National I.D. Card

/ National I.D. Card #61  
hightechredneck wrote:

<font color=blue>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.</font color=blue>

and your point is? Remember, to old Benjamin a weapon of mass destruction was a cannon or a shotgun. This is one of the most badly misquoted lines out there.

The times have changed.

Patrick
 
/ National I.D. Card #62  
>>One way to make their job easier and cheaper would be with a national ID system.

I'll ask the question again. How would a national ID card have prevented Tim McVeigh from bombing the OK fed building?
 
/ National I.D. Card #63  
yes, sadly, the times have changed.

but they didn't changed overnight. they changed overtime. it's called incrementalism and it's the crux of your argument.

you keep saying that any privacy we have is illusory and that the national id card will just make it cheaper and quicker for the "authorities" to find out who you are. you will find no argument from me on that.

what concerns me, and i suspect many others, is what else this id card can be used for.

seems like every time an abortion clinic is bombed or shot up it's always done by some radical right-to-life Christian.

so, in the not to distant future, it would make sense for the whitewright police department to keep an eye on me since they did a sweep on the id card database and it turns out that i'm a member of the Trinity Baptist church and i also have a ccl. maybe even come by and ask to inspect the house. after all, if i haven't done anything wrong then i shouldn't have anything to hide, right?

the strength of America is the freedom and liberty that it's citizens enjoy. we don't make America a safer and better place by removing those freedoms.

as far as Mr. Franklin's quote, it's just as applicable today as it was during the infancy of our country. (i'm assuming you meant mis-applied and not mis-quoted. i'm pretty sure that what i wrote was a direct quote)

in my opinion, the answer is not to curtail the freedoms and liberties of the citizens. the answer is to restore some of the lost freedoms(the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed) and to enforce immigration laws and keep a closer eye on those that are in this country both legally and illegally.

i'm not saying you are wrong in your opinions. i'm saying that you and i haven't a different concept of what makes this country strong and safe.

best regards,

charlie
 
/ National I.D. Card #64  
Then what would you consider intrusive?

signature.JPG
 
/ National I.D. Card #65  
>>I'll ask the question again. How would a national ID card have prevented Tim McVeigh from bombing the OK fed building?

Possibly the Feds would have had a better grip on the militia movement in the first place.

Definitely they would have caught him quicker afterwards.

Probably they wouldn't have screwed up the trial so badly.

Good question. As I've said, a national ID system is not a panacea - but it closes the gap significantly.

Both Oklahoma City and the World Trade Center were the first of their kind - major terrorist events on US soil committed by domestic and foreign terrorists respectively. Both would have been extremely hard to prevent.

A national ID system that was well monitored could help to prevent similar incidents in the future. What will always catch us out is incidents that we didn't seriously contemplate.

I think we've learned our lesson and it's time to put some measures in place. I think a national ID system is a good start.

Patrick
 
/ National I.D. Card #66  
hightechredneck wrote:

<font color=blue>>>seems like every time an abortion clinic is bombed or shot up it's always done by some radical right-to-life Christian.

>>so, in the not to distant future, it would make sense for the whitewright police department to keep an eye on me since they did a sweep on the id card database and it turns out that i'm a member of the Trinity Baptist church and i also have a ccl. maybe even come by and ask to inspect the house. after all, if i haven't done anything wrong then i shouldn't have anything to hide, right?</font color=blue>

This is where we have to rely on the constitution. Police don't do that today and they may well have the information you refer to at hand. This is the kind of legal issue that the founding fathers did have in mind when they put the checks and balances into the constitution. It's the reason why it is still not a trivial task to get a search warrant, or place a wiretap.

You raise a good point. There would have to be some justification of what information can be stored on individuals. This doesn't mean that a national ID system wouldn't work. At it's most basic it would just verify who a person is - perhaps whether they were a citizen or not and whether or not they had a criminal record or outstanding warrant. Perhaps the location of that 'check' would also be recorded.

Even with just this basic information, if the FBI or NSA happened to be interested in that individual, say, as part of a terrorist organization they would have a far better jump on the matter.

<font color=blue>>>the strength of America is the freedom and liberty that it's citizens enjoy. we don't make America a safer and better place by removing those freedoms.</font color=blue>

Sometimes a strength can become a weakness when the rules change. I don't like this change, but it has happened. We need to adapt or will suffer. Our adversaries are more than willing to exploit this new set of rules to bring death and destruction to us.

<font color=blue>>>as far as Mr. Franklin's quote, it's just as applicable today as it was during the infancy of our country. (i'm assuming you meant mis-applied and not mis-quoted. i'm pretty sure that what i wrote was a direct quote)</font color=blue>

I meant mis-applied. I maintain that it does not apply to today. Old Ben did not have the knowledge of today's threats to balance his argument.

<font color=blue>>>in my opinion, the answer is not to curtail the freedoms and liberties of the citizens. the answer is to restore some of the lost freedoms(the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed) and to enforce immigration laws and keep a closer eye on those that are in this country both legally and illegally.</font color=blue>

OK - so tell me why that's the answer!! Immigration laws weren't the problem at the World Trade Center or Oklahoma City. How on earth would the right to bear arms have helped either situation as well? If anything it makes it easier for a potential terrorist that enters this country to arm themselves ...

Patrick
 
/ National I.D. Card #67  
>>Then what would you consider intrusive?

I'll define it by what I don't consider intrusive. We'll keep the Taleban out of it for the moment as that will complicate the matter.

For me, the crux of the matter is to consistently verify a persons identity as they carry out the major tasks of their life. Consider it (ideally) a super-secure version of a Social Security Card.

The goal in this is to drastically reduce the possibility of using fake IDs to open bank accounts, steal identities, book airline tickets etc. The direct knock-on effect is that once an individual is suspected (for whatever reason) of a crime, they can be tracked without hiding behind a series of fake identities.

That's all. No tracking of religion or political affiliation or anything else of that nature. We have checks and balances in our constitution already to help protect against abuses of this nature. Yes - we will need to lobby our representatives to make sure that any legislation is carefully crafted.

The technology exists to do this ID work. The Pentagon uses retina/iris scans and thumb-prints to access some of their more secure areas. Both are very fast.

Will it eliminate terrorism? - no ...

Does it eliminate the need for intelligence sources to identify potential terrorist suspects in the first place? - no ...

Does it make law enforcement's job much easier in finding suspects once identified (doesn't mean after a crime committed)? - yes

Does it make law enforcement's job of tracking that individual's network of associates easier? - yes

As I keep saying, there is no ideal fix. A national ID system is a strong contender to make us all more secure though. It significantly raises the bar for these terror groups - a bar which is currently down at ground level ...

Patrick

P.S. I would sign up for a national ID system just to reduce identity theft - never mind terrorism.
 
/ National I.D. Card #68  
>>No tracking of religion or political affiliation or anything else of that nature.

>>Does it make law enforcement's job much easier in finding suspects once identified (doesn't mean after a crime committed)? - yes

>>Does it make law enforcement's job of tracking that individual's network of associates easier? - yes

I find a few holes in the above statement. If you don't track political associations, religous affliations or anything else etc, how exactly does a national ID card allow LE officers to track an individual's network of associates?

Thats the problem, it won't be just used as an ID; it is WILL be used to track everything about honest citizens that should have the right to do as they please as long as they do not break laws...every read George Orwells 1984?

Papers please...
 
/ National I.D. Card #69  
<font color=blue>>>I find a few holes in the above statement. If you don't track political associations, religous affliations or anything else etc, how exactly does a national ID card allow LE officers to track an individual's network of associates?

>>Thats the problem, it won't be just used as an ID; it is WILL be used to track everything about honest citizens that should have the right to do as they please as long as they do not break laws...every read George Orwells 1984? </font color=blue>

OK - three separate responses from me to your points here.

1. I agree that my arguments aren't watertight - but I believe that the use of a national ID system is the right general direction. There is lots of work ahead to define appropriate usage, constitutionality etc.

2. How would it be useful without political or religious affiliations noted?

Well - this one is a little more complex. Simply put, imagine two lists of names. One is for the national ID system. The other is a list that may get turned up by the NSA/CIA/FBI. How do you track down suspects? Match up the lists. You might do the match by finger-print, or by name, or by some other unique characteristic, but you would be able to do it.

So, the national ID system does not end up carrying any extraneous information. If the list being researched by the FBI/NSA/CIA just happens to be for the Islamic Jihad or the Michigan Militia, that's their concern. They would have to have legitimate concern to be pursuing their investigation as governed by the usual laws in place today. So all that the national ID system is doing at this point is saying yes - this individual's last known location was Michigan ... and when you catch up with the individual the biometric information should be secure enough that you can confirm the person you have in custody is the person that (for example) came into the country via Saudi Arabia 7 months ago -- OR -- is actually John Doe from Arizona as he claims.

3. How does this help with networks of individuals?

So, next step. FBI/CIA/NSA or whatever develops sufficient evidence to exercise a search warrant (or whatever the suitable legal document is) to check with the banks as to what financial activity the individual has been up to. A judge would have to approve based on the evidence presented to them by the appropriate agency.

The agency would then be able to see who checks were written to, timing and location of cash withdrawals, credit-card transactions etc. This helps dramatically with identifying whether or not the person is receiving wired funds etc.

In essence, the national ID system provides a difficult-to-forge identity that the various agencies can then use to cross-reference information. As I said in another message - imagine it as a super-secure Social Security Number.

I notice that you are a software developer ... think of the national ID as a unique key-field for a variety of databases. The critical issue being that it is not just a number - it would also have to be linked to some super-secure biometric information such as digitized fingerprint, retina scan etc. to make effective -- technologies that are available today.

Patrick

P.S. I have read 1984, Animal Farm etc. - Orwell was a gloomy character. Those are extreme illustrations.

Again, the reality is that your privacy is an illusion already. The really scary part about that is that you are wide open to identity theft in addition to the terrorist risk. I would advocate a national ID system just to halt the scourge of identity theft. The benefit of being able to track terrorists more quickly is an added bonus in my mind.
 
/ National I.D. Card #70  
Gee Bird, by the time I get around to answering your post two pages have appeared. Since our founding fathers are being pulled from the closet and rattled about skeleton-like. I guess I'll do the same. Wasn't it Thomas Payne who said "These are the times that try men's souls". Now someone tell me that one doesn't apply.
Bird, I agree with you. If it does turn into the same thing as the drug czar, then the war on terrorism will be the same as the war on drugs. Need I say more?
But, as I said if it's done right, I think it can be more effective than a National ID card. I heard today that drug siezures on the border with Mexico have decreased in recent weeks. The reason being that with the steped up security smuglers are not willing to try.

Ernie
 
/ National I.D. Card #71  
Al (AKA TwinkleToes), You have certainly ignited a firestorm sized conflagration over national ID cards! Good for you, it might provoke thought. I have read through the thread and reserved judgement and comment, till now. There are obviously good intentions on both the pro and con sides. Everyone wants a good outcome, an improvement, let's don't just sit here, let's do something, even if it doesn't help.

Better to light a single candle that to forever curse the darkness. Yeah, if A L L the passengers and crew on the Titanic could have been issued thimbles and formed into a disciplined bucket brigade and worked feverishly untill they dropped, they would have all drowned because the boat was not salvagable by the means at hand.

I'm afraid that the national ID card would be as effective for actually preventing terrorist acts as the Brady bill and a bunch of other gun control legislation is at stopping criminals from using guns in the commision of felonies. It makes some of us feel as if we are at least doing something and it serves to further the agenda of those who use every imaginable emotional news item to ratchet tighter in their view of how WE should be controlled.

The Government is often guilty of form and appearance over substance because reality doesn't sell, make folks feel better, or serve anyones agenda. Right now the vox populi is clamoring for safety from terrorist attack and someone has a big pacifier in the form of a national ID card to slap in our collective mouth.

Caution, historical digression for example of Governmental indirection, follows:

Anyone here old enough to actually recall the aluminum pots and pan drives of WW II? Any students of history recall hearing about them? Many housholds suffered the privation of donating their aluminum cookware "to the cause", aluminum was needed for the war effort - planes, drop tanks, and all that. Americans came through, proudly in America's hour of need. As Paul Harvey would say, "and now for the rest of the story." The aluminum in the pots and pans was of such inferior quality that it was stockpiled and N O T used during the war. It was cheaper to refine "good" aluminum. This phony appeal to patriotism alowed Americans at all (would you believe most?) economic levels to "get in the mood" as other less easily agreed to "adjustments" were made to Americans every day lives. After the war, the Government sold the stockpiles of aluminum pots and pans to pots and pan manufacturers who melted them down and made, dare I say it, pots and pans out of it. Hoardes of ex military men, hungry for jobs after the war became door to door salesmen. One of the hot items in real demand was aluminum pots and pans.

Let us take care that what we support has a fair chance of success and actually thereby serves the intended purpose, not the agenda of any people who might co-opt our current patriotic zeal to further a different end than anti-terrorism. If I truly thought that carrying a national ID card would serve to actually prevent terrorist acts in and on Ameria, I would embrace the plan, knowing it would be perverted (my mistrust has many historic precidences) I would embrace it and urge others to do likewise.

Anyone recall the flop movie, "The Poseidan Adventure"? In it, two groups of survivors were moving through the upside down but still floating ship in the direction each group thought was the best hope for safety. They passed each other somewhere amidships, each making heartfelt entreaties to the other to come with them and live, each thinking the course of action by the other group to be suicide. Strength of conviction, eloquence of spokesmen, or cute sarcasms do nothing to change the reality of our experience. What major freedom affecting laws imposed on the American populace, e.g. gun control or what have you, has ever had the promised effect. This is not an argument over shades of grey. What gun use felonies were reduced? Few or none. Perhaps someone would slowly and patiently explain to me how, in fact, not suposition, my carrying an ID card would stop terrorism in the US or materially reduce it. I would bet a rootbeer float that any number of folks on the TBN could suggest a way to defeat virtually any supposed control institituted or supposedly augmented substantially by isueing national ID cards.

I suggest this ID card thing relationship to the recent terrorist acts is a red herring born in the intersection of two needs, 1. codependence between the populace's need for action and the Government's need to be perceived as acting A N D 2. the forces of evil behind our reductions in personal freedom, control in general (epitomized in gun control), and the reduction/removal of personal acountability.

Another brief historical footnote: Anyone recall the term Social Security Insurance (SSI) as opposed to our later use of the abbreviated form, Social Security? Well it seems that SSI was sold to the American populace as insurance. This was done for the simple fact that you couldn't, at the time, sell socialism. No one would have allowed socialism to be instituted at a national level, people would have barricaded the streets and turned out with torches and pitchforks. A clever marketing plan was devised. We'll call it insurance, everyone understands you pay for insurance and if something happens the insurance pays... Think this is historically innacurate? Well, it so happens that one of the main men behind the plan was interviewed on camera years later and freely admitted to having sold a very unpopular concept to the American people by renaming it. I saw it in an American History class. An example of paternalism, well intentioned but nevertheless selling socialism to folks to whom the very word was distasteful. Of course we were a tad more self reliant then, with personal accountability and all.

Lets be sure we understand what we are being sold and that it will work and not just sit in the corner wringing our hands and agreeing to anything remotely plausible while thinking any action is better than none. Wanna participate actively? Grab a thimble!

Patrick (still trying to learn how to put out a fire with larger and larger applications of gasoline)
 
/ National I.D. Card #72  
"I'll ask the question again. How would a national ID card have prevented Tim McVeigh from bombing the OK fed building?"

They forgot to mention the checkpoints he'd have had to pass through at each state and county line.
 
/ National I.D. Card #73  
National ID card? Mark of the beast? Always wondered what the impetus would be to bring that about. The book of Revelations and the prophecies come alive when we look at the happenings of recent years and compare to Revelations.
The 'thing' about the ID card is the abuse that could be wreaked with it....and it would happen. SSI was a temporary thing, that is still with us today. Natl ID card would be used as a CONTROL for society. One of the first rules of the 'salesman' is to get his foot in the door.
 
/ National I.D. Card #74  
Those are my thoughts exactly Scruffy! It's not the terrorism or the loss of freedom that scares me half as much as the relevence to revelations. I'm sure the national ID card is going to be a reality. Just look at the support for it here on this tiny thread. It will happen just like pitbull and others have said it will with regard to our loss of freedom and America as we know it. It won't stop at being just an id like your drivers license. This will be the beginning of the end of a "free" united states. My belief is that we have hit the crux of personal freedom. We have pushed the issue and pushed the issue of personal freedom and now the recent attack on America's freedom is going to succeed in the loss of the hard fought freedom of 200 plus years of this country. We want to have freedom and privacy without a price. Well there is a price and if we're not willing to pay it then we can become controlled puppets of the govt. That's what saddens me is that these guys have already won. Even if we kill every terrorist out there they've already done what they set out to do. They've set this "control monster" in place. America is seen around the world as the last great place of freedom where you can and regardless of race, creed, color, nationality you have a chance here. Well know that is no longer going to be the case. We are going to turn into a checkpoint, id, *&%^$ society just like every other foreign country if this is allowed to happen. The truth is as we all really know that you can never control a whole lot. We spend our whole lives trying to control everything but little is controlled. No don't be fooled folks if this id system makes it's way into our lives we will soon be monitored and controlled at every angle. I say don't let them win. Don't let them take away America the free, the home of the brave. If we are so brave we don't need this id system. I guess we'll see in the next few years what America is really all about.

18-35034-TRACTO~1.GIF
 
/ National I.D. Card #75  
I should 'fess up by the way - I don't really support the idea of a national ID system. To be honest the idea scares me.

What scares me even more though is the idea of mis-applying a similar notion to groups of people where it makes no sense either - such as immigrants. (But it could be any group).

Fact of the matter is - as long as there is no ID for your everyday American citizen it makes absolutely no sense to crack down on immigrants. Any immigrant with malicious intent would very easily go and forge an American birth certificate or other ID quite simply - thereby totally invalidating any immigration controls.

It's either freedom for everyone allowed in the country - or give up some of your freedom so we are all under more 'control'. There is no middle ground.

Thanks to all for the debate yesterday - it brought to surface some good points.
 
/ National I.D. Card #76  
Richard, can you see those cards being used to control purchases of gas, parts, groceries, medical care, etc? England is already talking about doing that with their proposed National ID card! Students, and others, are conciously deciding NOT to display our national flag. Why? Because they think this is a world issue (the WTC disaster), not an American issue. Shades of a one world government atmosphere? Internationally, countries are proposing that the U.N. lead the war on terrorism....the old foot in the door trick? One World Government?
The Prophecies of the Bible will sure make a person see things in a different light than what is expoused by our news and politicians!
 
/ National I.D. Card #77  
<font color=blue>The Prophecies of the Bible will sure make a person see things in a different light</font color=blue>

John 16:13


signature.JPG
 
/ National I.D. Card #78  
National ID cards would only do what countless of other laws/regulations are doing..... taking freedom from the honest and not having any effect on the criminal. Anti-drug laws don't do a thing to stop the inward flow or use of drugs. Would more laws help? Maryland just lowered the Blood Alcohol level for intoxication from 0.10 to 0.08. Is that going to stop the guy from climbing behind the wheel who has a 0.09 ? It's against the law for a felon to posess a gun of any kind in Baltimore, Yet there are always those who buy one (even though they Know Better). Lets draft a NEW LAW to make it a crime to break a law. That would show them bad guys.

More laws (restrictions) won't help. Those who are motivated to kill, hurt, steal will always do so if the law is there or not.

Steve
 
/ National I.D. Card #79  
National I.D. Card and a bit more...

Patrick (RPM), I should think as a trained engineer you would be more of an empiricist and look at similar examples to the question at hand. I know we have beat the "Gun Control" example to death lately but it is a valid comparable pre-tested issue. What gun control measures (if any) have materially affected the felonius use of firearms by persons of criminal intent? We have loads of legislation regarding gun control, what if any have materially helped reduce felonies? You may treat these questions as rhetorical if you choose and just compare them to the following.

What features of a national ID card system would actually serve to prohibit terrorist acts. I don't mean laws to make such acts really really illegal and carry grave penalties but laws that would actually stop terrorist acts or materially reduce their likelyhood. I can't think of any, can you? How do you prosecute a martyr?

I have heard a lot of wishful thinking (whistling in the dark) but nothing concrete that suggests a logically defendable position that is or should be acceptable to a free people. It isn't protecting our freedom if what we do to ourselves in the guise of protection against terrorism in the long run destroys the fabric of our unique free society worse that letting the terrorists run free. OK, a little fast and lose there, but not too far off the mark.

If I were of a particular paternalistic and elitist liberal persuasion I would be giddy with delight over the opportunities offered to further my agenda by the recent terrorist acts, the press's coverage of them, and the population's need for a quick simple solution. This is a time to be very wary indeed of anyone with a grand plan to make it all better by the next commercial message. If I wanted to demonstrate a little paranoia I'd risk musing over the convenience of the terrorist acts and their production of whole vistas of opportunity for imposing temporary or emergency measures that might serve to ratchet a few clicks forward for certain ideologies. I think as rare as it might be that this could be an actual coincidence. Nevertheless, beware the opportunist who will seize the moment to get changes made that would otherwise not stand a chance.

One of the most unpleasant arguments I have heard is the argument that, "well we have so little privacy, freedom, self determination, etc, etc that giving up the rest for a good cause should be OK". If someone steals 1/2 your stuff then you might as well give the rest to them? Victims of a previous rape should be willing to give up their right to prosecute a subsequent rapist? or volunteer to be "comfort women" for the cause since they "lost it" already anyway? I think NOT!

We face terrible decisions with inadequate information. We will never have all the information desired but will have to do the best we can with uncertainty in a precarious dynamic. This is not the time to throw our hands in the air and say, "BIG BROTHER" save me, here take my liberties and personal freedoms but protect me. The fabric of our social structure is anathma to the terrorists. We ARE the great satan, the infidels, to them. Whether they only count coup on us or try to kill our way of life, why should we rush to do any of their work for them. If we change the very warp and wuft of our social fabric, losing our freedom voluntarily or otherwise, we have helped them achieve a goal.

If we tighten our internal (especially transportation) and border security that will help, especially if we emulate the El AL example, previously cited in another post. Externally, there really isn't much of a group of targets for "bombing into the stone age" as they are basically there already with the exception of the weapons and training we gave them to fight the Russians (Soviets). This is not going to be concluded for years but we need to be willing to take the long view and not expect a quick fix. International terrorism didn't start on 9/11 and we won't stop it in time to get the troops home by Christmas.

We are almost arragant beyond bellief to suddenly leap up and demand the world to support our war against terrorism. What about their war against terrorism? Been at it for years, with how much help from us? With or without help, while we are still a super power and in a position to attempt it we should impose a logical and fair solution on any and all terrorists that we can and any of their fellow travelers and supporters. NO SAFE HAVENS,
P E R I O D. These crazies are like a virus and should be exterminated or modified to be inert. Criminal acts and those that aid and abet the perpetraters should face swift and stern punishment. To use a biological example: Any organism (country, USA) that doesn't do what is required to sustain and perpetuate itself (clean out international terrorism that constitutes a clear and present danger to the well being of the USA or its allies and friends) will become extinct. Survival of the fitest, works. Lets be the fitest. We must respond with countermeasures that sustain and protect our way of life or see its extinction.

A previous post refered to "having the belly for THIS". Of course colateral damage should be reduced as far as is practical and still ensure the desired outcome. The belly required is in my oppinion the will to go as far as is neccessary to achieve the desired end to organized, functional, and operating terrorist organizations and support structures. Are we willing to upset those who profit in any way through the continuation of the terrorist organizations? Do we have the will to see this through to the end. I am gravely concerned that we do not as a nation have that will nor the required attention span to consider anything past the next few months. The bottom line for this quarter and possibly the next is about as far as our instant gratification, jump cut trained patience can see with our terminal case of myopia. Boy do I hope to be proven wrong!


Patrick (patrickg)
 
/ National I.D. Card #80  
Re: National I.D. Card-Tatoo our Forehead?

We don't need tatoos. There are ID chips for pets and livestock that can be scanned non-invasivley after implantation. You could just walk past a reader and it would know your ID number. Think of the advantages... Don't need an ID card, credit card or anything and be instantly able to extablish who you are. To avoid having the bad guys cut off your ear lobe I suppose you could require backup confirmation by palm , finger, or retinal, or ...

Don't know if it is taken already but if you act fast you could apply for and recieve, 666.

Patrick
 

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