need large culvert in central ohio

RedDog · Feb 13, 2005

Mb25acres,

Do you have any pictures of your creek? I would be wanting to do it the cheapest way possible (like you).

Check your local state highway garages and or township garage.

I have a small creek on my property with about 10' tall banks. I've been thinking of checking state garages around me for a "junk" culvert pipe that they dug up to replace it. If I do, I'm going to roll the pipe into the creek and start shoving dirt around it.

I delivered freight to a state garage a couple of years ago and they had a big culvert setting there, (old one that they replaced). I'm guessing it was about 10' or 12' round and about 25' long. I asked about it and they said whenever they dig one up it goes to main garage for the area to be put up for bid. The gentlemen I talked to said generally around $100 to $200.

The main state garage for that area was at the intersection of State Route 13 and 40, just north of Interstate 70.

I would try giving them a call. I would not involve all these other $$$$$ people /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Good luck, RedDog

AndyMA · Feb 13, 2005

( In many states, a permit is required to build a bridge or culvert. This is to protect the people upstream from being flooded if you back up water, or the people downstream if your road and culvert become a dam and then wash out. They can get pretty nasty, imposing big fines and making you demolish your unpermitted structure if you fail to get a permit.
)

DO NOT FORGET and Army Corp of Engineers permit or waiver also. ALL streams in the US come under their control unless they give you a waiver. $25,000 a day fine. This permit is in addition to anything you need to be granted locally or state wise. You need to send the Army a statement of what you intend to do and enought info to determing if it is a "water of the United States of America" . I just went through this and they were very nice to deal with. The local Inland Wetlands commission and state DEP never mentioned this. My civil engineering firm said to make sure I apply. They were in the process of working through a $250,000 fine for digging a pond.

Andy

AndyMA · Feb 13, 2005

BTW. $11,000 for what your trying to do is a real good price. Just wait until you add up all the rest of the costs. I hope I'm wrong, but on my farm i have over $40,000 and 3 years into just engineering and permiting without even stilling a shovel into the ground yet /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif And I have a Inland Wetlands Public hearing scheduled for Feb 24. Wish me luck. Any body in central mass, Conn or RI that is interested I would love some support and you can get to see first hand how these agancies operate /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Andy

drm · Feb 13, 2005

I can feel for your situation. It is very frustrating to the average guy all of the government hoops you must jump through and the apparent lack of coordination on their part. There have been some very good suggesting and the Ohio Stream ... gives some good information. A good deal of time spent up front will hopefully eliminate undue costs.

The quote if you call it that, by the engineer you spoke with is unreasonable. Talk with some more engineers. Do your research first so that you can talk intelligently. When you are ready to get bids from the engineers preparing a scope of work for them will get you a good estimate.

Good luck and ask any additional questions as you go. There are a lot of good people on here.

rambler · Feb 14, 2005

I didn't realize you have not gone through the permit hassles yet. Sorry, that's how it is. If you are spanning a dug drainage ditch, there is one set of people to go through; if a natural creek a different set of people to go through.

Ohio leans far enough to the Left for this to be a real issue for you. You can run into very helpful people, or very hard-nosed people at the offices you need to visit. Most try to help you out. Best not to walk in looking to cut corners or get by, that sometimes doesn't sit well with the hard nosed people.

I would not ignore these issues, that can be a real bad path to follow. For a small part time creek all on your land - maybe. But a 10' culvert is _nothing_ to ignore, you will be affecting others & drawing attention to the project.

If it is a natural stream, the wildlife is more important than yuo & the current laws are set to bill highway depts for the costs, so things get time consuming & expensive unless you are part of the process already.

If it's a dug ditch, then they want it on your head that no one ever had any drainage issues above or below you - and that is probably a good thing. In addition you need to prove that you do not drain any wetlands in the process, which cycles you back to the first set of people somewhat.

Life has gotten hard the past 15 years for the little guy, farmers deal with these issues every day, & it only gets worse.

--->Paul

SPIKER · Feb 14, 2005

I didn't go and read the link someone provided above but have been involved in a few bridge descussions spanning creeks and or flooding ravines in ohio. not fun or cheap for sure!! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif they must meet fire truck requirements now and that means fully loaded tanker truck, 80K lbs or something like that. also must do some other garb such as stream management no silt or backups ect... big headachs for sure.

anyhow if you are FARMING and making a path for tractor and not for a house then things can change. BUT don't try and get around it if you thinking about building back there. as Im in a similar predicterment with my 22 acres of land... seasonal runoff stream crosses my place but a really really nice building spot the other side (only real prob is the driveway.) seasonal streams can be messed with SOME but you can still get into problems with epa & ODNR for errosion and or damming with out permit ect.

MarkM Jeromesville OH near mansfield.
/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Currmudgeon · Feb 15, 2005

( The quote if you call it that, by the engineer you spoke with is unreasonable. Talk with some more engineers. )

Actually, I thought it was pretty cheap, but question the "ten year only" limitation. If the stream was part of a FEMA flood study, and that's the common situation, then the 100 year is already calculated - and may be directly useable. You can't buy many manhours for $1,200, nor the liability that comes with them.

Engineers have a problem with small jobs. They have as many hassles and risks as large jobs. As many goofy, random problems arise. Perhaps more, because dealing with amateurs is a pain - it takes more time and time is money. So the hassle factor that, on a large job, is buried in coffee drinking time and potty breaks, becomes a significant cost factor and there is no manhour buffer to cover them. It's an easy way to loose your butt.

Creek work is difficult to quote a lump sum for. If you get one, there will probably be enough exclusions, that it will be meaningless. I'd expect to pay by the hour, but be prepared to watch those hours.

Definitely, call more engineers. The more people you talk with, the better iis your chance of getting a good deal or a smarter injunear.

drm · Feb 15, 2005

Dennis,

Like you I am an engineer and have designed all sizes of structures from small shoring projects for plumbers (talk about a lot of liability for little pay) up to major sports and government centers. I have even had the opportunity to demolish a major sports stadium. I read the $1,200 cost for only providing the height of the ten year flood stage. Maybe I read wrong. I agree, the stream crossing needs to meet the 100 year level which is readily available. This is why I questioned the cost.

A lump sum bid is difficult but the bid can be broken down, estimated, and fairly accurate numbers, with provisions for overruns can be achieved for each stage of the project. I am constantly bidding on projects with just a 1/2 hour verbal discussion with an architect that IS lump sum. A good, experienced engineer can give a fairly accurate estimate if he knows everything he is expected to perform. This is why I recommended talking with several engineers and the appropriate authorities before hiring a firm.

This type of work is difficult but there are qualified firms that will work with reasonable people even if they have no knowledge of what they need. The costs are just a lot higher.

…Derek

mb25acres · Feb 15, 2005

here is a pic of my creek. the right bank is about 6 ft high.the
lt bank is over 10 ft in most spots. the water in pic is only at
10-12 inches. the water was recently just above the bases of the trees on right.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/1110/sort/1/cat/500/page/1
http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/1113
http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/1111
http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/1114
I posted other pics that will help you see the lay of the land, and where I am trying to reech.

mb25acres · Feb 16, 2005

I posted two more pics they are all together in the photos section. one is a pic of an old I beam bridge that is on the bigger of the two creeks that join and go across the front of my
land. if you look at the pic with the camper it joins just behind it. I was going to use the bridge for atv, but with the last rain we had that is what washed up against it. the water then washed out on the side closest to the bottom of pic. it dropped about 1 1/2- 2ft and unless I figure out a simple way to fix, I will probably have to cut the beams out. I had the creek cleared until recently. the beams on this one are 20ft.
the other one shows my daughter
at the joining of the creeks. I am not sure but the one that is smaller maybe a county ditch, but the other is definately a natural one. I have seen the water at her waste line alittle over a month ago.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/1116
http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/1115