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MikeFromVA
Silver Member
Bandit - My Case dealer is charging $17,500 for the same setup that you paid $13,400 for - go figure? It looks like a pretty nice tractor but it soundslike they don't have too many in my area yet.
More tractor buying advice.
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Bob_Skurka
Super Member
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Hi Bob!
The L2800/3400 tractors are in the price range of some of the other machines offered here, but offer a larger machine with a full cat.-1 hitch and Kubota qulality. I don't know if he wants hst or anything else that the other tractors might offer (live PTO, air conditioning, dancing girls, etc.) but I think that these Kubotas go largely unnoticed. Whether this is due to the fact that they are new for this year or because the dealers don't push them (had a dealer actually tell me they weren't made anymore...Sheesh!) 'cause they don't make enough on them isn't clear to me. Being practical, I'll often choose a stripped 1-ton truck over a 1/2 ton with cruise control and a 6 cd changer for the same money. Plus, it sounds like he has the room for a slightly larger machine. )</font>
Fair enough, now I see where you are coming from.
The L2800/3400 tractors are in the price range of some of the other machines offered here, but offer a larger machine with a full cat.-1 hitch and Kubota qulality. I don't know if he wants hst or anything else that the other tractors might offer (live PTO, air conditioning, dancing girls, etc.) but I think that these Kubotas go largely unnoticed. Whether this is due to the fact that they are new for this year or because the dealers don't push them (had a dealer actually tell me they weren't made anymore...Sheesh!) 'cause they don't make enough on them isn't clear to me. Being practical, I'll often choose a stripped 1-ton truck over a 1/2 ton with cruise control and a 6 cd changer for the same money. Plus, it sounds like he has the room for a slightly larger machine. )</font>
Fair enough, now I see where you are coming from.
bandit67
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- 2012 B3000 HSDCC 2020 Z251 Zero Turn
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Bandit - My Case dealer is charging $17,500 for the same setup that you paid $13,400 for - go figure? It looks like a pretty nice tractor but it soundslike they don't have too many in my area yet. )</font>
Wow! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
I wonder if my dealer would be willing to ship one to you - even at around $1000 for shipping, you'd still be saving 3 grand over your local dealer- geez! Guess that puts the Case out of the running for you.
Wow! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
I wonder if my dealer would be willing to ship one to you - even at around $1000 for shipping, you'd still be saving 3 grand over your local dealer- geez! Guess that puts the Case out of the running for you.
familyman
Platinum Member
I'd like to add, Bob, that the more I use my machine, the smaller it gets. That's not to say I feel undergunned -- to the contrary, the L2800 fits my needs perfectly. I am saying that each time I pull down a big tree (having done some cutting first, of course), dig up a stump or move logs/earth/stone etc., I'm relieved that I didn't go with the B7800 or JD4110 that I first considered. They're fine machines too, but I like having some size and sturdiness in reserve.
Charley
Charley
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MikeFromVA
Silver Member
I'm looking hard at the MF GC2300 and it has raised some questions...
1. What is the difference between an engine that's rated at 22.5 HP @ 2600 RPM (MF) and one thats 22.5 HP @ 3000 RPM (Deere)? Their dispacement is 68.5 vs 61.4. Does that mean that the MF is actually stronger than the Deere?
2. How important is the pump output of the hydraulics? I realize that it only matters for loaders and other implements that don't use PTO, but should I care if one is 5.5 GPM and another is 6.1?
3. Some SCUTs call their 3 pt hitch a LIMITED Cat 1 while others just say it's a Cat 1. What makes one "limited" and not another? Is it the weight capacity? The measurements? I'm wondering if they are all the same but one dealer is being more upfront about the limitations of the SCUT.
The MF GC2300 looks like it bests the Deere in most categories. I will be test driving one on Friday. Are they about the same as far as reliability goes?
I don't get too much from my 5 minute test drives (the tractors have no mowers or FELs). What should I be looking for during the time?
1. What is the difference between an engine that's rated at 22.5 HP @ 2600 RPM (MF) and one thats 22.5 HP @ 3000 RPM (Deere)? Their dispacement is 68.5 vs 61.4. Does that mean that the MF is actually stronger than the Deere?
2. How important is the pump output of the hydraulics? I realize that it only matters for loaders and other implements that don't use PTO, but should I care if one is 5.5 GPM and another is 6.1?
3. Some SCUTs call their 3 pt hitch a LIMITED Cat 1 while others just say it's a Cat 1. What makes one "limited" and not another? Is it the weight capacity? The measurements? I'm wondering if they are all the same but one dealer is being more upfront about the limitations of the SCUT.
The MF GC2300 looks like it bests the Deere in most categories. I will be test driving one on Friday. Are they about the same as far as reliability goes?
I don't get too much from my 5 minute test drives (the tractors have no mowers or FELs). What should I be looking for during the time?
familyman
Platinum Member
"There's no replacement for displacement."
That old saying goes back to the 60's (?) when street and drag racing successfully usually meant a big block motor. Nowadays', the dopey kids with their hats on sideways "race" around in little rollerskates with motors under 200ci displacement. To get these toys moving, they have to rev the p!$$ out of the motors -- high rpm's is the only way they make power.
Having said that, the smaller of the two motors you describe can make up for its' lesser displacement in one of two ways: 1) increase the compression, which has a number of drawbacks, or 2) design the intake/exhaust/valve timing/injection to make power up higher in the rpm range, in this case 400rpm higher.
The tractor maker who used the smaller engine probably did it for reasons of economy and/or profit which would bore you more than the rest of this post. Yes, for tractor use, an engine with its' power lower in the rpm scale would be more user friendly.
The hydraulic pump output is important for running any implements (fel, phd, bh etc.) Here bigger is better.
The same applies to limited cat.1 vs. cat.1. I've seen too many posts where s-cut owners complain that their limited 3ph gave them problems mounting or using a phd or other implement.
I hope this helps.
Charley
That old saying goes back to the 60's (?) when street and drag racing successfully usually meant a big block motor. Nowadays', the dopey kids with their hats on sideways "race" around in little rollerskates with motors under 200ci displacement. To get these toys moving, they have to rev the p!$$ out of the motors -- high rpm's is the only way they make power.
Having said that, the smaller of the two motors you describe can make up for its' lesser displacement in one of two ways: 1) increase the compression, which has a number of drawbacks, or 2) design the intake/exhaust/valve timing/injection to make power up higher in the rpm range, in this case 400rpm higher.
The tractor maker who used the smaller engine probably did it for reasons of economy and/or profit which would bore you more than the rest of this post. Yes, for tractor use, an engine with its' power lower in the rpm scale would be more user friendly.
The hydraulic pump output is important for running any implements (fel, phd, bh etc.) Here bigger is better.
The same applies to limited cat.1 vs. cat.1. I've seen too many posts where s-cut owners complain that their limited 3ph gave them problems mounting or using a phd or other implement.
I hope this helps.
Charley
OP
MikeFromVA
Silver Member
Thanks for the reply Charley. I thought that displacement was the more important number. In SCUTs the displacecment varies from 54.8 (Kubota BX2230) to 68.5 (MF GC2300)even though they only claim a difference of ½ HP. Shows how they can tweak the numbers to make them say what they want.
That is why I am asking about the Cat 1 vs. limited Cat 1. How can I tell which is which? I mean some SCUTs claim a full Cat 1 (NH & MF) and I want a full Cat 1 - how can I tell if they are blowing smoke?
That is why I am asking about the Cat 1 vs. limited Cat 1. How can I tell which is which? I mean some SCUTs claim a full Cat 1 (NH & MF) and I want a full Cat 1 - how can I tell if they are blowing smoke?
Bob_Skurka
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I think familyman gave an excellent explination. The higher gpm on the hydraulic pumps will give you some quicker movement of your FEL, in practical terms to users, unless there is a large difference, you probably won't notice a difference of less than 1 gpm on most machines. So from the user standpoint 5.5gpm versus 6.1 is going to feel very similar, technically 6.1 is better.
As far as the cat 1 versus limited cat 1 hitches, this is a point of debate that has occured several times. Someone posted a while ago that thier JD sales rep told them the hitch on the JD2210 is a Limited Cat 1 hitch. I never confirmed that. The BX hitch is pretty well documented to be limited. Some people have swapped out the lower link arms with larger ones, others have drilled theirs to alter the geometry, many have modified their implements. To my knowledge, and I admit this is limited, in the SUB-CUT category the MF and the NH are the two that have full Cat 1 hitches. Or at least it seems to be that way. There are other small tractors that occasionally get lumped into the SUB-CUT class, but really are small frame CUTs like the Kioti CK20 (which is basically the same size as a Kubota B7510 or NH TC21), at that size machine, all have Cat 1 hitches. Personally I would not buy a machine that had a limited Cat 1 hitch, but lots of other people do and are quite happy. You need to ask what implements you want to use and then let that help be a deciding factor. I swap implments between different machines, I need to have a Cat 1 hitch; others may not have that need.
In terms of reliability, understand anyone can buy a "lemon" of a machine from any brand, but that aside, I think you'll find that MF, NH, JD, and Kubota all make outstanding Sub-CUTs.
As far as the cat 1 versus limited cat 1 hitches, this is a point of debate that has occured several times. Someone posted a while ago that thier JD sales rep told them the hitch on the JD2210 is a Limited Cat 1 hitch. I never confirmed that. The BX hitch is pretty well documented to be limited. Some people have swapped out the lower link arms with larger ones, others have drilled theirs to alter the geometry, many have modified their implements. To my knowledge, and I admit this is limited, in the SUB-CUT category the MF and the NH are the two that have full Cat 1 hitches. Or at least it seems to be that way. There are other small tractors that occasionally get lumped into the SUB-CUT class, but really are small frame CUTs like the Kioti CK20 (which is basically the same size as a Kubota B7510 or NH TC21), at that size machine, all have Cat 1 hitches. Personally I would not buy a machine that had a limited Cat 1 hitch, but lots of other people do and are quite happy. You need to ask what implements you want to use and then let that help be a deciding factor. I swap implments between different machines, I need to have a Cat 1 hitch; others may not have that need.
In terms of reliability, understand anyone can buy a "lemon" of a machine from any brand, but that aside, I think you'll find that MF, NH, JD, and Kubota all make outstanding Sub-CUTs.
OP
MikeFromVA
Silver Member
Thanks Bob. I'm not sure that the SCUT is what I want/need anymore. I think that you said that at the beginning (that SCUT might be a tad too small). I would rather spend a few thousand more now and have what I need for the next 10 years. I am considering the JD 4110/4115 and the Kubota B7510/B2410. I will be spending this Friday at some dealers. I agree with you that I will not but a machine with a "Limited" Cat 1 hitch.
SteveM
Gold Member
I think this limited Cat 1 topic gets a little more 'press' than it deserves here on TBN. Whenever you buy an implement, I recommend you take your measuring tape and measure the width of the pins, and the height of the pins from the ground when the implement is lowered and raised. Then you compare these measurements against your 3pt arms to make certain they can spread wide enough, and lift high enough. It is not rocket science. You will find that regardless of the tractor type, all new implements require a little 'fiddling' to get things just right.
With the advent of the king kutter XB implements, there are now a nice set of cheap alternatives that fit the sub CUTs. On my small Mitsu 370 I have to turn regular implement pins inward, and I have to be very careful about the lifting height of an implement, since my arms dont go very high. The XB line fits my tractor perfectly.
With the advent of the king kutter XB implements, there are now a nice set of cheap alternatives that fit the sub CUTs. On my small Mitsu 370 I have to turn regular implement pins inward, and I have to be very careful about the lifting height of an implement, since my arms dont go very high. The XB line fits my tractor perfectly.
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
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SteveM . . . I tend to agree with you that the limited vs standard Cat 1 hitch probably is overstated, but it does keep coming up on a regular basis. One other issue other than reversing pins (which on many implements is not possible) is that lift height on some may not allow a full rotation on rear blades or rakes.
noTractorYet. . . In addition to the JD models, the 3 Kubotas to look at would be the B7510/B2410/B2610. The B2610 is the budget version of the B2410. The B7510 is a lower hp version of the others. Other tractors to consider would be Kioti CK20 (21hp), NH TC21DA or 24DA (21 & 24hp respecively) and their Farmall DX clones. Mahinda makes a small unit that seems to have a loyal following, but I can't recall the model number. I believe MF makes a small frame in similar hp rating.
I like the FEL of the NH/Farmall the best. Kioti's FEL is very similar. Those 3 would give you the best bucket visibility if that is important to you.
Kioti & Mahindra would be the heaviest of the tractors which would be an advantage if you are doing a lot of FEL or BH work. It would be a disadvantage if you are doing a lot of turf work.
In some areas Kioti & Mahindra are cheaper than JD/NH/Kubota, in other areas that is not really true. If there is a large price advantage, then I would likely lean to that machine if the dealer is an established dealer of good reputation.
noTractorYet. . . In addition to the JD models, the 3 Kubotas to look at would be the B7510/B2410/B2610. The B2610 is the budget version of the B2410. The B7510 is a lower hp version of the others. Other tractors to consider would be Kioti CK20 (21hp), NH TC21DA or 24DA (21 & 24hp respecively) and their Farmall DX clones. Mahinda makes a small unit that seems to have a loyal following, but I can't recall the model number. I believe MF makes a small frame in similar hp rating.
I like the FEL of the NH/Farmall the best. Kioti's FEL is very similar. Those 3 would give you the best bucket visibility if that is important to you.
Kioti & Mahindra would be the heaviest of the tractors which would be an advantage if you are doing a lot of FEL or BH work. It would be a disadvantage if you are doing a lot of turf work.
In some areas Kioti & Mahindra are cheaper than JD/NH/Kubota, in other areas that is not really true. If there is a large price advantage, then I would likely lean to that machine if the dealer is an established dealer of good reputation.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Kioti & Mahindra would be the heaviest of the tractors which would be an advantage if you are doing a lot of FEL or BH work. It would be a disadvantage if you are doing a lot of turf work.)</font>
Bob, I know the popular wisdom is that the heavier CK20 is a problem with turf work, but I don't find that to be true at all. I run mine all around on my lawn going back and forth all the time and don't have a problem with it tearing up the lawn, and that's with the loader and whatever implement on the back, even the backhoe. I think it would take a much heavier tractor than mine to cause a problem.
Also, the CK20 loader lift capacity, and 3pt lift capacity would be higher then the Kubota 7510, and has the sloped hood and curved arms as I believe you stated. I think it would be a good choice for notractoryet, and probably would save him some money while giving more standard features for less money. John
Bob, I know the popular wisdom is that the heavier CK20 is a problem with turf work, but I don't find that to be true at all. I run mine all around on my lawn going back and forth all the time and don't have a problem with it tearing up the lawn, and that's with the loader and whatever implement on the back, even the backhoe. I think it would take a much heavier tractor than mine to cause a problem.
Also, the CK20 loader lift capacity, and 3pt lift capacity would be higher then the Kubota 7510, and has the sloped hood and curved arms as I believe you stated. I think it would be a good choice for notractoryet, and probably would save him some money while giving more standard features for less money. John
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MikeFromVA
Silver Member
I've called my Kioti dealer 3 times acking for a price on the CK20 and I've not been called back. They happen to be the only dealer that is actually in the same town I am in but when I have to bend over backwards to get them to sell to me, I'm guessing that service is non-existant.
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MikeFromVA
Silver Member
I have an option to buy this JD4310 for $14,750 (original buyer must have changed their mind). No FEL or Hydro, but is it a good price?
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( They happen to be the only dealer that is actually in the same town I am in but when I have to bend over backwards to get them to sell to me, I'm guessing that service is non-existant. )</font>
If they won't call you back, I suppose you're right. However, I never try to get a price over the phone because I don't think tractor dealers believe you're serious unless you come look. Just my opinion. John
If they won't call you back, I suppose you're right. However, I never try to get a price over the phone because I don't think tractor dealers believe you're serious unless you come look. Just my opinion. John
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I have an option to buy this JD4310 for $14,750 (original buyer must have changed their mind). No FEL or Hydro, but is it a good price? )</font>
It's been too long since I was looking to remember what the price was when I saw one of those, but to give you a comparison, I paid $9985 for my Kioti CK20. With loader, backhoe and boxblade, $16,681.00. John
It's been too long since I was looking to remember what the price was when I saw one of those, but to give you a comparison, I paid $9985 for my Kioti CK20. With loader, backhoe and boxblade, $16,681.00. John
OP
MikeFromVA
Silver Member
Just talked to the Kioti dealer finally - the price I got for CK20 HST w/ FEL & 60"MMM was $15,615. The 4310 has a 30HP engine and 72"MMM & power reverser.
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
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<font color="green"> Bob, I know the popular wisdom is that the heavier CK20 is a problem with turf work, but I don't find that to be true at all. I run mine all around on my lawn going back and forth all the time and don't have a problem with it tearing up the lawn, and that's with the loader and whatever implement on the back, even the backhoe. I think it would take a much heavier tractor than mine to cause a problem.
</font>
John, It all depends on the specific soil conditions you have on your property.
As a general rule, what I wrote is correct. But it is just a general rule. Just like saying that you probably don't want to mow with AG tires. I have the ruts in my yard to prove it. And I have heavy hard clay. But when it is the least bit wet, driving a heavy tractor on it is a sure way to leave long lasting imprints (even a small tractor can be heavy as measured in pounds per square inch exerted on the ground at the tires and soft conditions can compound that problem). We can each site our specific examples, but I think in many cases we are best off to use somewhat general statements. I've read posts where people use 20hp tractors with 60" finish mowers and they never have a problem, I use a 24hp tractor with a 60" finish mower and it bogs down. So who is correct? We both are, but it is conditional, my lawn is thick and lush, his lawn is in a arrid part of the country and fairly thin. So the general rule I like to use is 3-to-5 PTO-hp per 12" of mower deck, and I think that general rule must then be applied by the ultimate user. Take a look at TILLERS, which is another regular topic. Many people are pulling large tillers behind small tractors and then they say they just set it at 1/2 depth and make 2 passes. To me that is admitting the tiller is too big because they can't use it to its capabilities, and they end up burning twice the fuel (or more) making multiple partial passes.
So I guess what I am saying is I won't argue that your specific CK20 won't leave marks in your specific yard under the specific conditions you use it, but I will stand by what I wrote, which is that heavier tractors may have an advantage over lighter machines when doing some tasks and may be at a disadvantage compared to lighter machines on other tasks. I believe that to be a very accurate general statement that each user can understand and that may well apply to many more people than my specific experiences.
</font>
John, It all depends on the specific soil conditions you have on your property.
As a general rule, what I wrote is correct. But it is just a general rule. Just like saying that you probably don't want to mow with AG tires. I have the ruts in my yard to prove it. And I have heavy hard clay. But when it is the least bit wet, driving a heavy tractor on it is a sure way to leave long lasting imprints (even a small tractor can be heavy as measured in pounds per square inch exerted on the ground at the tires and soft conditions can compound that problem). We can each site our specific examples, but I think in many cases we are best off to use somewhat general statements. I've read posts where people use 20hp tractors with 60" finish mowers and they never have a problem, I use a 24hp tractor with a 60" finish mower and it bogs down. So who is correct? We both are, but it is conditional, my lawn is thick and lush, his lawn is in a arrid part of the country and fairly thin. So the general rule I like to use is 3-to-5 PTO-hp per 12" of mower deck, and I think that general rule must then be applied by the ultimate user. Take a look at TILLERS, which is another regular topic. Many people are pulling large tillers behind small tractors and then they say they just set it at 1/2 depth and make 2 passes. To me that is admitting the tiller is too big because they can't use it to its capabilities, and they end up burning twice the fuel (or more) making multiple partial passes.
So I guess what I am saying is I won't argue that your specific CK20 won't leave marks in your specific yard under the specific conditions you use it, but I will stand by what I wrote, which is that heavier tractors may have an advantage over lighter machines when doing some tasks and may be at a disadvantage compared to lighter machines on other tasks. I believe that to be a very accurate general statement that each user can understand and that may well apply to many more people than my specific experiences.
TBrown
Silver Member
It sounds like the Kioti dealer quoted you list or nearly list. He might do better if you went in and saw him face to face, or he might not. When I was tractor shopping I visited the closest Kioti dealer to me, he had one CK20 HST w/FEL in stock, no mower, and basically told me the price was $13,800.. take it or leave it. I can't really blame him for quoting me list either, he knew he would sell it, if not to me then to someone else. The next closest dealer is an hour away from me, his price was $1000 less, but I'd have to wait. He didn't have any in stock.
I did find that prices vary widely from dealer to dealer, on the same tractor package, and I never tried to pitt one against the other. You might want to shop around a bit. Others have already pointed out comparable offerings from the big 3, and the Mahindra 2015 and Massy 1423 are two others you might want to consider.
Good luck
I did find that prices vary widely from dealer to dealer, on the same tractor package, and I never tried to pitt one against the other. You might want to shop around a bit. Others have already pointed out comparable offerings from the big 3, and the Mahindra 2015 and Massy 1423 are two others you might want to consider.
Good luck
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Just talked to the Kioti dealer finally - the price I got for CK20 HST w/ FEL & 60"MMM was $15,615. The 4310 has a 30HP engine and 72"MMM & power reverser. )</font>
Okay, that's a little high in my estimate, some bargaining should be possible. Earlier you gave a price for the John Deere without a loader or mower. Find out how much it would be with all you want. Price comparisons are not much good if you're only comparing part of one and all of the other. Sounds like to me that you really want the Deere, and if so, that's the one you should buy. However, I think you could do better with Mahindra, Kioti, Century or others and be just as happy. As I said before, I don't think dealers want to "deal" on the phone, they just think you're doing what you're doing, comparing. If you want to get a serious price, go dicker with the dealer in person. Let us know how much the Deere will be with the same equipment as you were quoted for the Kioti.
Bob Shurka. I didn't post my last post to be arguing, however, you say it's a general statement, but it was VERY specific and authoritatively so. </font><font color="blue" class="small">( Kioti & Mahindra would be the heaviest of the tractors which would be an advantage if you are doing a lot of FEL or BH work. It would be a disadvantage if you are doing a lot of turf work.)</font>
If you want to make a general statement, wouldn't it be better to say, "It may be a disadvantage depending on your soil/lawn conditons" instead?
My lawn is growing in sandy N. Florida dirt and if this tractor were too heavy, it would sure mess up the soil I have but doesn't. Driving my 3300 pound car around on my lawn doesn't damage it either.
John
Okay, that's a little high in my estimate, some bargaining should be possible. Earlier you gave a price for the John Deere without a loader or mower. Find out how much it would be with all you want. Price comparisons are not much good if you're only comparing part of one and all of the other. Sounds like to me that you really want the Deere, and if so, that's the one you should buy. However, I think you could do better with Mahindra, Kioti, Century or others and be just as happy. As I said before, I don't think dealers want to "deal" on the phone, they just think you're doing what you're doing, comparing. If you want to get a serious price, go dicker with the dealer in person. Let us know how much the Deere will be with the same equipment as you were quoted for the Kioti.
Bob Shurka. I didn't post my last post to be arguing, however, you say it's a general statement, but it was VERY specific and authoritatively so. </font><font color="blue" class="small">( Kioti & Mahindra would be the heaviest of the tractors which would be an advantage if you are doing a lot of FEL or BH work. It would be a disadvantage if you are doing a lot of turf work.)</font>
If you want to make a general statement, wouldn't it be better to say, "It may be a disadvantage depending on your soil/lawn conditons" instead?
My lawn is growing in sandy N. Florida dirt and if this tractor were too heavy, it would sure mess up the soil I have but doesn't. Driving my 3300 pound car around on my lawn doesn't damage it either.
John
