National I.D. Card

TWINKLE_TOES · Sep 23, 2001

This appeared on the Drudge Report
http://www.drudgereport.com/id.htm

I don't personally have a problem with this concept and was wondering how others felt.
Al

Bird · Sep 23, 2001

Any other time, I would expect tremendous opposition, but right now, I don't know. For me personally, I have no problem with it.

Bird

Harv · Sep 23, 2001

One more card in my wallet wouldn't bother me at all, and if it prevents anyone from pretending to be me (Lord knows why anyone would do that /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif), I'm all for it.

Of course, I haven't had much time to think how it could be used against me yet. Bet somebody on this board will fill in that blank. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

cp1969 · Sep 23, 2001

I'm all for a expelling non-citizens who can't demonstrate a legitimate reason for being here (and obtaining flight training is no longer a legit reason, IMHO). Send 'em home.

As far as national ID cards go, what's to keep them from being counterfeited?

ERNIEB · Sep 23, 2001

The States already issue ID cards. Every Adult is suppose to have one. If you don't. the police can throw you in the hooscow until you are identified. I don't see any purpose in them. It may help some of these scairdy cats sleep better at night, but I think they just need to enforce the law that exsists.
I have it from good sources that in Mexico, one can buy phony ID's, green cards, social security cards, ect. I'm sure they would find a way to counterfeit those too.

Ernie

Harv · Sep 24, 2001

what's to keep them from being counterfeited?

As I understand it, the card will include a digitized version of your thumbprint embedded in its data strip. Your thumbprint also becomes part of a massive database. A security station, such as might be found at airports, would include a card reader and a thumbprint scanner. The data on the card must match your actual thumbprint in order to prove that you are you.

Sounds kinda science fictiony, but the technology exists and is available for free from Oracle. Counterfeiting would be virtually impossible.

TWINKLE_TOES · Sep 24, 2001

Ernie,

I think the new card is intended to contain more positive identification other than a picture or number. The suggestion in the report was that an electronic finger print was embedded in the card or some such thing. This would allow readings of the finger print and comparision to the card to validate the person holding the card.

When I was to young to drink beer it sure wasn't a problem to get a fake I.D. and I suspect your correct, some smart folks will figure a way around most anything given enough time and money./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

Al

Anonymous Poster · Sep 24, 2001

Guys I'm against a National I.D. card. This is just another excuse for the government to erode more of our rights in the name of security. It was only 64 years ago that Adolf ****** ask his people to give up private ownership of firearms in exchange for safer streets.What it got them was enslavement from a madman. What needs to be done is for a true immigration policy that keeps illegal aliens out of the USA and keeps tabs on those on visas (this legislation was inacted in 1996 and gutted by the politicians in 2000 and then was not enforced by the INS).
Benjamin Franklin said it best when he said that " A man who would give up his liberty for security deserves neither."

Hillbilly · Sep 24, 2001

I could not at the moment see any problems.They already know more about me than I do myself. If it would help eliminate the illegals coming into this country I think it would be good.

Harv · Sep 24, 2001

another excuse for the government to erode more of our rights

This is exactly the kind of discussion I usually try to stay out of, but I feel compelled to flaunt my naivete one more time --

Exactly what rights or liberties would I be giving up by having a card that allows me to prove I'm me? /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

PBMAX · Sep 24, 2001

Sounds like they're hitting that national data base issue again.A few yrs back they were saying that if you were a criminal and went out of state to commet a crime the locals of that state could have possibly prevented a crime if they'ed known they had pulled over a known criminal over for some reson...etc...But since most law inforcement agencys don't have a linked data base,between states,the only way to find out is to run a check...Sounds to me like there just try to find a cheaper alternative...Like it or not after recent event's it may happen...Personally I'd rather se the data bases linked...It may take abit more time but who knows...
For counterfitting...Chip with print....no thanks...If IT CAN BE DONE WITH A COMPUTER IT CAN BE UNDONE WITH ONE....Look at Alabama DL for example...We have a holo gram over our license...So what...You can buy a scanner if you've got the bucks that will scan 3d images...etc...

As I've heard before...If a criminal has the Time,money,and mind to they will find a way to get what they want...It may stop the small timers but would it stop some one with real money and political backing....???

Laziness is the Father of invention.../w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Lil' Paul
Proud owner of TC21DEdited by pburns on 09/24/01 02:04 AM (server time).

PBMAX · Sep 24, 2001

Don't they have record called a visa or green cards???Instead of a card for all. How about making it more difficult to counterfit these things??? Wouldn't that make sence...?Shouldn't they already have a national data base on these folks...?Unfortunately this would probable make things more agrivating for our good nieghbors in Canada and our South of the Border friends that come to the U.S. but,wouldn't the long term effects be better for us all?

Laziness is the Father of invention.../w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Lil' Paul
Proud owner of TC21D

gws · Sep 24, 2001

And when would these federal cards be needed? To buy food? To buy gas, to cross state lines?
Who is going to be asking for them?
Hey I have a good idea, how about just tatooing the federal ID number on our arms. Its worked in the past -

Gary.

ejb · Sep 24, 2001

..Actually, on the SOFTWARE is available for free, the rest of the system I am sure will still cost billions...

Someone please explain what exactly this "National ID" card would do? How would it help to prevent the terrorists actions? It wouldn't. Just like gun control laws it only becomes a burden onthe honest person and the criminals, as always, will find away around it.

The CIA already had many of these terrorists on there watch list, and even though they used their REAL ID in many cases to get on the planes, no one noticed. If somehow we manage to link this national id database, the faa, cia, faa, the airlines etc (a HUGE undertaking that I guaranteee will NEVER work, the gov't can't even run the systems it already has). But lets pretend for a minute it does work.

Whats to prevent a terrorist with a clean background from getting on the plane? Are we going to say that people from other countries can't use our planes, even if they are here legally? of course not. What about citizens. Do you think it is impossible for bin laden (or others) to have some of his future bombers become citizens first and thus have a legitamte ID card?

OK, now lets assume that this national ID card works, bin laden can't figure out how toget fake ones, we somehow prevent non-citizens with clean records from getting a card and we manage to make sure that we don't naturalize anyone that is planning to become a suicide bomber in 5 years...so we make it completely safe to get on a plane...will that stop terrorism? NO. How will a national ID card prevent a suicide bomber from filling up a uhaul with home made explosives and driving it into the nearest nuke pant? How will a national id card prevent a terrorst from stealing a small crop-duster plane and the flying it over the superbowl or some other public place and sprinkle anthrax and/or a chemcail agent.

Agent, I submit, the national ID card will do absolutely nothing to prevent terrorsts attacks in the future...so then, what is the point? What other countries have national ID cards, and are they immune from terrorists?

ejb · Sep 24, 2001

>>Hey I have a good idea, how about just tatooing the federal ID number on our arms. Its worked in the past -

I agree, and we also know that gun control works...these same people that had numbers tatooed on them, first had their guns taken away for their own safety.

Anonymous Poster · Sep 24, 2001

Re: National I.D. Card-Tatoo our Forehead?

...how about just tatooing ...

From here on out... tatoo all babies as they are born, on the forehead... one number-one person... no more id cards... no more cards for any reason...

Sign of the devil... /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif/w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

dmccarty · Sep 24, 2001

I have a real problem with this kind of id. It does limit ones freedom. How? Look at what the Brits have proposed, the card would be required for government benefits, board a plane/train, open a bank account, buy GAS! What about food and drugs. Certainly one should have to show the card to help in the War On Drugs. Certainly to enforce our laws on booze the ID card would have to be scanned to prove that you are who you say you are to get a 6 pack. How about cashing a check? Using the credit card? That would reduce theft.

What this does is provide a data base of every citizens movements and purchases. If someone thinks that that is freedom....

And yes that is what would happen. Otherwise Ellison, the owner of Oracle and one of the richest men in the world, would not be pushing the idea. He wants the market share for his product and the more information that is kept by his product the better. It sure would be lots of info to keep but that would be good for the computer hardware companies! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Of course that would not have stopped September 11th. Its easy enough to get a false id. Look how many they are finding on the people that are being arrested because of 9/11. There was a ring of people in one of our local cities that was selling blank birth certificates. What name do you want? How old to you want to be? WHO do you want to be?

The only thing the National ID allows is the tracking of a person. Maybe. If they have multiple ids it gets kinda iffy to track them. The ID does not prevent someone from doing bad things. It does not stop someone from strapping on a bomb and walking into a pizza joint. It does not stop someone from getting a weapon on a plane/train/bus.

The card is a real bad IDea. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Later...
Dan McCarty

Bird · Sep 24, 2001

The States already issue ID cards. Every Adult is suppose to have one. If you don't. the police can throw you in the hooscow until you are identified.

?????Hmm, Ernie, I'm wondering about that. I don't know what other states do, but I never heard of the police being able to arrest anyone for not having any ID on them. Since businesses frequently want to see a driver's license or other good identification before accepting checks or credit cards and such things as that, and since some people have no driver's license and/or cannot obtain one, but still want good ID for other purposes, the Department of Public Safety will issue an ID card that looks very much like a driver's license, picture, etc. on it, but it's only issued upon the person's request (and payment of a small fee).

Texas does have the statute copied below but, as it says, it can only be used in specific cases and even then documentation is not necessarily required. Is there any kind of new law that I don't know about? On this topic, I mean, because with 900 new laws this year, there are a lot of new laws I don't know about./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

§ 38.02. Failure to Identify

(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.

(b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:

(1) lawfully arrested the person;

(2) lawfully detained the person; or

(3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.

(c) Except as provided by Subsection (d), an offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor.

(d) If it is shown on the trial of an offense under this section that the defendant was a fugitive from justice at the time of the offense, the offense is a Class B misdemeanor.

Bird

RPM · Sep 24, 2001

The irony is that immigrants are better documented than citizens. The green card carries a thumbprint plus picture plus ID information that a US passport does not. Besides, how many Americans even have a passport - it's a surprisingly low number that have ever been overseas if I recall. So then you're left with birth certificate, Social Security Card and driver's license. Not too hard to forge ...

So, how hard is it to forge US documentation and learn to speak with an American accent? I think the answer is - not that hard if you try. If a passport office in Maine was presented with a birth certificate from Texas - would they know exactly what to look for? Probably not.

So - in my opinion we could probably use a national ID system. It won't eliminate the problem of fake ID - but it will surely reduce the cost of tracking suspected terrorists. That probably means that our taxes won't have to be raised to tackle the problem.

This is a legitimate role for government - protecting the liberties of the country in a centralized manner. Now we would have to be darned sure that corporations aren't ever allowed to use this information ...

Patrick

Harv · Sep 24, 2001

the SOFTWARE is available for free, the rest of the system I am sure will still cost

I only said the technology was free. Of course there will be other costs.

the national ID card will do absolutely nothing to prevent terrorsts attacks

We're all speculating here, but I don't think anyone is claiming the cards would prevent terrorism. It would, however, provide a tool to better monitor the movements and activities of potential terrorists and other undesirables. It would also allow the authorities to better monitor my movements and activities, but somehow that just doesn't bother me. I guess we're all entitled to our personal reaction to such things.

My own feelings on this issue are strongly influenced by the father of one of my daughter's friends. He is a police detective specializing in identity theft. If you could hear the cases he deals with every day, it would give you nightmares. If a dedicated bad guy wants to pretend to be you, he simply gets ahold of your credit card number(s), your social security number, driver's license number, mother's maiden name and whatever else he can dig up. Sadly, this information is not all that difficult to obtain.

Armed with this data, the bad guy then proceeds to drain your bank accounts, over-extend your credit and generally represent themselves as you in any manner that is beneficial to them. By the time you realize there is a problem, they have done what they can and have already moved on to someone else. You are left in a position to prove that it wasn't you who instigated all those transactions. This involves detective work and legal expenses. Of course, you now have no money, so you are practically helpless to pursue your case. When and if you manage to convince the banks that it wasn't your doing, you may very well have lost your house, your car and anything else you were making payments on. In some cases, you may have even lost your job if the bad guy used your professional identity to abscond with company funds, etc.

Your recourse? Zip! Nada! Zero! Zilch! Nothing!!! You are ruined, and all you can do is start your life all over.

Remember, I am not making this up or spinning fairy tales here. Identity theft is real, and it is happening every day. To my mind, it is a less publicized, more personalized form of terrorism.

Would the embedded fingerprint national ID card prevent this? Probably not, in it's proposed form, but it is the type of technology that may eventually be necessary to save us from ourselves. /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif