More tractor buying advice.

shoppintractors · Jun 29, 2004

Kioti has been moving this past weekend into a new, much expanded building in NC. I would look for the website to be back up and running very soon.

Don

JayC · Jun 29, 2004

I just noticed your reply above mine. Kioti's website has been down for going on a few days now. I know it was at least down on Saturday. I heard it was down on Thursday as well. I am just hoping they are preparing a big update. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Little Tractor is the only dealer site that I know of that has some specs on their site about Kioti machines. I am sure some other dealers have specs on their sites, too.

Little Tractor

You can use their price guides to find the specs and some more photos, etc. Since the new policy Kioti came up with regarding prices, their price guide is actually less useful when pricing Kioti items. They do list a whole bunch of other items, though.

KiotiJohn · Jun 29, 2004

( It seem like the next step up would cost me about 25% more... )
You should be able to get a Kioti CK20HST with loader for around the same price or LESS. A Kioti LB 1914, mechanical shuttle shift with loader for even less. These are both CUTs, with good 3pt hitch lift capacities with plenty of power. I've found that many people find so many more uses for the tractor after purchase than they ever imagined before hand. Some implements for the different SCUTs can cost more than standard models as they are more specialized for the "sometimes" more limited hitches. John

stuart · Jun 29, 2004

noTractoryet: In response to your PS:YES, you can get a toothbar for a JD FEL. I have a 430 and ordered one through Carver Equipment. They will want to know the size of the FEL when you contact them. Cost about 300$ with shipping.

Charlie_in_TX · Jun 29, 2004

Bob, Yankee, I tend to agree with TBrown. The Kioti CK20 and Mahindra 2015 are really in a class by themselves. I do this because of construction/weight. Granted, the big 3 make machines (TC21, B7500, JD4010) that compete with the first 2. A quick glance will show the difference. The Kubota and JD (My NH dealer also sold Kubotas, he didn't recomend NH for some reason, maybe no stock) are built on a 'C' channel ladder type frame just like their lawn mowers. The engine, tranny, axels, are bolted to the frame. The Kioti and Mahindra are built with a center cast iron tube type frame like the 'old school' tractors. The engine, tranny, axels are the frame.

The big 3 look like they are more ment for lawn mowing type work and with some FEL/dirt work thrown in. The Mahindra and Kioti look like they are ment for FEL/dirt work, and some mowing thrown in. I am not saying that makes one better than the other, just in a different class, ie they will appeal to a markets with different end uses.

Bob_Skurka · Jun 29, 2004

( Bob, Yankee, I tend to agree with TBrown. The Kioti CK20 and Mahindra 2015 are really in a class by themselves. I do this because of construction/weight. Granted, the big 3 make machines (TC21, B7500, JD4010) that compete with the first 2. A quick glance will show the difference. The Kubota and JD (My NH dealer also sold Kubotas, he didn't recomend NH for some reason, maybe no stock) are built on a 'C' channel ladder type frame just like their lawn mowers. The engine, tranny, axels, are bolted to the frame. The Kioti and Mahindra are built with a center cast iron tube type frame like the 'old school' tractors. The engine, tranny, axels are the frame.

The big 3 look like they are more ment for lawn mowing type work and with some FEL/dirt work thrown in. The Mahindra and Kioti look like they are ment for FEL/dirt work, and some mowing thrown in. I am not saying that makes one better than the other, just in a different class, ie they will appeal to a markets with different end uses. )

Charlie, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but it obviously is a small point.

Funny that you are arguing that the CK20 is different than the TC21/B7500 on the basis that it weighs more/is more heavily constructed; therefore fitting it into a LARGER size class? Many people seem to place the CK20 in the Sub-CUT category, which is diametrically opposed to the arguement you are bringing forth. There was even a thread a while back that lamented the fact that the CK20 is not considered a competitor to the JD2210 or the BX Kubotas on their respective websites (and I can't imagine anyone arguring that those are not Sub-CUTs).

I tend to think of the CK20 as a small frame CUT simply because of the size. Your issue of weight is interesting, but the physical size is still pretty much the same as every other small frame CUT so I think it is a small frame CUT. I do agree with you that different tractors fit different niches in the market. The CK20 probably is the least suitable for mowing, but perhaps much more suitable for dirt work, than any other small frame unit simply because of the weight factors.

Soundguy · Jun 29, 2004

( If you have some big jobs, you can always rely on rentals )

Naa... that's what a second tractor is for! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Get a cheap big older domestic tractor for the heavy stuff..

Soundguy

Yankee · Jun 29, 2004

Bob, I largely agree. Where it comes to the weight differences, I'd said "it depends." If someone buys a Kubota B and fills the tires, the comparison to the CK20, unfilled, doesn't yield a spit's worth of difference. If the Kioti owner opts to fill his, of course, it might yield a slightly better dirt working machine, all things being equal. But to that last point, they never are - differences in hydraulics, buckets and edges, and other specs, even parts fit and finish - conspire to make every machine (or design, anyway) different.

As you said, the Kioti is a CUT. The constant attempts to make it into "a class of its own" strikes me as a real stretch, and my-brand-vs-yours nonsense. We're not talking about differences like a CUT vs a dedicated TLB (think the B21) of the same HP, for example, or comparing a CUT to a Power Trac or a skid steer. THOSE are class differences. We're talking about spec differences - and for that matter, one material spec difference.

I won't comment in detail on the frame vs integral construction, as the subject has been hammered to death elsewhere. Suffice it to say that the Kioti, again, isn't alone in its construction among CUTs.

As far as classification, whether based on size (and I'd include weight), operational specs, drivetrain, configuration (e.g., front engine, MFWD or 2WD, 3PH, PTOs), intended use, HP, tires, targeted consumer group, or any of the common distinctions, the CK sits quite comfortably and normally in the CUT class. To maintain otherwise is to lose all perspective of tractor classes. Think of them and how they differ: row-crop tractors, orchard tractors, TLBs (dedicated, that is), tricycle, tree-farm and nursery narrows, double-enders, articulated, etc. And yes, UTs, CUTs, and sub-CUTs.

None of this is to say that one can't make an argument for Kioti, or any brand or model, for that matter, being in a class of its own based on some subjective criteria (like quality). I think that's a tall order too, though. I have a hard time seeing how any among the so-called major brands stand head and shoulders above the others, never mind Kioti.

cag · Jun 29, 2004

notractoryet Your right the kioti site is not on line for some reason or another. Keep checking from time to time. You will get all the info you need for kioti tractor's /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif cag

Bob_In_MN · Jun 29, 2004

I'll vote for going lighter and adding weights as well (if mowing is the primary reason for the tractor). I have rings around several of my oak trees from the front right (turf) tire on my 4010. More weight (in my case) would mean more damage.

Opposite of many people--weight is the primary reason I will probably never look seriously at Kioti. I can find other tractors that have similar HP, but are lighter. Weight is a cheap and easy thing to add to just about any tractor.

Now--one could argue that under similar stress loads over years of use, the ladder style frame of my 4010 will give out bofore the more traditional frame found on a CK20, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen (given what I use the trator to do).

As stated by others, I'm not knocking the Kioti in general. I like the looks and think the CK series will sell well. It's just not the tractor I would use for mowing.

Now--if I needed a CUT and planned on using it for FEL and BH work, the KIOTI would be at or near the top of my candidates.

Bob

MikeFromVA · Jun 30, 2004

The Kioti site is finally back up. I found the number of a local dealer and I got some prices. Here's what I learned.

CK20HST w/ FEL $13K add 60"MMM for $2700 or 60"Rear Mower for $1000 (says it has a nicer cut then MMM)

He said that that CK20 is smaller (but heavier) then the JD 2210 and told me that the comparable Kioti would be a LB1914 ($12K w/ FEL + same mower options). He really didn't even want to give me a price on the CK20 w/o HST - seems he really doesn't like not even having the shuttle shift.

He also explained that he expect a good size price increase in the very near future due to the increase in steel prices.

bandit67 · Jun 30, 2004

I spent the last 2 months researching all the Sub CUTs, and the 2 Kioti CUT models previously mentioned. After a lot of thinking, I ruled out the Kioti simply because of the weight for mowing - I will be doing a lot of dirt work the first 2 years, but will always be mowing with it.

Take a look at the pictures in my link below for the machine I settled on - The Case DX24E. Two things that really sold me on the Case New Holland machines were the true Cat 1 3ph (not so for the 2210 & BX series) and the curved loader arms (Kioti CK20 also has those) - visibility during loader work is very impressive (I've had the old dog-leg style loader arms in the past on a Sub). MF 2300 series looked good on paper, but the local dealer didn't seem interested in selling them (they kept pushing the JD).

My neighbor was looking my new machine over the other day, and was impressed with some of the features and build quality & sturdiness compared to his Kubota BX22 TLB. It seems to be a well designed machine (thanks to Kubota paving the way for the Subs). I got into the Case for $400 less than the NH TZ24DA because of the different paint scheme and headlights/grille.

I'm sure all the machines are good for years of reliable work. You just need to list all the pros & cons (features, price, and dealer support) for each one and then you should be able to narrow down the field to 1 or 2 models.

MikeFromVA · Jun 30, 2004

Bandit67 -

Awesome Pics of a nice tractor - how much did it run you?

dkb1215 · Jun 30, 2004

NoTractorYet,

Actually the most bang and quality of tractor for the buck is a Branson 3510. I looked at all the brands you mention here and the Branson was a notch above the others when you compare features and girth/craftmenship dollar for dollar. Check them out!!!!!!!!!! My 2 cents. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

db

Yankee · Jun 30, 2004

I think Branson's got a great story to tell. I wish they made a smaller tractor or two. The gentleman is looking at much smaller tractors than Branson makes, however.

Bob_Skurka · Jun 30, 2004

Yankee, I agree with you. We are talking about someone looking for a small tractor. I'm not sure that Branson has anything under 30, or maybe 35hp. Way out of the range of this discussion.

bandit67 · Jun 30, 2004

( Bandit67 -

Awesome Pics of a nice tractor - how much did it run you? )

Check out this thread for my reply to another guy that asked that same question:
What I paid...

familyman · Jun 30, 2004

Be sure to research the Kubota L2800/L3400.

Bob_Skurka · Jun 30, 2004

( Be sure to research the Kubota L2800/L3400. )

Familyman, the original post talks about having 7 acres, 2 of which is woods, 1 is swamp, that leaves about 4 acres he plans on working. He is looking at Sub-CUTS. Why would a L2800/L3400 be the right size tractor for him to look at?

familyman · Jul 1, 2004

Hi Bob!
The L2800/3400 tractors are in the price range of some of the other machines offered here, but offer a larger machine with a full cat.-1 hitch and Kubota qulality. I don't know if he wants hst or anything else that the other tractors might offer (live PTO, air conditioning, dancing girls, etc.) but I think that these Kubotas go largely unnoticed. Whether this is due to the fact that they are new for this year or because the dealers don't push them (had a dealer actually tell me they weren't made anymore...Sheesh!) 'cause they don't make enough on them isn't clear to me. Being practical, I'll often choose a stripped 1-ton truck over a 1/2 ton with cruise control and a 6 cd changer for the same money. Plus, it sounds like he has the room for a slightly larger machine.