill to get water as well quality and volume. Also what do the well drillers say about the area.

In my county most of the wells are 200-300 feet deep. It is a toss of the coin how much volume you get. I'm at 15 gpm. A nearby neighbor is 32 gpms! His nearest neighbor a couple hundred yards away, well to well, gets about 5 gpm. I know of lots of people with 5 gpm. The well driller said that he does not drill many dry holes in our area but the GPM varies.

When I lived in KY a guy built a really nice house on a hill with great views. A creek that never ran dry was within a few thousand feet of the house. He could not get a well with water! I have always wondered if it was because of leaky limestone but anywho they had huge cistern under the house/porch. It looked like a basement and it normally would have been but it was to hold water.

When I see the amount of water pouring off our roof in a rain I wish we had a cistern to use if for no other reason than to use for the garden.

Good luck.
Dan