need large culvert in central ohio

44trxfun · Feb 10, 2005

mb, forgive me if I'm being too simple, but how did you come to the conclusion you needed this big a pipe other than what the county used downstream? Stream crossings are usually sized based on watershed area upstream (and to some degree values at risk downstream). If there are flow records or physical evidence of flooded width, those may be invaluable for sizing your crossing. You may want to get some assistance from some technical folks at your extension service or NRCS.

Back to the bridge idea, I know some logging operations use old railroad flatcars. You would probably need some durable abutments, but that may be an alternative for you. My guess is whatever you use, for a stream of that size, it will be a bit of an investment to get a good, stable crossing in there.

Good luck!

Taylortractornut · Feb 10, 2005

Here we use flat cars from the rail road. Most of the local bridge contractors have access to them and they are fairly cheap. I have used oldgasanks that came outof servicestations. I hadasawcutthem open at the ends. Evenly backfilling them with good material and compactingthem is what makes the strong. he county should provide you with ameans to get to your property as well. One other alternative is looking in a truck and heavy equipment traderthere are a few dds for dismantled railcar tanks. They have the ends cut out of the tanks and make fine culverts. some are9 to 12 feet in diameter.

Currmudgeon · Feb 11, 2005

( Stream crossings are usually sized based on watershed area upstream (and to some degree values at risk downstream). If there are flow records or physical evidence of flooded width, those may be invaluable for sizing your crossing. You may want to get some assistance from some technical folks at your extension service or NRCS. )

In many states, a permit is required to build a bridge or culvert. This is to protect the people upstream from being flooded if you back up water, or the people downstream if your road and culvert become a dam and then wash out. They can get pretty nasty, imposing big fines and making you demolish your unpermitted structure if you fail to get a permit.

Check with your County Engineer about who you need a permit from. It varies from state to state. The process can be very onerou$, with engineer$ and computer flood model$ of the $tream required, or it can be relatively simple. The regulatory geeks can tell you.

The sizes of the upstream and downstream culverts may be instructive, but they may be all wrong, too. I've seen that many times.

Generally for construction, corrugated steel is cheaper than concrete pipe, which is cheaper than a box culvert, which is cheaper than a bridge. The use of recycled flatcars or flatbed trailers may tip the economics to a bridge. Call ConTech for tin pipe. Your job is big enough; they'll talk to you. They may also help with the design. They're generally helpful folks - they want to sell you stuff.

If you're using corrugated iron or a recycled fuel tank, be extremely careful with the sidefill and compaction. It is important that the backfill under the haunches and beside the pipe is well compacted. That's where the flexible pipe gets all its strength. I think you can find the Corrugated Pipe Manual on-line, with some design info.

dummy · Feb 11, 2005

Check with your County Engineer about who you need a permit from. Actually, you might be better off with a local civil engineering firm, more than likely the same one that will be doing the survey, house site (well and septic) and driveway stakeout. They should be able to answer all questions and/or have alternate suggestions and tell you what permits will be required. Talk to a couple of them before you decide which one will fit your needs best. At least locally, the county may steer you in the wrong direction first.

BB_TX · Feb 11, 2005

Another possiblity would be to see if you can find a local salvage yard that specilizes in semi-truck and trailer salvage. A salvaged flat bed trailer dropped across your creek would support most anything you could drive across it.

drm · Feb 11, 2005

Mike,

Dennis and others have made some very good points. Be careful that you have a design that will be approved by every one from the local building dept. to the state DEP. I have seen the DEP, and in one case the DOT, question a bridge/stream crossing after the fact. Most fire depts. in suburban areas require the "bridge" meet highway design requirements so that they can safely cross with the biggest possible fire truck.

Talking with local engineers with experience will give you an idea of possible solutions that the governing bodies will most likely accept.

Derek

mb25acres · Feb 12, 2005

i srated out thinking about a bridge, but could not get anyone to size the beams. I went to talk to the county engineer, and
he said that since it would be 250ft from the road they would
not assist me. They were the ones that suggested going with
a culvert instead. The only thing they want is for me to mark the entrance of the drive and they will issue the driveway permit and tell me what size culvert I need at the road only.
they suggested that I talk to a local engineer since they would not be involved in the croosing of the creek. I called the engineer and asked them what sort of expense I was looking at for them to tell me if I did a bridge what size beams I needed and what the spacing should be. they sent me a Quote
of 1200.00 and that would tell me the height of the ten year flood only. they said anything else would be added onto that, but did not give me any idea of a price. The county engineer told me the reason he did not want to give me any sizes is because of liability issues. I talked to a place that sells I-beams and they said because off liability issues they did not want to size them, but that if someone else sized them they would sell them to me. I am looking into the railroad car idea but not sure if I could get them here cheap enough to be under 11000 withe embutments and all. I will start calling and going around monday looking for old culverts that have been removed. The box culvert company owner is the one that came out and looked at the creek and he said he thought that
after measuring and talking to neighbors that the 10 ft would be pretty close n size might be able to go with 9ft, which is what i believe he used to base water flow rates on in figuring out what bx culvert would be best. somewhere I have theflow rate calculations that he gave me ,but I think my wife or kids cleaned around the computer and not sure where they are now.

44trxfun · Feb 12, 2005

mb, I sense frustration on your part, which is totally understandable. You want answers and solutions and all you're getting is the run-around and cover-my-butt responses. I did a little looking on Ohio's state website and came across something I think will get you started. Ohio Stream Management Guide No. 6 Start with the last paragraph before the footer, then head to the top. It may not be what you want to hear, but in my opinion, Currmudgeon brought up some excellent points. Though any of us can make suggestions and it can be tempting to just "get 'er done", YOU are the one with the potential liability. Good luck; let us know how this progresses.

mb25acres · Feb 13, 2005

thanks 44TRX that was interesting to read, scarry also. I will go and talk to the county enginear again and start calling the different agencies that were listed. I hope this does not end up a bad nightmare. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
thanks Mike

GregAndSon · Feb 13, 2005

If you were in this area I could help. Civil Engineers are taught that if they are registered that they take on all the liability of anything they review or design. That is the problem you are finding. You may want to talk to your local highway department and ask if there are any local contractors in your area that specialize in small bridges. These guys, at least in my area can size superstructure for you as well as quote you a price for constructing it. I'm sure it would be a package deal they would not size the steel, but price may not be out of hand. They may have some old steel off of old bridges they have torn down and can use that. They will also have an idea of the local permits that are needed. If you are worried about the crossing washing out a bridge is the best approach. Set the abutments back from the creek bank so you are not narrowing the channel down and the bottom of the steel near or above the top of bank and if the creek does not have a history of flooding it should be OK. All that said the Engineer in me says to get someone to look at it.