Need Help - F24 Overheating

[adt2]

That is Not a back-flush. Normally the water and trash flows through the rad, top to bottom, out the bottom hose and up through the block , out the upper hose and back into the radiator. You need to disconnect the upper hose stuff a garden hose into the upper hose and seal with shop rags, turn on the water and let it push the trash back out the open cap inlet, same way it came it. If it will take the full force of water and runs clear, both the block and radiator are clean. A radiator shop won't clean your block.

Well crap. If I'd known that I would've moved the tractor within reach of a water hose before I tore it apart. Is it safe to drive it 50 yards with no radiator? (I assume not.) The radiator is now gone (to the shop). Do I need to stuff a garden hose into the upper radiator hose and run water through the block until it comes out clean at the lower hose? Or vice-versa?

 

[normde2001]

That's what i would do, but as I originally said this must be done with the thermostat out, (that common sense thing again).

 

[284 International]

I would run a length of radiator hose or something similar so you can fill the engine block with a cleaning solution and let it sit; 24 hours or so, perhaps more. Then I would flush with copious amounts of water, in both directions, splash a dollop of dish soap into a hose and flush until it comes out free of suds, just generally blast it clean. Some good auto parts stores have an adapter to connect a water hose and an air compressor so you can blast air and water through a radiator. This would help ensure that everything is clear and free of contaminants.

The last thing to do might be pull the water pump apart and inspect it, but I wouldn't do that until I had the radiator back and installed and proofed by running with straight water. If it works without boiling over, then drain the water, and refill with distilled water/antifreeze in the proper blend, and though it should be entirely unnecessary, a dose of Water Wetter or other surfactant.

Good luck!

 

[adt2]

Well, I'm just about ready to go back to the horse and plow.

Picked up the rebuilt radiator yesterday afternoon; the guy that did the work said it was pretty cruddy inside. When I got it back it was clean and had a fresh coat of paint. Things were looking up.

Went over this morning and spent an hour or two putting the thing back together. Got all the nuts & bolts & hoses reattached and then put the lower side panels (mistake #1), hood (mistake #2), muffler (mistake #3), and side panels (mistake #4) back in place. Turned the key, and...nothing. Sent the kids outside so I could swear a bit. Tried again...nothing.

Gave the starter solenoid a few taps, turned the key, and she turned over. Took longer than usual (might've been because I removed the fuel line at the fuel filler cap to replace a hose clamp and got some air into the system?), but she eventually caught and fired. I pulled it out of the barn and parked on the driveway to observe. Within minutes, I had a whole mess of steady drips under the tractor. I thought it might've been just from where I missed the radiator fill when I refilled it, but it went on for too long for that to be the case. It looked like it might be coming from where the top radiator hose connects to the thermostat area, but it was hard to tell. Pulled it back into the barn and removed all the stuff I'd just spent hours putting back together (side panels, muffler, hood).

Drove over to the water hose and then: drained the radiator; removed the thermostat; pulled the upper and lower hoses off the radiator; stuffed the water hose into the upper hose and ran it for 6-8 minutes (water pouring out lower hose); stuffed the hose in the radiator fill and let it run out the bottom of the radiator for 6-8 minutes; put the hose in the bottom radiator elbow and let it overflow out the top for 6-8 minutes; then put it all back together, minus the t-stat (which I thought might be a problem). Filled with water and put back in the barn.

I let her run for another 10 minutes, and I've still got water dripping all over the bottom of the tractor. I got the compressed air line and blew everything out, thinking it might just be residual from the messy water hose adventure, but no dice. I've still got water coming from what I think is the water pump area (is that what the thermostat sits in?). By this time I was ready to shoot something and the kids were working my nerves, so I closed up the barn and headed home. Boiled the thermostat, and it seems to be working fine.

Questions: Does the thermostat go in with the spring up, or down? I thought that seemed like a no-brainer, but the only reason I could think of that fluid would suddenly be coming out there is that maybe I'd installed it wrong. Next: What now? Should I keep pulling stuff off, moving down to the water pump now?

 

[winston1]

Spring down. The water pump has a weep hole right underneath where the shaft goes into it. Check there for possible leak. Where ever the leak is you need to find it. Don't just keep taking it apart.

 

[clemsonfor]

are you sure your water pump is not working? There is a "weep" hole that water will come from when the bearing are bad. But they leak when there bad. If there bad they cant pump the water like it should. If the water pump was bad this could be your whole problem from the start.

 

[clemsonfor]

i am like winston you need to leave it together till you find whats leaking. Leave it togeather and blow the water off and watch where it leaking from.

 

[284 International]

That must be very frustrating.

You need to be working through this methodically. You might very well be and it isn't coming across well, so forgive me if it seems like I'm attacking you.

A couple central dogmas: 1. The radiator and cooling system as a whole function to manage the excessive heat in your diesel engine. It should be neither too hot or too cold. 2. The cooling system as engineered and installed by Yanmar originally will allow the engine to output its maximum rated power essentially indefinitely without overheating.

Given those two truths, we can make a conclusion: If the tractor overheats, it is not installed as it was originally. That is, something has changed. We need to do detective work to isolate where/what exactly the difference has occurred.

I like to start simple, and work toward hard, and cheap toward expensive.

We have a glaring problem with the the leaking cooling system. That wasn't present before, apparently, so it must have happened as a result of re-assembly after the radiator was replaced.

If it is coming from the water pump area, there are essentially two options, assuming the pump wasn't removed: a) The seals in the water pump somehow went bad in the few days between pulling the radiator and now, and chose this precise moment to start leaking. This is possible, but not especially likely; mechanical devices tend to not magically "go bad," but to be fair seals are among those that might do so. b) The re-assembly is not correct, in alignment/sequence/intact components. Since "a" is unlikely, let's pursue "b."

In the diagram from water pump housing up, there is what looks like an O-ring, the thermostat, then a gasket, and finally the top hose mounting elbow. Are those parts on, in that order? If so, are they intact, correctly aligned, and properly torqued? Is the hose itself cracked? Is it fully seated over the elbow? Is the hose clamp properly attached? Don't fall into the trap of smearing silicone or other sealant everywhere: Remember, our central dogma is that if we put it together as Yanmar did, it's good for 30 years or more. Until logic dictates otherwise, we should always revert to the original configuration.

If you have found a simple fix, go ahead and correct it. If you have not, and everything appears correct, go to the auto parts store and rent a radiator pressure tester (If you don't still have the earlier one). It fits onto the radiator and allows you to pressurize the system. With everything assembled correctly, pressurize the system, and isolate the leak's location. If it is from the water pump's weep hole, then the seals will need to be replaced. If it is from a cracked thermostat housing, repair that. Etc. Etc. It may be helpful to write your own dichotomous key (the yes/no part to isolate the trouble) before your start down another path.

Use water instead of coolant in this process, if you haven't already done that. It's cheaper and less hazardous across the board. Then once you get it figured out, drain and fill correctly.

Work in baby steps, simply and rationally. There is a hole between the inside of the cooling system and the outside of it; you just need to figure out where.

Good luck, let us know how you do!

 

[normde2001]

Why do you keep messing with that thermostat? It has nothing to do with your problem.

 

[clemsonfor]

I think there is a good chance that maybe the T stat houseing is not sealed tight if the waterpump check well

 

[careyo63]

Is it still opening? May want to remove and boil it and check it's opening. I see you done that. Double check it and agree to check the housing that it's not leaking there. No leaks there probably the Water Pump. If the Pumps Dry it very well could be the Radiator.

 

[adt2]

Where ever the leak is you need to find it. Don't just keep taking it apart.

Believe me, I would LOVE to stop taking this thing apart. Problem is I couldn't see where the leak was coming from without removing some stuff. Of course now I can't start the tractor to observe it anyway, so I'm not sure I've gained anything.

 

[adt2]

I like to start simple, and work toward hard, and cheap toward expensive.

Agreed.

We have a glaring problem with the the leaking cooling system. That wasn't present before, apparently, so it must have happened as a result of re-assembly after the radiator was replaced.

Much as I hate to admit it, I think this is probably correct, too. I thought I was very careful when removing and replacing the radiator and associated hardware, but it just seems like too much of a coincidence for it to be something else at this point.

In the diagram from water pump housing up, there is what looks like an O-ring, the thermostat, then a gasket, and finally the top hose mounting elbow. Are those parts on, in that order? If so, are they intact, correctly aligned, and properly torqued? Is the hose itself cracked? Is it fully seated over the elbow? Is the hose clamp properly attached?

All those parts are present and accounted for. When I removed the radiator, I didn't remove anything else that wasn't required to get to the radiator. All the hoses I detached at the radiator-end connection, leaving the other end intact wherever it was attached (i.e. water pump, drain hole, etc.). Maybe we cracked a hose getting it off (or back on), but it appeared to me (what little I could see) that the water was coming from the underside front of the water pump. There just wasn't a way to see it without sticking my face into a spinning fan blade.

...go to the auto parts store and rent a radiator pressure tester...and isolate the leak's location.

Thanks, I hadn't thought of that. Pressurizing it without the motor running would make for much easier inspection. I'll try that this weekend.

To the poster asking about messing with the thermostat - my thought process was this: Okay, now that the radiator has been fixed, there's this massive leak coming (apparently) from the area where the t-stat is installed - that wasn't there before! Maybe the radiator wasn't working before and now that it is it's sending fluid down that hose and it can't go anywhere because I installed the t-stat wrong or maybe the t-stat is broken...while I'm elbows-deep here maybe I better check it...

Anyhow, I tested it and it's working. And I apparently had it installed correctly (spring-down, toward the water pump). So something else must be the issue.

 

[winston1]

Are you saying it does not leak unless running? Have you felt the weep hole on the water pump?

 

[adt2]

Not sure, Winston. It didn't leak before I started it (after reassembling). Then it leaked a bunch, and as I recall it kept leaking for a little while after shutting down (but that could've just been drips working their way down to the pavement from up above somewhere).

This morning is the first I've heard of the weep-hole on the water pump, so I haven't checked that. I'll see if I can find it when I get back over there.

 

[clemsonfor]

Agreed.



Much as I hate to admit it, I think this is probably correct, too. I thought I was very careful when removing and replacing the radiator and associated hardware, but it just seems like too much of a coincidence for it to be something else at this point.



All those parts are present and accounted for. When I removed the radiator, I didn't remove anything else that wasn't required to get to the radiator. All the hoses I detached at the radiator-end connection, leaving the other end intact wherever it was attached (i.e. water pump, drain hole, etc.). Maybe we cracked a hose getting it off (or back on), but it appeared to me (what little I could see) that the water was coming from the underside front of the water pump. There just wasn't a way to see it without sticking my face into a spinning fan blade.



Thanks, I hadn't thought of that. Pressurizing it without the motor running would make for much easier inspection. I'll try that this weekend.

To the poster asking about messing with the thermostat - my thought process was this: Okay, now that the radiator has been fixed, there's this massive leak coming (apparently) from the area where the t-stat is installed - that wasn't there before! Maybe the radiator wasn't working before and now that it is it's sending fluid down that hose and it can't go anywhere because I installed the t-stat wrong or maybe the t-stat is broken...while I'm elbows-deep here maybe I better check it...

Anyhow, I tested it and it's working. And I apparently had it installed correctly (spring-down, toward the water pump). So something else must be the issue.

Didnt Carey and I mention a pressure testor back like a month ago and on the other post? Or you just had not thought of useing one now to pressureize the system?

Also a tip, look at the tanks on the radiator, the top and bottom one. they will pull those sometimes when cleaning it and they may have not got the gasket set back right or it may not just be completly sealed with soder if that how these seal...i am not really sure as i havent looked and dont know my old school radiators to well. Basically what i am saying is that there is a chance that if the shop took a tank off they when they put it back on they did not get it sealed up well. Which could...i say could be a source of a leak.

 

[clemsonfor]

Agreed.




All those parts are present and accounted for. When I removed the radiator, I didn't remove anything else that wasn't required to get to the radiator. All the hoses I detached at the radiator-end connection, leaving the other end intact wherever it was attached (i.e. water pump, drain hole, etc.). Maybe we cracked a hose getting it off (or back on), but it appeared to me (what little I could see) that the water was coming from the underside front of the water pump. There just wasn't a way to see it without sticking my face into a spinning fan blade.

.

This makes it sound to me like you have a bad water pump, which could of caused all of this strage and FAST overheating problems from the get go. Is there excess play on the shaft that comes out of the front of the water pump?

YOu can stick your head under the tractor while its running. I might use safety glasses if its dripping real bad to protect your eyes but you can see the hole were talking about. Any water or rust spots like it has been leaking are not good, a sign of worn seals and bearings, and should be replaced.

 

[adt2]

Didnt Carey and I mention a pressure testor back like a month ago and on the other post? Or you just had not thought of useing one now to pressureize the system?

Yes you did, and I went and borrowed one from auto parts place and used it as specified...but at that time I had no idea I was supposed to be looking for a leak at the water pump.

 

[adt2]

This makes it sound to me like you have a bad water pump, which could of caused all of this strage and FAST overheating problems from the get go. Is there excess play on the shaft that comes out of the front of the water pump?

YOu can stick your head under the tractor while its running. I might use safety glasses if its dripping real bad to protect your eyes but you can see the hole were talking about. Any water or rust spots like it has been leaking are not good, a sign of worn seals and bearings, and should be replaced.

I'll get under there and check it out this evening or tomorrow morning. I'll have to reassemble everything again in order to get it running, but I can leave all the body panels off so I can inspect everything.

 

[careyo63]

If you can pressure it up your see it. If you try checking it running, Just remember make sure you have pressure and start at the top and work your way down. Thermostat, Hose down to the Water Pump, Hoses to the Radiator, Radiator. Also by running it and the Leak is in the Radiator the fan will blow fluid everywhere. So make sure the inside of the Fan Shroud isn't wet from a Radiator leak.