National I.D. Card

Joeinindy · Sep 25, 2001

Another simple solution to a complex problem, pass another law, add a layer of paper. Guess it's just too hard to add more manpower to the FBI, CIA and the state and local police. Why try and enforce our current laws or add teeth to the INS when with a stroke of the pen we all can feel safe and warm when we carry our ID card. It sure has worked with gun control, we passed a few more laws and the criminals fell right in line and the honest citizen ,who jumps through hoops to buy or carry a hand gun, is suddenly safe. We need tough hard measures taken and the manpower and the courts to back it up. Just my two cents on this........

RPM · Sep 25, 2001

But the question is - how do you tell an immigrant from a citizen? It's easy to learn an accent ... I think there's an assumption that it's easy to spot the immigrant?

And again ... there are many people in the US that have no more ID than a birth certificate. How would a local cop in Arkansas know that the birth certificate from Oregon was fake?

No ID system makes any sense until everyone is required to carry the same ID. Otherwise you can just claim to be part of the group that doesn't need ID.

Suspect : Oh no officer ... I'm a citizen ...

Officer: I'm very sorry to bother you then ... have a nice day

Patrick

StoneHeartFarm · Sep 25, 2001

I think a National ID card could save my life! I'm envisioning something like a "sandwich board" that could hang over my shoulders and cover me front and back from neck to feet. It would be bullet proof, fire proof, bomb proof and knife proof. Maybe it could even have ventilated side panels.

Unfortunately anything short of that probably wouldn't make us safe, it would just give us more daily hassle carrying and displaying one more form of ID. As to criminals being stopped in other states, I haven't heard if the hijackers were ever stopped for traffic offenses or checked for ID. These guys lived real quiet lives, were good neighbors and for all intents and purposes up until the last day, reasonably good visitors. So, unless EVERYONE were checked for their National ID ALL the time, there would be no way to know if these guys were legal or not without Racial Profiling. Green Cards? These guys didn't even have valid Visas.

The Friday after the plane bombs hit, our local police picked up a gentleman who claimed to be Mexican. Through an interpreter, he explained that he grew up in the US. He couldn't speak a word of english. Being suspicious types, the local sheriff called INS and asked them to have a hold put on the guy so they could keep him long enough to check things out. INS said "Sorry, can't do it. It's after closing time. It'll have to wait until Monday."

I understand in Afghanistan, there is a large Hindu population. The Taliban has ordered all of them to wear a badge so they will be easy to identify. Sort of what the Nazis did to the Jews. I liken a National ID card to that, only in reverse. It says you're a member of the preferred club.

SHF

PitbullMidwest · Sep 25, 2001

Harv,
Your last post clearifies a few things about your position. An ID card does nothing if it tracks law abiding citizens though.

How would crime/terrorism be curtailed by knowing that Joe Average flys to Hobokin once a month for business, likes to shop at the Gap and buys his gas at the Quicky Mart if everything he does is legal? It seems like a waste of national resources to follow those without any hint of criminal intent. Maybe if someone could explain how these cards would reduce crime/terrorism I'd switch camps, but I doubt it.

The use of ID cards would be better suited to non-citizens or those who have repeatedly shown that they can not live within the laws of our nation.

Anonymous Poster · Sep 25, 2001

Of course, that was the S.F. Bay Area, which obviously doesn't represent the whole country.

Obviously.

Anonymous Poster · Sep 25, 2001

Suspect : Oh no officer ... I'm a citizen ...

Officer: I'm very sorry to bother you then ... have a nice day


or the flip side:

Officer: ID please.

Suspect : Oh no officer ... I'm a citizen ...

Officer: I said ID, Spread 'em pal when I ask for ID I mean NOW! What are you some kinda commie? You wanted somewhere? Boy these new ID cards sure do help to identify all you terrorists!

Suspect: But I'm your mother!

What a bunch of puke.

RPM · Sep 25, 2001

Grumpy,

So ... you are living under the illusion that you have some sort of privacy right now?

Just as an example - if law enforcement wanted to track you down:

- They would get the server logs which would show what IP address you entered your post from
- They would track down your Internet service provider
- The ISP would tell whose login was assigned to that IP address
- You would be traced either to a home user account or a company. If a company then the IT group would easily find what workstation you were at.

Regardless of what scenario you use these days ... your privacy is but an illusion. An ID card just serves to make the process easier. To track a threat you have to have positive ID. A secure national ID system is the cheapest way to go. Doesn't matter if it is a card - or a fingerprint, or a retina scan or whatever.

I only hope for your sake that it isn't you or your family members that are killed or injured before you get the point. Somehow I get the impression that you are probably a very patriotic individual, but the reality of what happened 2 weeks ago hasn't sunk in yet.

As a side-debate ... this country is so vast I really doubt that the horror has struck home to people in its remote corners. If there was a poll taken in New York City I think that ID cards would come out more favorably than if the poll was taken in Alabama for example.

I hate to say it but I fully expect that it will take several more terrorist strikes before any serious legislation is enacted.

Taking an even more cynical viewpoint - maybe what some people need to see is just the financial equation. For example - you will need a tax increase of 40% to pay for the massive infrastructure required to track terrorists without ID cards. Or you can stay at the same tax rate and we will all have to carry a card. Your loss of privacy is the same in both cases.

So, the terrorist acts will keep taking place - war or not - until far more people are affected. Once it gets to be unbearable then it will probably get down to the simple question of how much money the individual thinks it is worth to ensure protection. Maybe it will take loss of life in the war, maybe loss of life at home. The end result will be the same.

Patrick

TerryinMD · Sep 25, 2001

It appears as though most of the posters to this thread oppose National ID's. Is that a bad thing - NO!! It points out that Americans VALUE their freedom. That is one of the major issues with the terrorists - Freedom. Most don't have it and wish to infringe upon it. By any means possible.

Now, the question is how do we keep our freedom. Ahhh - tricky question. I and a few others have mentioned that one of the quickest ways to track aliens is to tighten up the information gathering on people coming into this country. Will it cost more to ID everyone is this country or a few dollars to beef up current alien identification? Will this prevent all terrorist activities? Probably not. Will it deter? Probably so, due to the fact that we could track alien activities much easier. Maybe we should be refusing the entry of more people? Sure don't like the thought of that since all of us have come from other places at one time or another. But what else can we do to maximize the safety and the freedoms we so dearly love and cherish? More food for thought......

Terry

ejb · Sep 25, 2001

So if privacy is an illusion already, and law enforcement has the capability ALREADY to track us down, why do we need to spend billions of dollars on a national ID card? How will it benefit? How would it have prevented tim mcveigh from blowing up the OK Fed building? How would it prevent a terrorist that walked across the boarder, or was smuggled in, from building a bomb out of diesel fuel and fertilizer and putting it into the back of a stolen truck and driving it into a nuke plant?

I don't think people are opposed to solutions that will actually accomplish something, I think that people are unwilling to give up whatever amount of privacy they have left, not to mention billions of dollars of tax money for the ILLUSION that they are safer...

Also, who on this forum would willing to submit to random searches of their home? What if it could be proven that we would have 1% less murders? would it be worth it? What if it could be demionstraded that having random searches of peoples homes (without warrants or cause) would reduce the murder rate by 10%? 15% 25%? Would it be worth it. How much of your rights are you willing to give up for safety? A 25% reduction in the murder rate would be quite an accomplishment...after all, if you have nothing to hide, how could you object?

Edited by ejb on 09/25/01 10:46 AM (server time).

RPM · Sep 25, 2001

ejb,

There are no black & white, 100% solutions. I agree with you.

What ID cards or a suitable biometric system would do is make it harder to carry out these acts. It would also be cheaper for the feds to monitor.

Politically it is still a hot potato - but you know what? A few more bombs, crashes and attacks and that will change. It's inevitable - we are no longer isolated, protected by two oceans. Other terrorist groups have seen how to do it and they will now go for it also. You only need one person willing to sacrifice their life to the cause - they don't even have to be associated with an organization.

I guarantee you can't eliminate the threat. But how do you make it much, much harder at a reasonable financial cost? And we in the US are driven by financial cost.

Patrick

Anonymous Poster · Sep 25, 2001

I only hope for your sake that it isn't you or your family members that are killed or injured before you get the point. 

I get the point. Many friends and relatives will be on the front lines if we go to war. But how does further eroding OUR rights, freedom or privledges equate to preventing other attacks?

FREEDOM AND LIBERTY ARE MORE THAN THE ABSENCE OF FEAR AND WAR!

A WWI vet told me that when he returned from France after fighting for freedom, he was amazed at how much freedom he had already lost here at home.

As to illusions, it sounds like you are the one living in an illusion if you think some ID card, supercomputers and lots of tax dollars are going to ensure your protection. Remember RPM, as long as you have your ID card, the terrorists can do you no harm. How's that for an illusion.

ejb · Sep 25, 2001

>>There are no black & white, 100% solutions. I agree with you.

On this we can agree.

But I would rather do nothing, than pay for and be inconvienced by an expensive, privacy reducing system that will never work properly and will never prevent even a single terrorist attack. The Federal goverment can't even run the IRS properly, how do you expect them to track the day to day movements of 280Million people? The answer is they can't, so why waste the money and try. You would be hard pressed to name one massively complex large scale information technology project that the government has been able to complete successfully (i.e. on budget, on schedule and with all of the promised benefits). There are none. (Most private corporations can't do it either). How many tens of billions of dollars has the IRS spent "modernizing" its computers only to have one massive and expensive failure after another. Even using high priced external consultants and contractors from the private sector.

The governement that governs least, governs best.

Papers please....

RPM · Sep 25, 2001

Grumpy,

I know you have your hand on your heart and are filled with good intentions.

But you don't get the point. You are on the front-line right now. We all are. We are living in a war zone. How do you identify friend or foe?

To use a battlefield analogy, the terrorists are wearing the American uniform right now - they have forged IDs. How do you tell who they are? You make it harder for them to get that uniform ... a good biometric ID system would go a long way to doing that.

And you know what? If we find that one of the bad guys is wearing the uniform of a good guy - with an ID system we'll be able to locate them fast.

It's not the final answer, but it makes it harder for the terrorists. Biometric ID systems or cards will become part of the arms race in the war against terrorism.

Patrick

RPM · Sep 25, 2001

ejb,

I also agree with you that the feds don't have what it takes on large computer deployments etc.

However, this is part of the arms race against terrorism. First line of action is to make it harder for the terrorist to assume a fake identity and roam unimpeded around the country.

By the way, look at Afghanistan for an example of a country with minimal government ...

Patrick

ejb · Sep 25, 2001

>>By the way, look at Afghanistan for an example of a country with minimal government ...

Afghanistan is not a minimal intrusive government, in fact they are just the opposite. They are run more or less like a dictatorship and have ultimate authority over everybody in the country without any "rights" for the people. That is not how I would describe a "minimal" governement.

A minimal governemt is one that gives as much freedom and rights to the individual. Surely you can't be serious that that describes Afghanistan?

Anonymous Poster · Sep 25, 2001

Despite the billions of dollars spent on xray machines, metal detectors, bomb sniffing dogs and all the other high technology the planes were taken over by men with knives who to the best of our knowledge, were here legally and were not wanted for crimes elsewhere. No ID card would have stopped this. Terrorist groups will go to great lengths to find willing participants who have clean records and can obtain one of these ID card without suspection. Lets not over look the possibility of moles within our government willing to provide cards for money. Look at the number of traitors working for the Soviets that have been uncovered in recent years. These kind of people love their money more than their country or countrymen.

We are not in a war zone or on the front lines any more than we were following OKC. Paranoia is an after effect of all such incidents, not that we shouldn't be vigilant, but we shouldn't go off half cocked surrendering our freedoms for the false sense of security.

The battle cry of the American Revolution was "live free or die". I guess I'd rather die in my freedom than live under a government that believes that I pose a security risk based on my buying habits and the church I choose to attend.

PitbullMidwest · Sep 25, 2001

By the way, look at Afghanistan for an example of a country with minimal government 

There is a difference between minimal government and minimal government intrusion in to its citizen's lives. Monitoring the everyday lives of Americans seems to be a step toward what the Taliban is doing, not preventing it.

RPM · Sep 25, 2001

Grumpy,

Interesting points.

The first about finances is very valid - for perhaps a different reason than you expect. Why was all the equipment useless? Because we as the public are unwilling to pay for higher airfares that would in turn allow better security.

The average turnover of security staff at an airport is well over 100%. They make roughly the same as the guy flipping burgers at McDonalds. As a comparison - when was the last time you heard of a hijacking on El-Al - the Israeli airline? Don't you think they are targeted? In the rest of the world, these people are well qualified, highly trained and paid a respectable wage. They go through weeks of training initially plus constant refreshers. Our security staff in US airports are miserably trained by comparison and much less qualified initially. In fact, I would argue we need to totally change the hiring profile to match that of the people that know how to do this - people like the folks at El-Al.

By the way, we're not going to be able to change this any time soon. When was the last time that you managed to convert an unskilled, unqualified person into a professional overnight ... or even inside a couple of months. Security essentially stays the same at US airports until we fix this - fancy machines or not.

So my point on that is that it's about finances. We are now probably willing to pay more for safety on the airlines. Are we willing to pay more in taxes for the US government to do a comparable job internationally and with immigration policy? One way to make their job easier and cheaper would be with a national ID system.

As for the motto "Live Free and Die" I would be inclined to agree. However I do want a fighting chance to live free. I'm willing to live a little less free if it means I don't have to worry about a sneak nerve-gas attack next time I'm in Manhattan.

Patrick

hightechredneck · Sep 25, 2001

"I'm willing to live a little less free if it means I don't have to worry about a sneak nerve-gas attack next time I'm in Manhattan."

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

RPM · Sep 25, 2001

Pitbull Midwest,

I don't see a national ID system as intrusive. I see it as a way to improve national security somewhat. Any privacy you have is illusory anyway.

As an example ... I could reveal your name and address etc. right now. My guess is that you live in Iowa, your area code is 319 and your local exchange is 754. I may be slightly off but it wouldn't take long to confirm. I can do that without even being the admin of this site.

It's just too easy.

Patrick