My NX6010

[94BULLITT]

There is a difference with stall-guard on or off, but I never geeked out enough to find out how it works. Since this is an electrically controlled HST, without checking, I presumed that when the engine started to stall, the ECU backed off the user requested load from the forward and rearward signal sent to the HST computer even if the user continued to mash the go pedal all the way down, but I don't really know.

Kioti may have a different way of doing things.
When stall guard kicks in on my tractor the hydro sounds different.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Kioti may have a different way of doing things.
When stall guard kicks in on my tractor the hydro sounds different.

My tractor goes VVVVVVVVVvvvvvvvvrrrr stop.

<stick it in neutral, press the brake down, turn the key>

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

:laughing:

 

[ishiboo]

It's interesting how many different ideas on how hydraulic systems work there are.

At low volume, a given ram will not move under a given load because the relief opens before enough volume of fluid can develop to overcome the load.

Not true at all. Volume (GPM = flow) does not matter. The lifting capability of the ram, and the functionality of the relief are governed solely by the pressure. But the lower the flow, the slower it will be. To have the relief open, the set pressure of the relief has to be met... if it's capable of getting there, it's capable of moving the load.

This is one of the most basic concepts of physics.

A .05GPM source of 3000PSI will lift the same load with the same cylinder as a 30GPM source at 3000PSI. It will just take MUCH longer. This is pretty simple, and compares via the law of the conservation of energy of RPM vs torque, volts vs amps, etc.

A certain input RPM does not guarantee the pump will be able to build that pressure though, depending on the pump design... but for our purposes...

That said, 94BULLITT, where did the 14.9hp spec come from? If true, I should have maximum lift at idle, but I don't. I do not doubt your sincerity, but that number cannot be right. If my tractor only needs 14.9 horsepower to generate maximum pressure and maximum flow in an open center system under maximum load is really true, then 25hp subcompact tractors should have monster lift specs, and I and everybody else have been taken.

Pump GPM is proportionate to input RPM, it won't produce the rated flow at a lower RPM than designed. At X GPM and Y PSI, you can find a specific horsepower number required for the input to maintain that output.

A 1/2HP 12vdc hydraulic pump is capable of lifting the same thing as your tractor. It will just take much longer.

Physics come into play. A loader on your example 25hp tractor will flip the tractor over before it lifts 4000 lbs, so it is designed to lift what it can lift efficiently, and not for the maximum lift.

With the engine revved up, the loader maxed, the engine stays revving and the hydro goes to relief. The HST, pump can stall the engine when under a load and combos of the HST pump and load on the loader can and does stall the engine even with anti-stall switched on (a feature, I've never puzzled out what it tries to do).

The HST is a variable displacement pump type, there is not a relief that regulates pressure like the pump for the loader/3 point/remotes/etc... at least not in the circuit with the motor/pump, and at least not before it consumes all available power. That's why it can stall the engine. Don't think of it as a simple open center hydraulic system like used for the loader, where you could direct 100% of the flow through a hydraulic motor, lock it up and have the pressure hit the relief and everything goes on as planned Think of it more as a closed center pump connected directly to a motor - the input to the pump is directly the output of the motor and vice versa. Lock up the motor and the pump will stop (unless something gives first!)

The working HP of the system does not mean it cannot produce a load on the engine greater than that and stall the engine. The HST can and will take up 100% of the power the engine puts out.

The control for a Kubota or Kioti HST is the same - the swash plates, whether that is done mechanically or electronically to accomplish the goal and features, it doesn't much matter.

 

[ishiboo]

The stall guard on Kubotas opens the swash plates to keep the engine from stalling. The tractor accelerates faster with it on, pulls hills better, and it kicks in under a heavy load like while grading or digging wit the loader, improving performance. I was going up a steep hill in High range and turned stall guard off and the tractor dropped 2MPH instantly.

That's not simply the swash plates then. Your foot on the pedal directly (or indirectly if electronic) controls them, "opening" them would be equivalent to you letting off the pedal.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

It's interesting how many different ideas on how hydraulic systems work there are.



Not true at all. Volume (GPM = flow) does not matter. The lifting capability of the ram, and the functionality of the relief are governed solely by the pressure. But the lower the flow, the slower it will be. To have the relief open, the set pressure of the relief has to be met... if it's capable of getting there, it's capable of moving the load.

This is one of the most basic concepts of physics.

A .05GPM source of 3000PSI will lift the same load with the same cylinder as a 30GPM source at 3000PSI. It will just take MUCH longer. This is pretty simple, and compares via the law of the conservation of energy of RPM vs torque, volts vs amps, etc.

A certain input RPM does not guarantee the pump will be able to build that pressure though, depending on the pump design... but for our purposes...



Pump GPM is proportionate to input RPM, it won't produce the rated flow at a lower RPM than designed. At X GPM and Y PSI, you can find a specific horsepower number required for the input to maintain that output.

A 1/2HP 12vdc hydraulic pump is capable of lifting the same thing as your tractor. It will just take much longer.

Physics come into play. A loader on your example 25hp tractor will flip the tractor over before it lifts 4000 lbs, so it is designed to lift what it can lift efficiently, and not for the maximum lift.



The HST is a variable displacement pump type, there is not a relief that regulates pressure like the pump for the loader/3 point/remotes/etc... at least not in the circuit with the motor/pump, and at least not before it consumes all available power. That's why it can stall the engine. Don't think of it as a simple open center hydraulic system like used for the loader, where you could direct 100% of the flow through a hydraulic motor, lock it up and have the pressure hit the relief and everything goes on as planned Think of it more as a closed center pump connected directly to a motor - the input to the pump is directly the output of the motor and vice versa. Lock up the motor and the pump will stop (unless something gives first!)

The working HP of the system does not mean it cannot produce a load on the engine greater than that and stall the engine. The HST can and will take up 100% of the power the engine puts out.

The control for a Kubota or Kioti HST is the same - the swash plates, whether that is done mechanically or electronically to accomplish the goal and features, it doesn't much matter.

Please be forgiving of me for not presenting things clearly. Fluid moving has lower pressure than static fluid. We know that our arms can slowly pump a 40 ton bottle jack. The issue then is higher horsepower allows more fluid to flow thereby allowing the operator to work faster.

I can certainly understand how you understood that I was speaking about relief on the HST side from my remark, "The basic take-away is that higher flowing fluid has lower pressure than slower moving pressure and so more work can be done before going to relief." Although I was not clear the relief I'm speaking about is on the hydro side, not on the HST side. The context here is the video I made and posted where the wheels are still spinning and the loader has sent the hydro system to relief.

Thank you for your remarks as they serve to clarify since I did not make myself clear.

 

[94BULLITT]

Eric, I made a quick video so you can see how a compact with 44hp works

 

[94BULLITT]

Eric, I made a quick video so you can see how a compact with 44hp works

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Eric, I made a quick video so you can see how a compact with 44hp works

I had to be careful about lifting the rear end off of the ground when I drove into the material in the video I made. And then, if I didn't throttle up and I left the throttle matching feature on (which I always do), the tractor would bog down or conk out when I drove into my pile of sphagnum top soil I scraped off of my clearing. As you can see, the material doesn't even want to fall out of my dump trailer, let alone allow itself to get scooped up.

My tractor also bogs down while pushing a blade unless I throttle it up too.

Maybe Kapper can share his thoughts on a comparison between his 66hp John Deere 4720 and his NX6010 since he uses both?

 

[MinnesotaEric]

This is the Donaldson safety filter number if you want to add it also.

P829332

Thanks. I just remembered to order the safety filter through Amazon.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

I did an ad hoc 200 hour review of my NX6010.

 

[kapper]

Maybe Kapper can share his thoughts on a comparison between his 66hp John Deere 4720 and his NX6010 since he uses both?[/QUOTE]

Ahhh yes, the Deere vs. Kioti. I WILL make a comparison video, but probably this winter when I'm down more. As of right now I'm liking the Kioti better. I never thought I would say that, but I am. I've got about 150 hrs on the Kioti, and almost 500 on the Deere. I've done virtually any project you could dream up with both units. If that dang Kioti didn't have that transmission 'lag,' it would be crushing the Deere! But even with that, it is working better than the Deere! Of course, if I tag out a nice buck early with my bow I will have more time to make the video. For any newcomers, please feel free to check out my videos on youtube. My channel is; Kapitany7.

 

[ishiboo]

I did an ad hoc 200 hour review of my NX6010.

Glad to know things overall are going well for you. I don't have the gate issue, but I do have trouble getting into the gears from neutral rather often. I loaded some concrete slabs last week and found that I'm very happy with the strength of the loader.

One thing I'm curious about - do you ever regret buying a tractor instead of a CTL or skid loader?

Having both, I much prefer my tractor because I use the PTO a lot with a tiller/mower/etc., work large areas of dirt in fields, lift equipment/pallets/etc. with the loader when I get in/out of the machine with the load in the air, etc. It seems much of what you do though would be best done with a skid loader, not just this particular video.

BTW - next month once I have all the safety functionality worked out, I will demo my fender-mount inching/creep switch for the hitch. Making it work is incredibly simple, but I've added a micro controller which verifies throttle position is idle, transmission is in low, etc. as well as some protection stuff.

 

[IslandTractor]

I did an ad hoc 200 hour review of my NX6010.

I'm surprised to hear of your transmission issue. Most of us have a bit of trouble getting the range selector into midrange occasionally but I've never heard of anyone else having the transmission pop into neutral. As you mentioned, that is not an inconvenience but rather a real safety hazard especially for those who work on hills or slopes. Seems to me you are still under warranty so that should be dealt with.

I had read earlier of your issues with the fuel tank and cap but hadn't really paid attention to what a vulnerable spot Kioti moved it to. Rather shockingly exposed. On the DX the tank and fuel fill are just in front of the dashboard so extremely well protected. Cannot for the life of me figure out why Kioti would put it right next to the front wheel and leave it unprotected from brush. My old CK20 had the tank mounted behind the seat. Even that would make more sense.

By the way, while I understand you were doing an ad hoc casual review as you walked around the tractor, the camera jiggling so much makes it hard to watch. I actually got motion sick and had to take a break. You might want to use a tripod and just edit out some of the movement.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

As a follow-up, my dealer's service manager called me back today.

There aren't any technical service bulletins addressing the shifting problems and my dealer hasn't had any comeback in any tractor with a shift gate issue.

My context is that I'm three hours away from my dealer and my service manager and I are both former auto techs.

With that in mind after a description of what was taking place, Rick, the service manager, suggested two things, one of which I'll check, but don't expect to be the cause of the problem since I've popped out of gear into neutral with only the tractor weight itself as a load when just trying to take off. Anyway, Rick suggested that the rubber-mounted cab may be flexing under load. The tractor has popped out of medium to neutral only going forward insofar as I remember. Rick wanted to know if I was popping into neutral between the medium and low neutral or the medium and high neutral. Trouble for me is that the shift lever in the cab isn't moving when it does pop out of gear, but I was tracking with his idea immediately as popping out of low gear, the linkage could be bumping forward as it cannot move further backward. The idea with a cab flexing could explain the low gear pop, but not the medium gear popping, but it the linkage is moving the same direction popping out of low and medium, that is in the sleuthing business, what we call a clue!

The second idea is that the shift linkage is somehow too long or too short. I need to look at the spec and confirm adjustment but also look at where the index for the gear is relative to the lever in the cab and the cutout in the plastic cover for that lever to make sure I'm not bottoming on the plastic in low before the transmission gate "indexes."

I'll check and confirm adjustment when I do my next engine oil service which is coming up quickly.

<time passes looking through the service manual>

Diagnosis wise the issue is that I'm not keen on attempting to replicate the problem as it cannot be good on the shift forks or gears. I've also been unable to locate a spec for adjustment in the service manual. From the exploded diagram, it appears on the HST machine there is only one place that the linkage can be adjusted (the diagram shows the gear range shifter that my machine lacks). I'll need to look at this further before confirming adjustment so I know what I'm looking at as it appears this is one of those things, techs are just supposed to "know" which it to say, I'll adjust it just like I would a car or truck. The only detail directions I found on the linkage itself was where to disconnect it if the cab is getting pulled off.

Kapper may find the next three pages of interest, as they explain why the delay between forward and reverse exists. As well as how to adjust the HST pedals (I've been pouring over the manual).

 

[IslandTractor]

How about you give a call to Kioti technical support (or have the dealer do it)? This is pretty obviously not a common problem (first I have heard of ANY Kioti pop out of gear) so individual dealers really may have never dealt with it.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Glad to know things overall are going well for you. I don't have the gate issue, but I do have trouble getting into the gears from neutral rather often. I loaded some concrete slabs last week and found that I'm very happy with the strength of the loader.

One thing I'm curious about - do you ever regret buying a tractor instead of a CTL or skid loader?

Having both, I much prefer my tractor because I use the PTO a lot with a tiller/mower/etc., work large areas of dirt in fields, lift equipment/pallets/etc. with the loader when I get in/out of the machine with the load in the air, etc. It seems much of what you do though would be best done with a skid loader, not just this particular video.

BTW - next month once I have all the safety functionality worked out, I will demo my fender-mount inching/creep switch for the hitch. Making it work is incredibly simple, but I've added a micro controller which verifies throttle position is idle, transmission is in low, etc. as well as some protection stuff.

I've been forgiving of the transmission shift gating issue as I attributed the shift gate problem to break-in teething. I looked at the linkage when I swapped out the Mid-PTO, found nothing wrong with it, and gave it a pass with only 135 hours on the machine at the time. Now that I've had one of these tractors for awhile, it would be great to have a synchronized low, medium and high range for buttery shifting goodness--especially since Kioti's parent company is a gear maker among their many things they do!

Tractor wise, I'd love to have an mini-excavator, a small track loader, A midsize wheel loader, and a 12 yard dump and 32' triple axle trailer to lug it all around on in addition to what I have. But I don't so my Kioti must take up the slack and work harder!

What I do regret is that I should have purchased a 24' trailer instead of the 20' trailer that I fiddle around with way too much loading stuff.

<photo shot before leashing down the loader>

 

[MinnesotaEric]

How about you give a call to Kioti technical support (or have the dealer do it)? This is pretty obviously not a common problem (first I have heard of ANY Kioti pop out of gear) so individual dealers really may have never dealt with it.

I'm back in the city right now getting the house cleaned to list it on my local MLS next week while my 89-year-old-mother is left alone in the woods (not a good thing). Not only that, but I received bad, bad news about inoperable chronic neck and back pain today. While tractors and all things tractors are almost always the high nail on this forum, right now in the context of my life, the transmission isn't my high nail. I'll change the oil, check and adjust the linkage, and confirm or deny the cab is flexing the linkage somehow (I doubt it) before loading it onto a trailer and hauling it 150 miles for a problem that may be difficult to duplicate.

BTW, the fuel tank's biggest problem is an unguarded fuel line coming out of the tank on the bottom that runs axially, parallel to the ground, and is designed to get ripped off by just about anything that can reach up and grab it. The good news is that after any number of failed tries, I learned how to repair polyethylene fuel tanks and now, so does the internet via YouTube. :laughing:

 

[Threepoint]

Eric, thanks for the 200 hr. review. I only have 108 hrs on my NX4510HST cab, but so far I haven't had the problem with the transmission popping into neutral. Hope you can get to the bottom of it. Sounds like you and the service manager are on the case!

Too bad about about the busted rear fenders. I agree with you that Kioti should consider modifyng the fender design on the NX6010 to make sure a Cat 2 mono-frame quick hitch will clear when hiked to full up and rolled forward. Same issue on the NX5510, which has the same Cat 2 3pt setup. Not so much a problem on my NX4510, or the NX5010, since folks are unlikely to try to use a Cat 2 quick hitch there. Ironically, just a few weeks ago I was experimenting with my top 'n tilt adjustments with a box blade on my Cat 1 Harbor Freight quick hitch, and realized that I would have just wiped out my fenders if my quick hitch had been a Cat 2.

Also agree that the hood latch release could be a bit more user-friendly. I had to adjust mine slightly so that it latched and unlatched more easily. If you don't close the hood forcefully enough, it can later pop up unexpectedly, which is always good for a shock. Once fully latched, the trick to opening it without a struggle is to press down hard on the hood with one hand while pulling the lever with the other. A longer lever would help, but then that would be something else to snag on brush.

Thanks also for posting those pages of the shop manual. I was surprised to read in sec. 4.4 {"Bleeding Air from HST Component") that failure to go through the steps they describe for bleeding air following a change of hydraulic oil and filters can result in damage to the HST components. I just looked and can find no comparable warning in the owner's manual! When I did my 50 hr service, and of course changed the hydraulic oil, HST and hydraulic filters, that would have been nice to know. Fortunately, as soon as I noticed my FEL was not responding correctly right after the service, I figured it had to be air in the system. I jacked the front end off the floor and turned the wheels right and left to the stops and that fortunately did the trick. The procedure in the shop manual is a bit more involved.

 

[Threepoint]

I'm back in the city right now getting the house cleaned to list it on my local MLS next week while my 89-year-old-mother is left alone in the woods (not a good thing). Not only that, but I received bad, bad news about inoperable chronic neck and back pain today.
[snip]

Hope your sister can check in on your mom. Ouch, sorry to hear about the medical news. Are you still planning to swap out the factory seat for that fancy air-cushion model you bought a few months back?

 

[IslandTractor]

Sorry to hear about your back/neck issues. Hope it doesn't keep you off the tractor.