Motorcycle fatalities with/out helmets?

[SensibleNick]

The point of the article was that mandatory helmet laws DID NOT save lives. As I remember the article they used miles ridden as part of the comparison between states.

While "number of miles ridden" doesn't feature, the percentage of crashes that resulted in brain damage or fatality seems highly relevant.

The researchers found that states without universal helmet laws reported a higher number of motorcycle crash victims hospitalized with a primary diagnosis of brain injuries: 16.5 percent versus 11.5 percent in states with mandatory use laws. The in-hospital death rate among states without mandatory helmet laws was also higher - 11.3 percent versus 8.8 percent.

Taken from Here: Study Hits States Without Helmet Laws

Findings of study
If you crash: You are less likely to be hospitalised if you're wearing a helmet.
If you crash: you are more likely to die as a result of your injuries if you don't wear a helmet.

I'd rather my statistics weren't diluted with other factors. Let's stick to "Crash with Helmet" Vs "Crash witout helmet"

"Analyzing injuries by state, we found that patients from states that do not have universal helmet laws had a 41 percent increase in risk of a Type 1 traumatic brain injury. Type 1 brain injuries include head injures likely to result in permanent disability, including paralysis, persistent vegetative state, and severe cognitive deficits.

You're not legally required to wear helmets in wheelchairs either

 

[Yankee]

Dale Earnhardt Sr. ... basilar skull fracture: The very thing the HANS system was meant to stop: Absurd. HANS systems are now mandatory in many motorsports - NASCAR included.
...
However... That aside, I mainly wrote to congratulate you on your apparent ability to see and hear clearly with a 50mph wind in your face. :thumbsup:

I find that whatever sunglasses I wear, I end up with tears streaming past my ears - ears which are deafened by the roar of the wind. I also find myself mildly distracted by 70mph bugs and stones.

Pop my helmet on though, and the wind noise is massively reduced, and my field of vision is un-hindered, and stones are no longer a worry.

Besides... I don't really like soup.

Let me know when someone comes up with a HANS equivalent for bikes. Somehow I don't think a helmet qualifies. The Euros flirted briefly with motorcycle airbags, but that didn't seem to work out.

You need better glasses. FWIW, I found years ago that glasses that are open at the sides (not wrap-arounds) but still have a good fit at the bridge of the nose work best to reduce tearing. It seems to reduce that air squirting effect you get right into your eyes with some glasses, at the expense of exposure to some additional dust. Give it a try. Traditional Ray-Ban Wayfarers work well for me in terms of fit and effectiveness, plus they fold flat, which is a nice side benefit. Big and flat, if not exactly stylish.

Finally, let us not forget that the proximal cause of motorcycling accidents is first and foremost motocycling itself (and the same sort of argument may be made for the dear departed Dale). If you give government the ability to mandate helmets on the basis of the public good, its just as easy to make the argument to ban riding.

IF I actually had a choice, I'd choose a military bump cap (the type used by on-deck carrier crews), along with a full, noise-cancelling headset with bilateral mics that would yield perfect hearing. The authorities, in their infinite wisdom and concern for my health, will allow neither one.

 

[SensibleNick]

Let me know when someone comes up with a HANS equivalent for bikes.

Fair point, but not one that I was contesting.

The intended point was that - faced with a device that would have saved his life - Dale Sr. refused to use it, and died from an injury that it would have prevented.

A lot of people see helmets the same way, and *a lot of lives would be saved if they wore them.
*supported by research

Still each to their own. The only time I think someone has an obligation to wear a helmet is if they don't have a family member who's more than happy to spoon-feed them for the rest of their lives - should the need arise.

The chance is tiny... but people still win the lottery from time to time.

 

[oldnslo]

Some one is in the process of trying to do a study similar to the "Hurt" project done years ago. For the life of me I can't remember who is doing this but here is what I was told the study is going to try and do.

1) Look at accidents per miles driven. I.e. people that only ride 5 miles per day vs those that ride 500 miles per day.

2) Look at injuries sustained Vs speed traveling at time of accident.

3) Look at gear worn vs injuries.

4) Look at age and years of riding experience and total miles ridden of those involved in accidents.

5) Look at years and miles ridden on the bike involved in the accident.

6) Look at did the rider do anything to avoid the accident. I.e. swerve, brake, etc.


I don't believe this is an attempt to try and prove helmets, gear, etc should be mandatory but more an attempt to try and educate people on who is in danger and what to do about it. Example: Rider with 20 years of experience covering 20K miles per year is more likely to have an accident on a new to him bike Vs one he has ridden for 2 or more years.

As An MSF Instructor living in a state with no helmet laws we see both sides of the argument.

Now if you really want to start an argument " Loud Pipes save Lives"

Roy

 

[SensibleNick]

Now if you really want to start an argument " Loud Pipes save Lives"

No argument from me: I'm in full support of that one

/Nick
and his XR650
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bKlNAS5Jtnk/S78jBfGCQKI/AAAAAAAACB8/AdZDTE6rf8I/s912/IMG_6583-1.JPG

 

[Yankee]

No argument from me: I'm in full support of that one

/Nick
and his XR650
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bKlNAS5Jtnk/S78jBfGCQKI/AAAAAAAACB8/AdZDTE6rf8I/s912/IMG_6583-1.JPG

Nick - we agree!

 

[SensibleNick]

Nick - we agree!

Marvellous I think that calls for another beer

 

[Dargo]

Having worked at a race track where there were monthly motorcycle races, I have to disagree with the comments regarding survival over 50mph. All competitors were required to wear full leathers, boots, gloves and helmet, and despite multiple pileups every race day, some at over 130mph there were few fatalities. I shudder to think of the carnage if they had been dressed like the typical Harley rider.

I agree completely after having raced motocross for several years. Anyone can give any statistic they want, but the fact that you're reading this is absolute proof that helmets save lives. Twice I was involved in such violent crashes that my helmet was completely shattered with only the padding keeping it together. Some may say that the helmet was defective. That is incorrect. I donated my first helmet to Bell in exchange for 2 new helmets. They studied my helmet and came to the inescapable conclusion that the helmet absorbed impacts for in excess of what a human skull would survive and it's own destruction was part of it dissipating the energy over a larger area, thus protecting my head. No guesswork there, just fact.

You also can't compare California motorcycle statistics with any other state. This time tomorrow I'll be driving through San Francisco and across the Bay Bridge on the way to Napa. I'll see dozens of motorcycle riders "lane split" with some likely clipping my side mirrors. These people are complete and total morons with an undeniable death wish. Cutting between two cars at 80 mph on a crowded highway on a motorcycle is nothing but pure stupidity in action. If I happen to sneeze, cough, scratch my leg, answer my cell phone, etc., when they are cutting between me and the car in the lane next to me, they are dead; plain and simple. With constant traffic running that speed bumper to bumper, the motorcycle rider will be run over and obliterated by several vehicles before they come to a stop.

In the last 5 years I've seen more dead motorcycle riders on the highways of California due to "lane splitting" than I've ever seen in my entire life. Helmets will do them no good. They need a brain inside that helmet. Literally, if I so opted, I could easily kill a motorcycle rider in California tomorrow and not do a thing wrong. All I have to do is slightly move to one side or another within my lane as some idiot runs between cars moving 10 mph as they run between them on the lane divider at 80 mph. You must, therefore, throw out any statistic from California when it comes to motorcycle deaths. I think California uses motorcycles as population control devices.

 

[Dargo]

Now if you really want to start an argument " Loud Pipes save Lives"

Roy

Vance & Hines has done more to promote more hatred toward Narley Ferguson riders and the general public than any other single company. No, I don't have anything but the stock pipes on my 2004 Harley Heritage Softail Classic. It's an "okay" bike. However, IMHO, put loud pipes on it and it sounds like a late 1970's Briggs & Stratton lawn mower that needs a tune up and a a muffler.

 

[DK35vince]

Wear a helmet and leave the mufflers ON..

 

[turbo36]

Dale Earnhardt Sr. used to argue about "theoretical benefits" of the HANS device, and spurned it - causing other NASCAR drivers to do the same.
He died from a basilar skull fracture: The very thing the HANS system was meant to stop: Absurd. HANS systems are now mandatory in many motorsports - NASCAR included.

The "fraction of circumstances" are the crashes where a helmet definitely saved a life. There are however many cases where a helmet wearer has bounced their head off the ground, and got up instantly to punch the driver that caused it. I suppose that if their lower lip had been hanging a few inches below their chins and they were scrabbling on the ground trying to find their teeth, maybe the drivers wouldn't have got a beating.


However... That aside, I mainly wrote to congratulate you on your apparent ability to see and hear clearly with a 50mph wind in your face. :thumbsup:

I find that whatever sunglasses I wear, I end up with tears streaming past my ears - ears which are deafened by the roar of the wind. I also find myself mildly distracted by 70mph bugs and stones.

Pop my helmet on though, and the wind noise is massively reduced, and my field of vision is un-hindered, and stones are no longer a worry.

Besides... I don't really like soup.

Stop it right now! Sensible arguments have no place in this forum!:laughing:

 

[Dargo]

Wear a helmet and leave the mufflers ON..

You're in trouble now. You're too reasonable!

 

[Skyco]

I was gonna stay out of this thread
I once fell at 5 mph when I slid on some mud pulling out onto a paved road.
Really hurt my pride.
Jumped up, checked the bike, an SV650, and went on my way.
Later back at home I was astounded to see a nice scrape on my helmet.
I wasn't even aware my head had hit the ground.
I can guarantee I would have been VERY aware if I'd not had the helmet on.
Or maybe not if the impact knocked me out.

I am firmly in the camp of always wear a helmet. They don't bother me at all.
Loud pipes bother me a lot...nothing has done more to turn the non-riding public against bikes. Don't even get me started on jake brakes and big rigs with straight pipes...as far as I'm concerned the noise laws need a lot more enforcement and massive fines.

 

[wroughtn_harv]

I wear a helmet. I also insist that those I care about wear a helmet.

I've broken two helmets, chipped a couple of others up pretty bad too.

The first one was an open faced Bell that ended up with a split running up the back. I ended up waking up forty five miles later in an emergency room. And endo in the desert at seventy or so can do that to you. It also broke eighteen spokes out of the rear wheel, everything on the handlebars, and ruined the forks.

The second one was broken on the half mile in what we called then a Superstock at the old Corona Raceway in Corona California. I woke up with them trying to get a couple of cars off of mine to get to me.

I've had my bell rang way too many times which I now believe they think is a bad thing. But without that open faced Bell in 1970 or that full faced helmet back in 1978 I wouldn't be here today.

You don't need a helmet unless you're in a crash. If you know when and how you're going to crash then you're luckier than the rest of us.

 

[The Haymaker]

As one doctor told me.."wearing helmet or not speeds 50mph plus only decide open or close coffin" hmmmm.

Yes and no, depends on the circumstances. I LOVE riding without a brain bucket, but have decided to choose life. I firmly believe my helmet (now shattered and hanging with a set of well worn crutches on my shop wall) saved my life in my 70mph crash.


Don't try to use a dirtbike as a farm implement!

 

[Matt_Jr]

I am one of those that hates being told what to do. I hate being told by my state that I HAVE to wear a helmet. I don't always wear one on my 4 wheeler. If I'm riding on my gravel road at a top speed of 20, I don't wear a helmet. I could get into trouble for this stupid law. But if I'm riding for fun in the woods I do because I do some riskier stuff. But on my road bike(Buell XB12X) I wouldn't think of riding without a full face helmet. On my Goldwings, which I don't have anymore, I use to ride with a half, or 3/4 helmet, because the windshield was protection enough. But after seeing pictures of people without a full face survive some gruesome stuff.. only full face helmets now. Oh, and that over 50MPH crap is just that, crap. I might be wrong, but I would bet that more people survive crashes over 50 than don't. That helmet just helps improve the chances of a better quality of life afterward.

Oh yeah.. and about loud pipes saving lives... I don't need 'em 'cause I'm smart enough to use the horn.

 

[Thomas]

Haymaker.
Also have my crutches for reminder.

Most will say.."You will go down,its how you go down"

 

[Dargo]

Don't try to use a dirtbike as a farm implement!

Dang! And I thought casing it while trying to do three whoops rather than two was a really, really bad way to move dirt. That just squirted some of that lovely jell stuff out of two discs in my back and made me want to cry like a girl (cause my bike sort of broke in half and it really, really hurt). I promise I'll never try to move a round bale except with a tractor with a spear on the FEL. Yours was much, much worse and much more recent. I'm sure you're probably been told, but it is really possible that you'll heal up just fine....for a while. Then those injured places seem to become arthritic. Hopefully yours don't. Looks like you got a lot more pain and suffering than I did!

 

[The Haymaker]

Dang! And I thought casing it while trying to do three whoops rather than two was a really, really bad way to move dirt. That just squirted some of that lovely jell stuff out of two discs in my back and made me want to cry like a girl (cause my bike sort of broke in half and it really, really hurt). I promise I'll never try to move a round bale except with a tractor with a spear on the FEL. Yours was much, much worse and much more recent. I'm sure you're probably been told, but it is really possible that you'll heal up just fine....for a while. Then those injured places seem to become arthritic. Hopefully yours don't. Looks like you got a lot more pain and suffering than I did!

It was a bad ride, for sure. Crazy *** dumb mistake on my part. It wasn't there the weekend before! One of these pics shows how far I moved it and the other shows a little of bike.

While I will say if I was lucky, I'd have been three feet to the left instead of three feet to the right, I was lucky in the fact that the injuries the x-rays show were my only ones. Rattled my brain pretty hard even with the helmet. I saw all straight lines (such as a wall ceiling junction) in an "X" pattern for a month and had memory issues for quite some time. I lost a lot of things from the 5 years prior. Very weird. Anyone that says "you're gonna feel that when you get older" gets the answer "I consider myself lucky I'm getting older"!

No real aches and pains yet. It's been 8 years come summer. I started leading my "normal" life 10 months after the lesson on Newtons Laws. It took a few years before I could say I was "back". I started riding in less than 12 months. I'm doing everything I was doing prior to the crash and would get p.o.'d any time someone told me I'd be less than 100%

Anyway, I still bauble around without a helmet on a quad or on the street bike, but the vast majority of my riding has my head covered. No one will ever convince me helmets don't work, just as I'll never be convinced that the battle cry of "loud pipes save lives" is nothing more than a way for those who don't understand defensive driving to get themselves smeared under the front bumper of some ignoramus driving a Volvo.

Of course, gotta include a short vid of me a few weekends ago on the resurrected 650R. That is one tough bike!

 

[SensibleNick]

OUCH!!!! it hurts to see the forks like that!!!

Until I found out that you weren't serious, I was looking for the photos my missus took of me using my XR650 as a towing device... with a small front pinion and a massive rear cog I used it to tow large branches for a year!

Spent most of my time on the back wheel, but to be fair that's hardly different from the norm